8th lutz Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) There is something that no one mentioned about the Colecovision version of Thexder. Thexder is Colecovision game, but it only be played on the add-on for the Colecovision called Super Game module game. Pixelboy on his site mentioned Thexder is on the Super Game Module because it needed extra ram and more sound. That means Thexder being the Colecovision isn't as easy it a couple people made it sound due to the ram the Colecovision has without the Super Game Module.. Edited February 2, 2014 by 8th lutz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I didn't say it was easy. I think the difference is more like you're trying to make a salad. The Coleco kitchen has a bowl already there. The 7800 kitchen has flour, oil and salt so you can make dough, shape the dough and deep fry it to make a container for the salad.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Er, Thexder uses tiles to scroll. That's something easy for the Coleco or NES. Isn't the 7800 focused more on getting many sprites on screen and playing with display lists? I know this is human nature, but there are plenty of 7800 games that scroll fine. You can make Scrapyard Dog move at one hell of a clip. Have you seen Bentley Bear's parallax scrolling? Just because hardware has particular strengths in one area, doesn't mean it's completely incapable in another. I certainly don't remember anything in Thexder (had it on my CoCo 3) that would seem particularly problematic for the 7800 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynxpro Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Thexder was ported to the Coleco this last year. It was the same as MSX version http://www.teampixelboy.com/thexder.php There you go. Did it require that RAM expansion? Wait, I see it did. What about Metal Gear? Has that made it to the Colecovision yet? RAM for a 7800 Thexder wouldn't be a problem for the XM or the XBoard. And a 5200 version could use the AtariMax cart for RAM... Edited February 3, 2014 by Lynxpro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I don't know guys. From what I remember of Thexder, Super Mario Brothers 3 it is not in terms of complexity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I don't know guys. From what I remember of Thexder, Super Mario Brothers 3 it is not in terms of complexity. It's not necessarily the gameplay that's the complex part. Notice there are not many 7800 games that scroll in all four directions. The only example I can think of is Dark Chambers. I wish the source for that was around. I've only seen links to the VCS version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 It's not necessarily the gameplay that's the complex part. Notice there are not many 7800 games that scroll in all four directions. The only example I can think of is Dark Chambers. I wish the source for that was around. I've only seen links to the VCS version. To assist with the issue someone needs to port Bosconian or/and Time Pilot. Bosconian's screen layout is similar to [New] Rally-X. Rally-X car smoke is used in Pac'N Pal/Pac-Man & Chomp-Chomp. Pac'N Pal/Pac-Man & Chomp-Chomp is part of the Pac-man series of games running on Super Pac-Man hardware in the arcade. If only there was a developer who loved and programmed the Pac-Man series of games/Super Pac-Man. Super Pac-Man --> Pac-Man & Chomp Chomp --> [New] Rally-X --> Bosconian. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 To assist with the issue someone needs to port Bosconian or/and Time Pilot. See, those are games that CAN be "well done" on an Atari 7800. Time Pilot "scrolls" in four directions but not really - It just moves sprites around like it is. If any 7800 programmers are interested they should look up DanBoris's blog for clues: http://atariage.com/forums/blog/52/entry-5198-7800-fine-scrolling/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 See, those are games that CAN be "well done" on an Atari 7800. When looking just at the base hardware of a system, sure. But I believe many 'advance' games can be "well done" on the Atari 7800 if provided the same (or similar) help the NES had. These were the NES "well done" base hardware games: http://www.telebunny.net/toastywiki/index.php/Games/G5-BlackBoxGames The 'Black Box' NES titles are examples of what the NES could do with just 'base' hardware (AKA Mapper 0); games that are "well done" without additional/above standard on-cart hardware. Even for a relatively early game like "The Legend of Zelda", it needed 128K memory inside the cart and of course 'battery storage' for saving. Once the very talented 7800 devs are playing with 128K memory, I'm wondering what great things may be accomplished. Note too that not just 128K, but 256K is very common in many NES games (Punch-Out, Double Dragon (II), Final Fantasy, Gauntlet II, Castlevania II, Platoon, Battletoads, River City Ransom, Super Mario Bros. 2, Ultima (Series) - just a few examples), that can be seen as "well done". The 7800 needs that somewhat-level playfield and developers on-board to show how it too can perform and provide just as many "well done" games. The aforementioned Super Mario Bros. 3 had 384K memory (As does Castlevania 3). Mega Man 4-6 has 512K memory. Dragon Warrior IV has 1024K memory! A lot falls on the programmer/programing ability too. Commando for instance on the NES has 256K memory on cart, while the 7800 has approximately half that amount of memory, and is the superior port, IMHO. Then you look at Contra on the NES, and that was done with 128K memory inside the cart; pretty impressive (Super C, brings it back to 256K memory needed on-cart). Succinctly, the Atari 7800 could have a lot more complex/advance "well done" games, which previously may have been thought not so or even possible to try once the right hardware (I.E. CPUWIZ's Versaboard) is more learned/utilized and of course developers are onboard with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakasama Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I don't know guys. From what I remember of Thexder, Super Mario Brothers 3 it is not in terms of complexity. If I may step in, I think what theloon is trying to say is, that making a good scrolling game with tiles IS possible but the programmer is has to write the code to do the scrolling part of the game which just means more time and maybe few headaches. There is a way to avoid that, just have the 7800 access to the hardware to do that scrolling via XM or have that hardware built in a cart. I think Bob might rather have that rather than to code the scrolling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 If I may step in, I think what theloon is trying to say is, that making a good scrolling game with tiles IS possible but the programmer is has to write the code to do the scrolling part of the game Hmm ... I thought the 7800 did have hardware assisted scrolling as part of MARIA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakasama Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 From what I understand, the Maria is great with handling lots of sprites. Now if the Maria does hardware scrolling, it's not up to par to with the NES hardware. Like I said before, the 7800 would have to do more of the scrolling part of a game through software instead of hardware to get that kind of scrolling one would find on Super Mario Bros. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaynz Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Dammit, guys! Now I have to learn all THIS stuff for ASM too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 If I may step in, I think what theloon is trying to say is, that making a good scrolling game with tiles IS possible but the programmer is has to write the code to do the scrolling part of the game which just means more time and maybe few headaches. There is a way to avoid that, just have the 7800 access to the hardware to do that scrolling via XM or have that hardware built in a cart. I think Bob might rather have that rather than to code the scrolling.Valid points, and not disagreeing with theloon or your reiteration of the scrolling point. However, there are other factors which can determine whether/how a game is "well done" outside of what the graphics hardware handles more easily. The emphasis for me is not on what console handles hardware scrolling better; rather whether a game can be "well done" on the system. The amount of work includes not only what is easier to accomplish on the hardware level but also the amount of memory and the ability of the programmer. My examples with the NES highlight what Nintendo had in abundance - resources - including way more extra memory for their games, utilized in the majority of its library, and a huge pool of programmers (first and third party) towards games that were released in which the 7800 never had available to it. The impression it leaves regarding what can be "well done" on the NES or/and "well done" on the 7800 may be skewed as a result. Not denying the 'scrolling points' just the notion of deeming whether a game can be "well done" for the 7800. Additionally though, even when the extra resources are thrown towards a system (Like 256K for NES Commando) it doesn't mean necessarily though that it will do something better either (As the 7800, IMHO, accomplished a much better port with approximately half the amount of memory). Again a lot factors into whether a game can be or is "well done" for any system. Just to ensure the point of leaving the "scrolling via XM" is not misunderstood by some the XM does not enhance or change the Maria/7800 graphics capabilities. If "scrolling via XM" was performed it would simply be to utilize the extra available (128K) memory, which again the NES had that and much more inside many of its cartridges. As Bakasama also mentioned, that 'hardware scrolling' (or extra memory for the scrolling) can be "built in a cart", as that amount of memory (128K) and more is indeed a reality now thanks to the genius that is CPUWIZ and his Versaboard. Regarding Thexder on the NES/Famicom... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2J1Lp7usfQ BTW, I'm not seeing an abundance of color there...Wondering how sweet Thexder would look under the 320 Mode of the 7800. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Runner 87 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Golly gee wiz.... Since this is a request thread, id like to request one too. I REQUEST THE 1981 ARCADE GAME TITLED "SOLAR FOX" https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=JgTxUrjYJcmH0AXh24DADw&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D7tOji4eR8MY&cd=1&ved=0CCcQtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNHbECGgy5J6MYsoiwJR8AeWZYgnWg&sig2=iZed-avrKeF1aWC5ozfZGg This game seems like the 7800 could handle it as i believe its an ideal game. GET IT DONE PMP... Edited February 4, 2014 by Stun Runner 87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Runner 87 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Yes? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_livSkfWy0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DH_livSkfWy0# Please and thank you Edited February 4, 2014 by Stun Runner 87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Dammit, guys! Now I have to learn all THIS stuff for ASM too! Not necessarily: http://rfk7800.sourceforge.net/ The above link has a port of Robot Finds Kitten for the 7800. It was made in C. I think GroovyBee was working on some nifty C libraries too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devas Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I think it's a cool idea, I love Thexder. I've never played Solar Fox, but it looks awesome. But I might prefer a port of Shinobi (even if it is a SEGA arcade game) on the 7800. I think it could beat the ST version... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I think it's a cool idea, I love Thexder. I've never played Solar Fox, but it looks awesome. But I might prefer a port of Shinobi (even if it is a SEGA arcade game) on the 7800. I think it could beat the ST version... The Atari 7800 could possibly give a fair shot to Shinobi - similar to the NES, but would at best place a far second to the Sega Master System regarding same generation consoles. Respecting that, if factoring the TurboGrafx-16 as well, bump that goal to at best a far third. The ST is more in line with a Sega Genesis; out of league for the Atari 7800. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devas Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) The Atari 7800 could possibly give a fair shot to Shinobi - similar to the NES, but would at best place a far second to the Sega Master System regarding same generation consoles. Respecting that, if factoring the TurboGrafx-16 as well, bump that goal to at best a far third. The ST is more in line with a Sega Genesis; out of league for the Atari 7800. I know the Atari ST is a 16-bit computer, but many arcade ports weren't on par with what the system could do(Double Dragon and Outrun are terrible on the ST). Shinobi on the ST is pretty decent, but I think the SMS port has much better gameplay. What I was saying is that a better port of the game could be made on the 7800 gameplay-wise. I don't know how much memory it would need, but I think it could include all the levels. Edited February 4, 2014 by Devas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaynz Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 The above link has a port of Robot Finds Kitten for the 7800. It was made in C. I think GroovyBee was working on some nifty C libraries too. Bee's kinda left the community, apparently, and hasn't released his C libraries. Honestly, I would love to use them, as C is where I did the bulk of my professional game programming... but it really doesn't look like it's going to happen. So to get any juice out of the 7800, it's still pretty much just ASM at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Bee's kinda left the community, apparently, and hasn't released his C libraries. Honestly, I would love to use them, as C is where I did the bulk of my professional game programming... but it really doesn't look like it's going to happen. So to get any juice out of the 7800, it's still pretty much just ASM at the moment. I thought GroovyBee was on the verge of releasing his 7800 C library pending a little documentation creation. Even if new developments on his side have stalled maybe a little documentation for library access trade could happen. Also, the robot finds kitten source seems to have code in it that could be used on its own. I could see changing the font file in the source to Thexder tiles. Basically, what's already there in the source could give you authentic Thexder scrolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Also, the robot finds kitten source seems to have code in it that could be used on its own. I could see changing the font file in the source to Thexder tiles. Basically, what's already there in the source could give you authentic Thexder scrolling. Looking at the game, all you experience is a pound sign which when touching other characters on the screen tells you what those characters on screen represent. Once you touch a symbol which is the kitten, you 'found the kitten' and the screen just changes to the two characters coming together on a single screen. There's only two screens in the game (besides the title screen). If you try this under ProSystem, it does not work properly and always the kitten is the ampersand [&]. MESS emulates it properly with the kitten changing what character it represents with each new game played. I don't see any scrolling. Am I missing something? Robot Finds Kitten 7800 (2004) (PD).zip Anyhow, back to a 320 Mode Thexder - PC CGA mode doesn't look too shabby. True, Tandy 16-color & MCGA look better, but the 4 colors only is no sloutch: A different four colors could be chosen, but you get the idea 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Looking at the game, all you experience is a pound sign which when touching other characters on the screen tells you what those characters on screen represent. Once you touch the ampersand (&) you 'found the kitten' and the screen just changes to the two characters coming together on a single screen. There's only two screens in the game (besides the title screen). I don't see any scrolling. Am I missing something? Thexder uses tile based movement. Basically, it's like shifting text around one character at a time to simulate scrolling. Those numbers and letters in robot finds kitten can be replaced with the building blocks of levels in Thexder. It's painfully obvious in games like Wonderboy for the Sega SG-1000 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Thank you for the explanation...Very cool 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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