Minter / TxK / T2K / and stuff

[sh3-rg]

I assume you're talking about some of my Facebook posts

Ever so slightly self-important?

 

They were in negotiations FOR ALMOST A YEAR.

Negotiations implies a two-way process.

 

P.S. USING CAPS DOESN'T MAKE YOUR POINT ANY MORE SPECIAL... it just makes you look a little unhinged if anything.

 

 

I'm not taking sides here but when Zynga was ripping off the games of indie developers the community was in an uproar. How is this any different?

Because Jeff Minter is Tempest 2000 and "Atari" is not Atari.

 

From what I've seen and read, TxK appears to be a straight up Tempest game. Not just a clone or "inspired by". It's a modern, evolved version of Tempest in the same vein as Space Invaders Extreme or Pac-Man Championship Edition.

You're in the Jaguar forum... you have actually heard of Tempest 2000, right?

[Emehr]

Because Jeff Minter is Tempest 2000 and "Atari" is not Atari.

So you're saying Jeff Minter owns the Tempest brand and is allowed to make Tempest games.

 

You're in the Jaguar forum

Ugh, didn't even notice.

[sh3-rg]

So you're saying Jeff Minter owns the Tempest brand and is allowed to make Tempest games.

No. If that's what I was saying, I would say exactly that.

[Lost Dragon]

What i take sh3-rg as saying is this:

 

 

Tempest 2000 is Jeff's very specific, personal vision as it were of how a 'modern' version of Tempest should of been done, given the hardware it was running on (by that aspect from what i've read Jeff experimented with the hardware in areas and was 'scolded by Atari' for doing so, as Jeff put it, running chips backwards etc to conjure up some very interesting effects.It's Jeff's tinkering and creative thinking that really makes Tempest 2000 the 'better' game for many of us than say Tempest X3.

 

I've had the Ace scans put up, but earlier we saw (on paper at least) how the Bitmap Bros would of done a modern version of Tempest 2000 on hardware then avaiable (PC/ST/Amiga, maybe arcade?)...basically it's kinda the soul or character of Minter given form in Tempest 2000, rather than just another coding job to do, well that's how i see it.

 

If Atari had given Tempest 2000 to someone else to do, i wager it'd been a very different kettle of Otter Spunk :-) (Unity Ref).

[Emehr]

Saying "Jeff Minter is Tempest 2000" is completely beside the point. He was paid by Atari to program Tempest 2000 for the Jaguar. That doesn't give him permission to make Tempest on his own. He doesn't own the brand.

[AtariORdead]

I think people are letting the fact that its Minter vs Atari and are naturally backing the little guy without being objective.

 

Atari own the IP. Whatever you think of them it belongs to them. Minter has a strong link to the brand but it entitles him to nothing.

 

He was even advertising it as a sequel and even named it TxK for christs sake.

 

Lets spin it a bit, If EA for example released a game calle attack of the mutant giraffes and advertised it as a sequel to one of jeffs games and did not have permission people would be disgusted and quite rightly pointing out how wrong it is.

 

Because its the other way round, people are trying to excuse Minter when in fact he is in the wrong, we all know where he was going with this. Hell, might as well have someone release a game called super mario cousins and say its a true sequel to Mario and make it look exactly like Marioworld and according to some of you Nintendo would be in the wrong to put a stop to it.

[Bill Loguidice]

My primary problem is with the poor public "argument" (Facebook posting) from Atari, quoting game reviews as "evidence" that TxK has a direct connection to Tempest series games. It's not only tone deaf, but also shows a surprising lack of professionalism. Their argument would be much more sympathetic if they just left it at a general statement of feeling that their intellectual property was being leveraged without permission. Public forums are not places to air your grievances in that manner. Minter obviously escalated the discourse, but he's just one person and should not have set the tone for how Atari - who should be acting like a professional company - responded.

 

While I appreciate Atari's core argument (putting the juvenile nonsense aside), it's a BIG step to prove what they're claiming. As I said in the Facebook comments, "(TxK as...) A completely new game in the spirit of a previous game is not intellectual property, trademark, or copyright infringement. Every company has done it, from Atari back when it was still the original company to the most notable developers/publishers today." As over-the-top as his reaction has been, I think that has been Minter's point this whole time. Regardless, both sides could have handled this a LOT better.

[AtariORdead]

My primary problem is with the poor public "argument" (Facebook posting) from Atari, quoting game reviews as "evidence" that TxK has a direct connection to Tempest series games. It's not only tone deaf, but also shows a surprising lack of professionalism. Their argument would be much more sympathetic if they just left it at a general statement of feeling that their intellectual property was being leveraged without permission. Public forums are not places to air your grievances in that manner. Minter obviously escalated the discourse, but he's just one person and should not have set the tone for how Atari - who should be acting like a professional company - responded.

 

While I appreciate Atari's core argument (putting the juvenile nonsense aside), it's a BIG step to prove what they're claiming. As I said in the Facebook comments, "(TxK as...) A completely new game in the spirit of a previous game is not intellectual property, trademark, or copyright infringement. Every company has done it, from Atari back when it was still the original company to the most notable developers/publishers today." As over-the-top as his reaction has been, I think that has been Minter's point this whole time. Regardless, both sides could have handled this a LOT better.

I agree Atari could have handled it better, and while I take your point about about completely new games in the spirit of an older game, what can't be ignored is the similarities in name T2K=TxK and the fact that Minter himself has lauded it as a sequel, the fact that the main charcter you control is identical, plus the fact Minter has directly worked on its prequels all add to the fact that this is not your standard ripoff. Minter has done nothing to help himself by doing everything he can to point these things out.

 

some quotes

 

TxK will "do for T2K what T2K itself did for its ancient arcade ancestor," said Minter

 

What I want to do is make a game that is close to the pure essence of Tempest 2000

 

started from a Tempest 2000-style basis

 

We want to give people the Tempest 2000 sequel that I think many expected

 

Most of the core Tempest 2000 game mechanics will remain intact

 

 

I mean come on, that is all from one single interview.

[cimerians]

My primary problem is with the poor public "argument" (Facebook posting) from Atari, quoting game reviews as "evidence" that TxK has a direct connection to Tempest series games. It's not only tone deaf, but also shows a surprising lack of professionalism. Their argument would be much more sympathetic if they just left it at a general statement of feeling that their intellectual property was being leveraged without permission. Public forums are not places to air your grievances in that manner. Minter obviously escalated the discourse, but he's just one person and should not have set the tone for how Atari - who should be acting like a professional company - responded.

 

While I appreciate Atari's core argument (putting the juvenile nonsense aside), it's a BIG step to prove what they're claiming. As I said in the Facebook comments, "(TxK as...) A completely new game in the spirit of a previous game is not intellectual property, trademark, or copyright infringement. Every company has done it, from Atari back when it was still the original company to the most notable developers/publishers today." As over-the-top as his reaction has been, I think that has been Minter's point this whole time. Regardless, both sides could have handled this a LOT better.

 

 

The poor public judgement is a slap to all our faces.

 

This started way back with the KC Munchkin case and you saw all these pacman type games in the arcades all over of eating things around a maze.

 

This "phenomenon" is overflowing on the appstores. There are Lode Runner clones, Breakout and Tempest clones you name it.

 

If I was Jeff and had the cash I definitely would not back down to these people.

 

"Entitled to protect your IP" is thrown around like the first amendment. Literally.

[sh3-rg]

Minter has done nothing to help himself by doing everything he can to point these things out.

some quotes

"Atari" let "Tempest 2000" lapse. They've never attempted to have any tube shooter pulled, including but not limited to multiple direct Tempest/2000 clones on iOS, games that even use the name "Tempest" in the title.

 

Minter might have been naive to think they no longer cared seeing their apparent lack of interest and it looks as though he went about things as someone who enjoys making great games that people love, and maybe not enough like a businessman. But I believe he can be forgiven for thinking that TxK was different enough to Tempest 2000 to not be a problem for the simple fact that Atari in the 90s told him TX3 was different enough to Tempest 2000 to mean he deserved $0.00 royalties, despite it having Tempest 2000 as an unlockable.

 

"Atari" own the IP, nobody disputes that. What myself and others take issue with is the way they go about their litigious campaigns with little thought or consideration for the people to whom "Atari" once meant something. Just look at the half-arsed 12-page document issued to Llamasoft last June. Littered with inaccuracy, threatening, negative. This is Jeff Minter FFS! If someone there had a fucking clue regarding the long history of Tempest or the man Jeff Minter, they could have picked up a phone or taken a trip to sunny Wales and you know what we'd be seeing now? TxK written by Jeff Minter, published by Atari, on cutting edge new hardware. Fancy that, something wonderful and new with the Atari name on it, something that lived up to the name, something that wasn't related to gambling, exploiting niche markets, shredding fond memories and lawyers, lawyers and more lawyers.

Edited March 19, 2015 by sh3-rg

[AtariORdead]

 

 

The poor public judgement is a slap to all our faces.

 

This started way back with the KC Munchkin case and you saw all these pacman type games in the arcades all over of eating things around a maze.

 

This "phenomenon" is overflowing on the appstores. There are Lode Runner clones, Breakout and Tempest clones you name it.

 

If I was Jeff and had the cash I definitely would not back down to these people.

 

"Entitled to protect your IP" is thrown around like the first amendment. Literally.

Are they advertising it as a direct sequel, its not a case of him backing down, he literally has no choice.

[Keatah]

I've had the Ace scans put up, but earlier we saw (on paper at least) how the Bitmap Bros would of done a modern version of Tempest 2000 on hardware then avaiable (PC/ST/Amiga, maybe arcade?)...basically it's kinda the soul or character of Minter given form in Tempest 2000, rather than just another coding job to do, well that's how i see it.

 

Minter signed over his soul, then, when he accepted the coding job for Tempest 2000.

 

 

I think people are letting the fact that its Minter vs Atari and are naturally backing the little guy without being objective.

 

Atari own the IP. Whatever you think of them it belongs to them. Minter has a strong link to the brand but it entitles him to nothing.

 

He was even advertising it as a sequel and even named it TxK for christs sake.

 

That's exactly what's happening. Along with some religious greatness being tossed in for good measure. In any case, the corporate paperwork sets the rules, not the wishes and desires of Minter's fans. It is what it is.

 

This isn't the first time an artist (of any kind) has made something great under contract, then years later tried to go indie and expand upon that work. They conveniently forget they signed away rights.

 

Copyright and IP law seriously need revising. For you can't reasonably and ethically expect to control someone's thinking (the small guy Minter) forever. You're basically trying to stop growth and evolution. There needs to be a time limit for how long a company can exercise control.

 

 

My primary problem is with the poor public "argument" (Facebook posting) from Atari, quoting game reviews as "evidence" that TxK has a direct connection to Tempest series games. It's not only tone deaf, but also shows a surprising lack of professionalism.

 

Professional discussion on Facebook? That's a joke.

[Tickled_Pink]

Just look at the half-arsed 12-page document issued to Llamasoft last June. Littered with inaccuracy, threatening, negative.

 

Good stuff ... but then you had to destroy all your good work with this ...

 

they could have picked up a phone or taken a trip to sunny Wales

What were you saying about inaccuracies? Besides, they don't have phones up in the mountains. They still use carrier pigeons - or in Jeff's case, Intergalactic Llamas,

 

 

Anyway ...

 

Reading between the lines it does look to me that Jeff was targeted because of his high profile. He had been giving interviews telling everyone what TxK was, how closely related it was to Tempest 2000 and so forth. Due to his high profile there may well have been a slight risk that he could have been seen by some less knowledgeable gamers (i.e. anyone under the age of 30) to be operating with Atari's permission.

 

Keatah's again right, BTW. IP law needs overhauling, particularly when it comes to video games. There are only so many ideas to go around. Imagine if book authors went around suing each other every time one of their ideas or plotlines were copied by another author.

 

If TxK was a book there wouldn't be quite the same issue. The story might be essentially the same, the layout similar but the arrangement of the words completely different. The problem with games is that everything carries its own copyright. The graphics, audio, gameplay and codebase.

 

Copied a bit of code? Sue.

 

Same type of game? Sue.

 

Audio use the same bleeps? Sue.

 

Games aren't seen legally as a whole package and that is where things are falling over. It's the whole package that's important. If that was the way things stood then in the case of TxK, Atari wouldn't stand a chance as the source code is completely different to Tempest 2000. It is pretty much the way of things in both music and literature. Even movies that have so many similarities as to be effectively retellings of the same story are generally taken as a whole. I can't even think of a single instance where the makers of a movie have been sued for copyright infringement.

 

Think of it another way, it's a bit like Ford suing BMW because their M3 has four wheels like a Mustang, even though they are both mechanically different under the hood.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Tickled_Pink

[+CyranoJ]

I can't even think of a single instance where the makers of a movie have been sued for copyright infringement.

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/hobbit-movie-producers-sue-age-387585

[Keatah]

Too bad not enough people of the general public are aware of this Mintergate issue. It seems only Tempest and Jag fans are.

 

The corpse of the original Atari will continue on making money hand over fist. OTH if we all banded together and started boycotting the Corpse of Atari they might change their minds. But this is unlikely.

 

I'll do my part by not promoting or buying anything "Corpse of Atari" related. Any "atari" apps the kids have will be removed and they'll be forbidden to buy future ones.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

(Get my flame retardant, unpopular opinion suit ready here)

 

Imagine if James Cameron decided that because people liked his take on the Aliens universe, that he spent the next 20 years doing nothing but doing that movie over and over again. He then decides on his own that one day he'll create "Xenomorphs", which features the exact same dialogue, sets and actors as his 1986 Alien sequel, but he changed the name, added a few special effects and commissioned a new soundtrack for it. You think that Fox might have a little problem with that?

 

Sure Atari is no Fox but since YaK and Atari didn't come to an agreement, why didn't YaK make some more significant changes to TxK? Since he stated that he tried to reach out to Atari at some point, he *knew* that there was a potential problem there. Curt Vendel has the Atari contract showing that YaK was hired to do Tempest 2000, not given the rights to rehash the IP in perpetuity. He didn't have to use the Claw, the same power-up names, level and enemy designs or promote that it was pretty much Tempest 2000 for the Vita. But he did all that, which from a legal standpoint, puts him in the wrong.

 

Just for the record, I think the best solution should have been Atari using TxK as a way to bring the Tempest franchise back into the modern realm. They should have recognized that it was going to be the best effort for resurrecting one of their franchises that they could possibly hope for. That sorry excuse for Tempest they did for XBLA certainly didn't cut it. I also agree that Atari should be going after everyone else that makes Tempest clones to remain consistent, although perhaps this is a tactic to dissuade others from doing so.

 

This is more super-minority opinion here but to me the silver lining that can come out of this, if they don't suddenly come to an agreement, is that Minter might actually have to make something that isn't a Tempest-clone for a change. I liked Defender 2000 and I would have liked to have seen his take on Major Havoc. Or heaven forbid that he takes all of that coding wizardry and creates something completely different. The horror!

Edited March 20, 2015 by Shaggy the Atarian

[Clint Thompson]

I also agree that Atari should be going after everyone else that makes Tempest clones to remain consistent, although perhaps this is a tactic to dissuade others from doing so.

 

It's a little late, isn't it?

 

Clones date back as far as the late 90's starting with Arashi and then N2O, Typhoon 2001, Tsunami 2010, Cyclone 2000, Vector Blaster, etc. - The fact that they have completely failed to protect their IP by allowing these (whatever you want to call them) "clones", "imitations", "ripoffs", etc. continue to be made without conseqeunce for the past decade seriously negates their sudden (or as of a year ago) interest in singling out any one person for copyright infringement. As the holder of copyrighted/trademarked works, you have to actively protect your work for it to hold up and the fact that Atari has dropped the ball entirely, even so much as letting trademarks lapse with incorrect information, seems ridiculous, regardless of how right or wrong it may be and shows how little they've truly cared or tried to protect their IP.

 

Furthermore, you can not only download multile different Jaguar emulators at ease but find a ROM of T2K on countless sites just about anywhere online, so they've definitely not made any push to have those pulled from the internet, otherwise their argument in how serious they are in protecting their IP would be seen as completely valid. I would find it hard to believe that with the presented facts regarding Atari's lack of sincere care or so-called sudden "Surprise and Dismay" seems slightly delusional if you look at the list above of clones that they've continued to allow go on for so long. What's surprising is why it took this long for Atari to even bother to notice clones existed in the first place. Oh right, they didn't. If anything, it just confirms how wrecked Atari really is and will continue to be. This could have been a 1UP for them, but no. Why? Because in the end, money is all that matters.

 

Gives a whole new meaning to Business is War.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Clint Thompson

[Shaggy the Atarian]

That is true that clones are prominent and it is a little late but I think that the reason why Atari has paid little to no attention to the Tempest clones are:

 

Many like Typhoon are completely free

Most are on platforms like the PC where it is very easy to get lost due to the sheer quantity of games available for it. (Yes I know, Vita is a terrible seller but not a single Tempest-clone out there got 1/5th of the PR that TxK received)

Along that same line, none of them was made with the reputation of Jeff Minter behind them

Many I've played don't use a yellow claw, Particle Laser and AI Droid powerups and bonus levels that work exactly the same as T2k.

 

As to the IP protection, while they might have dropped the ball on Tempest 2000, they did not drop it on Tempest itself and that can still apply. Either way, YaK knew there might be a problem which is why he tried to contact Atari about it. Not getting anywhere with that contact is not a valid legal claim to go right ahead as far as I am aware.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Shaggy the Atarian

[Gregory DG]

I think the real point is - not that Jeff copied Tempest 2000 or that "Atari" owns the IP - but how wrong it is for "Atari" to be so heavy-handed about it. Seriously, was this the proper way to handle it? With a threatening and demanding 10 page C&D? How about working out a deal with Jeff instead of this? I mean, this is not even the real "Atari" anymore, just a bunch of greedy vultures picking over the remains.

 

Here's the C&D BTW:

 

http://minotaurproject.co.uk/YakImages/surprised_and_dismayed.pdf

[Shaggy the Atarian]

Agreed - the proper way should have been Atari working with YaK to take TxK and making it the new Tempest.

 

Could YaK have handled it better though? I think so. He could have made it more Space Giraffe or he could have tried more than one avenue to open some official dialogue with Atari. Why give up after one method didn't work?

 

It hasn't been the real Atari for almost 20 years unfortunately (funny to think that we would ever consider Tramiel Atari as the real Atari in comparison to what we have now, amirite?)

Edited March 20, 2015 by Shaggy the Atarian

[sh3-rg]

the silver lining that can come out of this, if they don't suddenly come to an agreement, is that Minter might actually have to make something that isn't a Tempest-clone for a change.

How many games has Minter released in the last 7 years, since Space Giraffe?

• 13

How many are tube shooters?

• 1

How ignorant is it to suggest Minter only does Tempest?

• Incredibly

YaK knew there might be a problem which is why he tried to contact Atari about it. Not getting anywhere with that contact is not a valid legal claim to go right ahead as far as I am aware.

 

Your awareness is lacking. Minter attempted to open a dialogue only after the legal threats began arriving, not before putting out TxK. They were not interested, they wanted money, not an employee or business arrangement.

Edited March 20, 2015 by sh3-rg

[galax]

Sad that in an industry where everyone is plagiarising everyone else they go after the one guy who does things in his own original style.

 

They've gone after him because he's small and poor enough to be unable to defend against their exaggerated claims (obviously it's a Tempest clone but secret documents shared with him when he created T2K? electronic sountracks? "collect powerups"?) but big enough to be seeming to make some small amount of money on the PSVita version.

 

Demanding he destroy all source code is excessive too, there must be tons of non-Tempest related routines in there.

 

Too bad not enough people of the general public are aware of this Mintergate issue. It seems only TIempest and Jag fans are.

 

It's getting some more mainstream coverage now: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/mar/19/atari-threatens-jeff-minter-copyright-claims-playstation-txk-tempest

Edited March 20, 2015 by galax

[roland p]

Atari never had so much (free) publicity.

[AtariORdead]

It's sad that in an industry where everyone is plagiarising everyone else they go after the one guy who does things in his own original style.

 

 

It's getting some more mainstream coverage now: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/mar/19/atari-threatens-jeff-minter-copyright-claims-playstation-txk-tempest

 

 

 

Sorry but as good as minter is, he has been making his living of retweaking existing games and updates for years now. he has not been original for a while now.

[Jess Ragan]

Well, Minter did try to make a tube shooter with his own ideas... but the end result was Space Giraffe. Yeech.

 

I'd like to see the guy collaborate with other developers on a game, but I get the feeling he's just not a team player.