Options for flash drive. HD

[flashjazzcat]

I agree: ATR mounting is an extremely useful and powerful facility, and the ability to swap partitions on the fly is most useful too. Sorry for misunderstanding and thinking you meant partitions in general.

 

Note that using Ultimate/SIDE (and I'll confine my remarks to that hardware), one can already perform discreet ATR selection by using the SIDE button immediately prior to the next disk access. The idea is that you first mount the entire selection of ATRs you wish to work with on different drive numbers, and then keep a mental note of their rotated positions after each button press (which moves - in the case of three images - D1:->D3:, D2:->D1:, D3:->D2:). Not the most intuitive method when using lots of images, I'll admit, but the only way to do it when on-screen feedback and PBI IRQs are not available.

Edited February 4, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[+Ripdubski]

Anyone thats wants to edit the spreadsheet, PM your email address and I'll add you. I don't want it completely open so it doesn't get wiped out. Is Blackbox still available for purchase? I thought it was along the lines of MIO.

[flashjazzcat]

I think BBs are available pre-owned only. There was lengthy talk of a new production run in 2011, but it came to nought. AFAIK, BB has similar features to MIO (printer, R:, SCSI, RAM), but according to MetalGuy66 the MIO firmware is "much faster" than that of the BlackBox. BBs are cool, but they're way big. For that matter, so is MIO once you get the SCSI enclosure and PSU set up.

[+Ripdubski]

Received the MyIDE ][ cart. Dug out the XE, setup with LCD via monitor. Booted empty cart, seems to work fine. Now need the time to actually do something with it. Project for the weekend. BTW, the cart is really superb craftsmanship right down to the label placement.

[+Ripdubski]

So this question is something I guess I mis-understood. Am I understanding correctly that I cannot flash the MyIDE ][ cart contents without SIO2PC or flash programmer? So basically I can only put stuff on the CF itself. In which case I can't change the DOS to Sparta.

[flashjazzcat]

Better ask over at AtariMax. I have no idea whether MyBIOS allows you to boot the SDX update ATR from a FAT partition.

 

You're going to keep running into situations in which it's useful to have SIO storage of some kind.

[+Ripdubski]

This hobby is getting expensive.

[Marius]

So this question is something I guess I mis-understood. Am I understanding correctly that I cannot flash the MyIDE ][ cart contents without SIO2PC or flash programmer? So basically I can only put stuff on the CF itself. In which case I can't change the DOS to Sparta.

 

You can re-flash the MyIDE ][ from the FAT32 loader, but BEWARE (!) If you make a mistake and/or something goes wrong you are done, since the only solution of re-flashing the cart is the FAT32 loader if you don't have Sio2PC or whatever. So yes, you can put the .BIN file that the MaxFlash Studio creates on the FAT32 partition and re-flash the cart.

 

And again: if you decide to turn that MyIDE 2 thing in a SDX cartridge, which is nice... you lose a lot of features too. You lose MyBIOS then, and you lose FAT32 then. So there is no step back without SIO2PC solution.

 

Could you describe what you want to do? What is your goal with the device?

 

With the FAT32 loader and the soft version of MyIDE you can do already a lot of things.

When you want to run SDX once in a while you also can load SDX from FAT32, but yes that is a bit slow, since you have to load the 256K everytime you want to use SDX.

[+Ripdubski]

I got it doing what I wanted. I am going to get a SIDE as well, with my intent of using MyIDE ][ for my son. So MyDOS is no issue. I was just curious about the flash process.

 

Got a 4GB CF card, initialized, created a partition, formatted, wrote DOS, reboot, enable basic, wash hands. Boot, MyBIOS, any key, READY prompt. Yay! save to disk, load from disk, dos, Yay!

Edited February 13, 2014 by Ripdubski

[+Ripdubski]

I have the MyIDE ][ doing what i want, but have one point of confusion to resolve.

 

Following the instructions for creatung the CF card, I have 4GB card, I initialized it with Fat 32=Y, APT=Y. I created four 16MB partitions assigned to d1 through d4.

 

When i look at the CF card on Windows I see 3 partitions.

- 1 Raw which I format as Fat32 and copy XEX files to - no issues (950 MB).

- 1 unidentified healthy partition, which I think is the APT one (950 MB). If I init with APT=N,I dont see this one and only the other 2 are present.

- 1 image space partition (1.8 GB). I think this is for the ATR images to be placed, but cant figure out how to do it. Maybe I need SIO2PC to load it?

 

My confusion lies around the APT=Y and what it does? I know its Atari Partition Table. Does it change how the cards partition table is written or is it only within one of the partitions, which doesnt make sense to me.

Which partition is holding the MyDOS 16 MB disks?

 

Thanks.

Wade

[flashjazzcat]

MyBIOS's acknowledgement of APT is completely perfunctory, in the sense that the APT partition type is written out and that is where support begins and ends. Nothing will find its way into the APT space unless you use APT tools (APT FDISK 4, APT MYIDE2 SDX soft driver, etc), and if these work alongside anything MYBIOS put on the disk, it's by lucky accident rather than design.

Edited February 17, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[rockdoc2010]

WOW! My head is spinning at the intensity of this thread. Two years ago when I bought my internal MYIDE for my 1200XL there were some installation issues. I finally did get past the black screen that was probably caused by gleefully performing way to many updates simultaneously, svid mods to 2.1, myide, atarimax 512k upgrade,being an angry drunk when I got green screens or black screens... finely returning it to where it would say 'Waiting for IDE" and not even having a location picked out for the hard drive.

 

Graduated from university and worked like crazy for a year and a half only to find that my unit is now obsolete and I havent even had the chance to play one of these umpteen thousands of titles that have become available after the release of PC to ATARI technology.

 

The eprom (how quaint!) that has mydos, mybios should still do the job just fine but I only got bumped up to Atari Basic rev C. during that offering in FEB of 2012.

 

The SIO2USB unit that I have will serve my trifecta of XE computers that all arrived from BEST basically NEW IN BOX and working.. what a concept!

 

I have the same amount of time split between the 1200xl and the 130xe programming in basic, oss basic xl and then oss basic xe for a short time as I was shipped off to patrol the worlds oceans once I was told I had to stop playing and grow up. But I was one of only 5 owners of a computer on board the Aircraft Carrier for two more years until I went ST for three years until things changed to the point of the last time I fired up Dos2.5 was back in 86'

 

I am going to put the 512K upgrade and the MYIDE as previously planned, adding an internally mounted SIO2USB all into to 1200XL.

 

I have just received the SIO2SD for internal mounting, An ultimate 1mb 2K14, a VBXE2.1 for the XL and stereo to go along with the 200 Euros I spent the last two months.. I've never even seen a Euro or one that was peeing either.

 

So the decisions are heading straight to a dead heat between the desk yacht 1200XL that provides a great perch for my sporty 600xl as to who really gets the upgrades. The 1027 that I just gutted out will be a perfect hang on back addition for the 600xl for the numerous improvements that just cant be crammed into that MG. It has the space for the 1020, a hard drive power for the three items to also include battery power and a 8" widescreen TV color TFT LED for when your tired of programming and its time for games.

 

Anyway Thanks for the intense three pages of thread in the last few days of discourse as I am pretty much just tasked with shaping a program of implementing the mods appropriate for my needs and nefarious machinations of acquiring a fleet of mutated machines.

[+Ripdubski]

I have the MyIDE ][ doing what i want, but have one point of confusion to resolve.

 

Following the instructions for creatung the CF card, I have 4GB card, I initialized it with Fat 32=Y, APT=Y. I created four 16MB partitions assigned to d1 through d4.

 

When i look at the CF card on Windows I see 3 partitions.

- 1 Raw which I format as Fat32 and copy XEX files to - no issues (950 MB).

- 1 unidentified healthy partition, which I think is the APT one (950 MB). If I init with APT=N,I dont see this one and only the other 2 are present.

- 1 image space partition (1.8 GB). I think this is for the ATR images to be placed, but cant figure out how to do it. Maybe I need SIO2PC to load it?

 

My confusion lies around the APT=Y and what it does? I know its Atari Partition Table. Does it change how the cards partition table is written or is it only within one of the partitions, which doesnt make sense to me.

Which partition is holding the MyDOS 16 MB disks?

 

Thanks.

Wade

I've posted this twice in Atarimax forums and each time the topic is deleted! Anyone here have the answers aside from the APT one fjc answered?

[phoenixdownita]

I've posted this twice in Atarimax forums and each time the topic is deleted! Anyone here have the answers aside from the APT one fjc answered?

Apologies for the confusing use of partitions but it means 3 things wrt Atari/MyIDE/SDX:

1) partition as in block device partitions (like in Windows/Dos)

2) partition for MyIDE, a special area that contains up to 16 16MB ATRs, each is called a partition

3) partition for SDX, a named chunk of the APT area

 

So for a MyIDE+FAT32+APT card you have all 3:

3 block device type partitions: 1 FAT32, 1 MyBIOS image/partition space, 1 APT partition space.

Inside MyBIOS image/partition space you can have 16 "partitions" each is roughly up to 1 16MB hard disk.

Inside APT space you can have SDX partitions.

 

So the FAT32 is obviously what FAT32Loader accesses and is shareable, compatible with other devices (Side2 for example).

The MyIDE2 partition is the one containing both atari images as well as atari partitions accessible from MyBIOS and it's a MyIDE thing.

The APT partition is for SDX consumption only, and in principle should be shareable among devices but it seems MyIDE2 does not play by the book here.

 

Afaik the first partition on the CF is the FAT32 followed by the MyBIOS space followed by APT space.

To get MyBIOS space to get big for "partitions" you should enter 3 when MyBIOS disk preparation asks you, this way you have space for quite a few 16MB MyBIOS "partitions".

 

MyBIOS preparation tool always sets FAT32 at 50%, then the rest is MyBIOS image/partition, MyBIOS partition space tend to be quite small as default (3 or 4 16MB ATR max) but if you bump it to 3 when requested I believe you can reach space for 16), the rest is for MyBIOS images [up to 1024 I believe, each can contain up to an ATR of 720K so total it's around 1GB].

If you chose to do APT space you are actually splitting in half the MyBIOS image/partition space, in specific you are cutting in image space if that matters to you.

 

I tried to prepare APT space with MyBIOS + MyIDE2 version of SDX and use the resulting CF over Side2/U1MB SDX to no avail, it appears that MyIDE2 considers the size to be 2 times what Side2/U1MB SDX does, but that is another story, that is to say you may not be able to share the APT space with other devices, FAT32 is fine while obviously MyBIOS image/partition is proprietary to start with.

 

Hope this info help.

 

Hope the explanation helps a little. In order to use the MyIDE2 SDX rom image successfully you need to edit the config file appropriately, there's a little tutorial at AtariMax.

Edited February 18, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[candle]

APT was designed to end compatibility issues and enforce media interchangelabity between various devices

side (Jon aka FlashJazzCat) was first to implement the standard

Konrad (Drac030) followed with implementation for IDE+

thus you can safely swap your CF cards between IDE+ and SIDE/SIDE-II - what is the deal with MyIDE - don't know

APT lets you hold virtually unlimited number of ATR images as partitions, with any size and any file-system installed - this is not limited to any particular DOS, they can be of BOOT type - ie games originally released as disks and everything will work as long as they use standard SIO for communication

 

bottom line - if you want APT - use two above (SIDE or IDE+) and you'll find very knowlegable and supportive community to help you with your issues here

if you want to stick to closed software, that might suit your needs, but intended for gamers only - stick to myide - you already know how they handle your questions

[flashjazzcat]

And: APT is NOT SDX only. Only the SIDE soft-drivers require SDX. With Ultimate, Incognito and IDE Plus APT implementations, you can use any DOS you please (including MyDOS).

[Marius]

if you want to stick to closed software, that might suit your needs, but intended for gamers only - stick to myide - you already know how they handle your questions

 

This is an interesting reply. I agree with the part 'they' handle your questions. That -indeed- is absolutely something that needs improvement 'there' ... it's a one-man show, and it is love it or leave it indeed.

 

That MyIDE is for gamers only is completely wrong, and can only be said by someone who does not use MyIDE at all. I own IDE+, SIDE2 and MyIDE and all three devices are used by me, and although I love gaming, I'm more a coder and musician.

 

In fact... MyIDE is still the only device from the 3 mentioned devices that let me do my Business Administration the way I want to do it (being able to chose another administration disk while the spreadsheet is running). Same thing with coding. MyIDE is the only device that let me chose a desired partition while I'm running my assembler.

(And yes: this happens).

 

I'm not a huge fan of MyIDE anymore. That has everything to do indeed with the way 'they' handle questions. But apart from that, it's a very nice device with some features that I would love to see on IDE+ and SIDE (and again: I'm not just a gamer)

[flashjazzcat]

That MyIDE is for gamers only is completely wrong, and can only be said by someone who does not use MyIDE at all. I own IDE+, SIDE2 and MyIDE and all three devices are used by me, and although I love gaming, I'm more a coder and musician.

 

In fact... MyIDE is still the only device from the 3 mentioned devices that let me do my Business Administration the way I want to do it (being able to chose another administration disk while the spreadsheet is running). Same thing with coding. MyIDE is the only device that let me chose a desired partition while I'm running my assembler.

(And yes: this happens).

 

I'm not a huge fan of MyIDE anymore. That has everything to do indeed with the way 'they' handle questions. But apart from that, it's a very nice device with some features that I would love to see on IDE+ and SIDE (and again: I'm not just a gamer)

 

It's a subjective point, but since the subject came up, a quick visual comparison of MYBIOS and IDE+ / Ultimate / Incognito's firmware and software toolkits should speak for themselves. Not to mention the amply documented APT spec and software API which relates to the latter interfaces. I'd take Candle's remark simply to mean that the APT devices are primarily intended to function as hard disks rather than colourful gaming platforms, although as it happens they have some powerful gaming-oriented capabilities built-in (ATR mounting and rotation, etc, not to mention the SIDE loader which it must be said is quite separate to the device firmware, although it interfaces with the firmware via the proper SIO channels). But none of this game-oriented functionality comes at the expense of a well-documented and compatible API and partitioning scheme, and does not detract - via scrolling rainbow displays, hot-keys, or the desire to have the partitioning software built into the firmware - from what is a hard disk solution with great compatibility between implementations.

 

Regarding choosing desired partitions on the fly, etc: it sounds like the software in question was not really intended for use with hard disks at all, and therefore requires a kind of virtual floppy-disk environment. Many games require just the same thing (hence the ATR mounting and rotation which we developed), so it's hardly surprising that an interface which seems already angled towards gaming naturally includes the facilities required to make inflexible legacy software work with your hard disk. If I was using an assembler which required me to unmount and mount hard disk partitions mid-session, I'm afraid I'd use a different assembler, and this regardless of whether or not the HDD firmware allowed dynamic rotation of partitions,

 

Basically you take your choice: colourful, proprietary software which is completely incompatible with the emerging (and long overdue) APT standard but yet which apparently works very well, or compatible, OS-compliant implementations (IDE Plus, Ultimate, Incognito, and SDX drivers for SIDE, SIDE2, Incognito, MyIDE, MyIDE II) with compatible tools, an extremely powerful partition editor, and ongoing firmware and tool chain development.

 

Point being, that when the most experienced coder of hard disk drivers on the A8 scene (KMK) draws up a new partition table design and you decide to ignore it when designing your own proprietary interface, it should come as no surprise when a lot of difficult questions come your way, especially when you afford APT the passing acknowledgement of making your partitioning software stick the ID in the partition table and that's all. Using APT would not have detracted one iota from the functionality of MyIDE, indeed it would have enhanced it, and saved a whole lot of complexity and confusion. Of course there is nothing except good sense compelling manufacturers to employ APT, but not to do so strikes me as similar to someone releasing an operating system which does not read FAT32. Of course FAT32 has been well established for years, while APT is but 2-3 years old, and while it's probably not perfect, it's the nearest we have to a standard, and only because someone had the foresight to realize a standard was required. In no way was I absolutely compelled (as far as I recall) to use APT for the SIDE firmware, but I jumped at the chance, because I could see that it would benefit everyone in the long-run. While in the past there were no standards from which to deviate, now that there are, the fact MyBIOS uses yet another proprietary partition table design speaks volumes in itself.

 

But then again, as I've already said to ProWizard, it would be quite a boring world if everything was the same, and if MyIDE suits people, it's natural they should use it. As I have also remarked in a separate conversation: no matter how good product A, and how superior the author supposes it to be, there will always be those who prefer to use product B. Moreover, this does not mean there is anything wrong with A... nor even necessarily with product B's users.

 

However, coming back to Candle's point, while people are free to use whatever they wish, the game-oriented bias of MYBIOS seems pretty implicit in the design. Downplaying this, especially when the API (whatever it is) and too chain is compared to the APT equivalents, seems quite contrived. In addition, while it's understandable that users ask "how does MYBIOS work with APT, since it created APT space for me?", it's also understandable that I a) don't know how or if MYBIOS plays with APT, and b) don't propose to trouble myself with the job of finding out.

 

Splitting the media into three sections (FAT, MYBIOS and APT) seems convoluted, as if the designers didn't want to use APT, but simultaneously wanted to somehow bill their device as "compatible" with it. All this compatibility allows, in point of fact, is to use my SDX drivers: this is why I described the support as perfunctory. However, the MyIDE folks have a rare talent for recycling / adapting / repurposing third-party software.

Edited February 18, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[Marius]

@FJC

 

Indeed. I absolutely don't understand why Sijmen did add apt in the MyBIOS menu, while he has no plans at all to support apt.

 

I still don't see what MyBIOS has to do with gaming, and another thing… MyBIOS goes back to around 2000 or 2001, and I don't believe apt was there yet. One could also blame The Blackbox that it does not follow apt, but it's simply the format once is chosen, and I don't see why suddenly MyIDE should be changed to follow apt.

 

But then I repeat my first sentence: I absolutely don't understand why Sijmen did add apt in the myBIOS menu, while he has no plans at all to support apt.

 

Or you support it, or you don't, and it's more confusing than helpful for MyIDE users that he implanted that feature.

 

The biggest trouble with MyIDE is that it is a one-man project. He does hardly know how to cooperate, and he wants to do it all the way he thinks thinks should be done. He does not share any source, so when there are problems, people has to search and search before it is clear why things don't work the way they should. As soon as you find something serious, he acts offended.

 

So I again… I agree with candle that the way 'they' react on questions is a big big problem.

 

But on the other side, I seriously would recommend anyone involved with the other hard disk interfaces… just use a month or so MyIDE… (and please forget SDX for one moment too, it is definitely not everything) and learn from all the good parts of MyIDE. And then… implant the good things of MyIDE in SIDE/Ultimate and IDE+ … and then the most perfect HD interface is found.

Till then… I will have to switch from MyIDE, to SIDE, to IDE+ and back.

[flashjazzcat]

Yes, MyBIOS has been around for a long time, but can you tell me how many major revisions and rewrites it has gone through in that time? After SIDE came out, MyIDE II was pretty hot on its heels, and I have absolutely no doubt that MyBIOS underwent a big rewrite (and am I wrong in saying the partition scheme changed yet again?). The partitioning software suddenly became part of the firmware. It was the biggest change in MyBIOS I can recall witnessing in a long time, so there was an opportunity right there to adopt APT, which was - at the time MyIDE II was being designed - already well documented. I even sent Sijmen the links to the APT and corresponding API documents.

 

Regarding MyIDE being a one-man project, well - what can I say: on the PBI software side, so is Ultimate/Incognito/SIDE and IDE Plus 2.0. All developers experience stress and frustration at times (especially when the workload becomes huge, as I have found it to do), and it's often difficult for developers to work together. And everyone tends to believe their way is "the right way". I can absolutely guarantee that even the most respected and experienced developers fall prey to that way of thinking now and then.

 

Regarding transplanting the good things of MyIDE... well, MyIDE II already transplanted virtually everything good about SIDE, so perhaps the favour could be returned... but seriously, other than a menu-based disk rotation facility (which I think we can get by without), I'm not aware of any other killer features worth re-implementing. If there are any others, I would like to hear about them.

 

But as said before: perfection is a difficult thing to achieve, and there are things I'd still love to add to the PBI BIOSes, but this would also require a further investment of time from the original hardware developer.

[Marius]

Regarding choosing desired partitions on the fly, etc: it sounds like the software in question was not really intended for use with hard disks at all, and therefore requires a kind of virtual floppy-disk environment. Many games require just the same thing (hence the ATR mounting and rotation which we developed), so it's hardly surprising that an interface which seems already angled towards gaming naturally includes the facilities required to make inflexible legacy software work with your hard disk. If I was using an assembler which required me to unmount and mount hard disk partitions mid-session, I'm afraid I'd use a different assembler, and this regardless of whether or not the HDD firmware allowed dynamic rotation of partitions,

 

I think this is a strange way of looking at the atari nature. When you design a harddisk solution for A8, you (of course) think of the original nature of the system, and that is with the use of floppies in mind. You can not blame software like Synassembler that it was not intend to use with harddisk. That program exists, so the harddisk interface/system (which I have for convenience) should be as close to the original operation.

 

With a diskdrive you can flip disks, or exchange disks while you are running your software.

 

Without getting this into a which interfaces is best thread, I really recommend IDE+ (which has the interrupt key) to let this be possible.

 

The Assembler I am using is not requiring partition swapping, but I as a user require this! I already mentioned that somewhere else. When I am coding I am not coding on my partition that is full of important data. I do not want to risk any data loss. But when busy, I suddenly need a routine from a Library that is not on a mounted partition. So with MyIDE, or blackbox... it is one click on a key/button, and tada... I chose my partition I need, mount it, and I continue working.

 

It is not a stupidity, it is a feature, and a desired one.

 

It has nothing to do with a choice of software, it has everything to do with a feature I like on blackbox/myide, and which (in my point of view) is needed to be as compatible with the original atari nature.

 

It is the strength of ape, Sio2SD and that kind of equipment. It is even the strength of the original 810/1050 diskdrive.

So why not implant this in IDE+?

 

Choosing not to is the same stubbornness as Sijmen has.

 

I'm not into a myide-vs-the rest of the interfaces thread. In fact, I do not feel to defend MyIDE or Mr. Atari. I simply see a need for a feature that is missing on the other interfaces. Now without that feature, I'm 'doomed' to use MyIDE ...

[Marius]

The partitioning software is not a part of MyIDE firmware. The partitioning software is on the harddisk, stored somewhere (I don't know where) and as soon HELP is pressed, the machine state is saved to harddisk, and the partition software is loaded from harddisk. As soon as the partitioning software is exit, the machine state is loaded back from harddisk and the machine continues its operation.

 

And for me is the realtime swapping feature the only thing I would fight for.

[flashjazzcat]

I think there's a clear distinction between floppy images and hard disk partitions. I have nothing against ATR rotation facilities, and to me this is an acceptable concession to the original nature of the hardware: i.e. a game platform. Partition mounting is something quite different. I like to do that via DOS, from the command line. That's a personal preference and it just so happens that the nature of the hardware for which I develop currently dictates that's the way things have to work anyway. I certainly do not want my hard disk partitions moving around when I press the SIDE button.

 

In any case: re my earlier remarks concerning products A and B. People should use whatever they like, but the developers are also entitled to an opinion, and this ultimately influences the consumer's decision to use this or that solution.

 

From the APT camp: partition mounting will become less important when SDX has the 32MB limit lifted. This from two non-gamers, mind you.

 

As for the MyIDE partitioning software: I assumed (from looking at it) that it was packed into some corner of the OS ROM. In any case, I'm of the opinion that partitioning isn't something you do three times per session. Call up some dynamic-partition mounting tool from ROM mid-session? I could perhaps be talked into this, at length. Call up the partitioning software mid-session? WHY?

[Marius]

@fjc

 

Yes I agree about that. When it would work 'on the fly' with ATR's or other kind of floppy-images that would be ok ofcourse too.

And yes, I also agree that partitions (then) don't have to be so swapable

 

Anyway, I was hoping that when the new IDE+ were released (with the IRQ button) that some kind of on-the-fly-mounting feature would be enabled. So I am still hoping that will be created once.

 

In earlier releases of myide that partition software was in the OS, but since a few versions that isn't anymore.

But let's stop talking about myide... it's better to concentrate on how to make the other devices even better. I really enjoyed the idea that i'm 'doomed' with myide

[flashjazzcat]

Anyway, I was hoping that when the new IDE+ were released (with the IRQ button) that some kind of on-the-fly-mounting feature would be enabled. So I am still hoping that will be created once.

Is the IRQ button working yet in software? What happens when you press it, if so? I don't have an IDE Plus equipped with the button, so I can't test it.