Paprika Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Hi everyone! First I have to say, I'm new in the forum but have been visiting this site for quite a long time! I live in Spain and proudly own a beautiful Atari 2600 and LOVE it. The problem is, games here are not easy to come by and they're overpriced or are in a relly bad shape. I knew that sooner or later I'd start buying games from the internet, but the NTSC vs PAL problem strikes again. I know you can play NTSC games in a PAL Atari 2600 without much trouble, but the palette changes. Is that a big issue? I mean, does it really make a big difference? I was going to get Donkey Kong, Vanguard and a couple of games more from ebay, but they're NTSC and I'm no longer sure if I want to spend my money on them and then get disappointed when Donkey Kong appears in blue on the screen... Anyway, thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Depends on the TV and can depend on the individual game also. If your TV can handle an NTSC signal then it's probably worthwhile just getting an NTSC 2600 as well. Only need the console, no point getting the PS if it's an overseas purchase. By default, PAL 2600 will have less available colours - some are just repeated, more a shortcoming of the PAL TIA than anything else. So, some colours will be different anyway. In some cases they took the differences into consideration and adjusted the game colours in the PAL version of the game. Edited February 3, 2014 by Rybags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karokoenig Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 You can always go to German or British ebay for games. The huge majority (>95 %) of carts sold there are PAL. Shipping costs within the EU aren't that extreme, especially if you go for bigger lots. Just make sure the seller ships to Spain. The prices for common carts are quite low in Germany and the UK as well, if you stay a little patient and don't hit on the first one you come across. Actually... isn't Spain PAL land as well? Is there no Spanish ebay? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
English Invader Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I play some NTSC games on a PAL console and I can live with the odd colours as long as they don't affect the gameplay. Tapper is a great port of the arcade game and it's a tragedy that it was never released in Europe. My only concern is whether playing NTSC games on PAL can cause any long-term damage to either the console or the TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nognir Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 No. why should it damage anything? The console only handles the colors in the program code differently, because the color adresses are differently in PAL and NTSC consoles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paprika Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 You can always go to German or British ebay for games. The huge majority (>95 %) of carts sold there are PAL. Shipping costs within the EU aren't that extreme, especially if you go for bigger lots. Just make sure the seller ships to Spain. The prices for common carts are quite low in Germany and the UK as well, if you stay a little patient and don't hit on the first one you come across. Actually... isn't Spain PAL land as well? Is there no Spanish ebay? Just curious. I should go check if my TV does accept NTSC signal asap! Funny thing is, it's a Sony Bravia (before the 1080p ones) and at first I didn't think I would be able to play with the Atari on it at all. You can always go to German or British ebay for games. The huge majority (>95 %) of carts sold there are PAL. Shipping costs within the EU aren't that extreme, especially if you go for bigger lots. Just make sure the seller ships to Spain. The prices for common carts are quite low in Germany and the UK as well, if you stay a little patient and don't hit on the first one you come across. Actually... isn't Spain PAL land as well? Is there no Spanish ebay? Just curious. Yes, we do have PAL here. Shipping costs from the States can be really high, but I've been looking for the sellers with lower shipping costs and offer combined shipping. People here in Spain (phisical stores, flea markets and ebay) are completely nuts when pricing "vintage" games. Some who was selling a lot of old games wanted me to pay more than 15 euros for a Dodge 'Em cart (no box or anything!). I've been also looking for games in Ebay UK and actually found a copy of Donkey Kong for less than 10 euros (and that's cheap for the prices you can find here in Spain), but it was the odd looking cart with the B&W sticker and I didn't quite like it. But you know, the real fun is waiting for the bargains to pop up and catch them! Btw, thanks to everyone for answering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karokoenig Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Check german ebay then. Common Atari 2600 carts go for 2 or 2,50 Euro a piece if you're a little patient. There are many lots of 5-20 games at once. Many of those lots contain Donkey Kong. I do have doubles in my collection I would send to you for cheap plus shipping. Donkey Kong, Defender, Decathlon, Pac Man (of course), Dodge 'em, Indy 500... Would save me the hassle of putting them up on ebay, but it may take a while till I have time to rummage through my collection and pick them out. I'll get back to you if you're interested. 15 Euro for a Dodge 'em is ridiculous. They are common as dirt. You sure you checked the auctions and not the (always insane) buy-it-now offers? Edited February 3, 2014 by karokoenig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nognir Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I also wanted to ask if you have some special games if you are searching for. I also have some doubles which I can surely spare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maiki Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 If you want to play NTSC games on the real console, the easest would probably be to get a modified NTSC 2600 with composite or component video output. I think the NTSC-antenna compatible TVs are quite rare in Europe. What I personally do I run NTSC to PAL-60 color converted games from the Harmony C on the real PAL 2600. I even modified a few of them myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paprika Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 Check german ebay then. Common Atari 2600 carts go for 2 or 2,50 Euro a piece if you're a little patient. There are many lots of 5-20 games at once. Many of those lots contain Donkey Kong. I do have doubles in my collection I would send to you for cheap plus shipping. Donkey Kong, Defender, Decathlon, Pac Man (of course), Dodge 'em, Indy 500... Would save me the hassle of putting them up on ebay, but it may take a while till I have time to rummage through my collection and pick them out. I'll get back to you if you're interested. 15 Euro for a Dodge 'em is ridiculous. They are common as dirt. You sure you checked the auctions and not the (always insane) buy-it-now offers? I also wanted to ask if you have some special games if you are searching for. I also have some doubles which I can surely spare Thank you very much guys! If you don't mind I'll wait a little bit and see what I can find on ebay, but I'll have in mind your offers! At the time I have the 32 in 1 (great game, a must-have in my opinion), Golf, Phoenix, Mouse Trap, Frostbite, Dodge 'Em, Super Breakout, Berzerk, Pac-man, Asteroids, Combat and Defender. Some of them are crappy and others don´t have stickers or are mising the end label. The ones I am proud of are the latest 4, as they are in their original boxes with manuals and all (I managed to get them along with the 2600 and its box, plus two joysticks, paddle controlers and AC adapter, all for 50 euros). However, I'd like to get the "classics". Games such as Pitfall, Vanguard, Donkey Kong, Centipede, ET (yeah, I know... ) and similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paprika Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 If you want to play NTSC games on the real console, the easest would probably be to get a modified NTSC 2600 with composite or component video output. I think the NTSC-antenna compatible TVs are quite rare in Europe. What I personally do I run NTSC to PAL-60 color converted games from the Harmony C on the real PAL 2600. I even modified a few of them myself. That sounds really interesting! So, if I understood correctly, modifying a PAL Atari 2600 to get composite output would reduce the problems with NTSC games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
English Invader Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Thank you very much guys! If you don't mind I'll wait a little bit and see what I can find on ebay, but I'll have in mind your offers! At the time I have the 32 in 1 (great game, a must-have in my opinion), Golf, Phoenix, Mouse Trap, Frostbite, Dodge 'Em, Super Breakout, Berzerk, Pac-man, Asteroids, Combat and Defender. Some of them are crappy and others don´t have stickers or are mising the end label. The ones I am proud of are the latest 4, as they are in their original boxes with manuals and all (I managed to get them along with the 2600 and its box, plus two joysticks, paddle controlers and AC adapter, all for 50 euros). However, I'd like to get the "classics". Games such as Pitfall, Vanguard, Donkey Kong, Centipede, ET (yeah, I know... ) and similar. A Harmony cartridge would make a lot of sense if you're having trouble getting hold of games. 100% compatible and very easy to use. The software available here is NTSC, but there are plenty of other sites where you can get PAL games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maiki Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 modifying a PAL Atari 2600 to get composite output would reduce the problems with NTSC games? I don't think so. You need to modify NTSC TIA (Atari 2600) to output composite so that you can connect it to european TV. Or use PAL system but modify the games (meaning no original cartridges but rather Harmony C.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Hi, as mentioned before German ebay is cheap ressource for PAL games. I got a few NTSC (only) games as well and most of them seem to work on 2600 Junior PAL but with wrong colors. Are the wrong colors annoying? Well it really depends on the type of game... Asteroids doesn't matter at all but if you fight in Front Line between blue trees or fly in Time Pilot through the green sky it looks like you are on drugs I recently got a cheap 2600 Junior NTSC without any cables from Ebay US. You won't need the cables or the Power Supply from the US anyway as they won't work in Germany (and Spain), you need a 2600 Power supply for your own country. Well, I plugged it all in, my European Phillips LED TV detected the the channel, I got a picture (bad quality) and no sound. So I would guess the TV has got problems with an NTSC antenna signal to retrieve the sound. So I moded it to get an FBAS (Cinch) signal and that works fine I used a very simple mod: http://circuit-board.de/forum/index.php/Thread/52 All the text on this page is German but the pictures describe it very well I build this 6 years ago but didn't like that the colors are not 100% correct on a PAL console (red is rather brown) and removed it. Now I used it again for a quick mod of the NTSC console and there the colors are also not 100% accurate but 100% better than playing an NTSC game on a PAL console. The trees in Front Line are light green instead of dark green but they are not blue! You'll find many better mods on the web but basically it prooves, yes you have trouble with the antenna signal of an NTSC console on an European TV, but if you mod the console , the Cinch or Scart input of any European TV build in the 90s or later will work fine. Back to the topic NTSC games on PAL console: Now I will have a look for good NTSC only games... Tapper is a good idea! Any more? Did anybody try Berzerk voice enhanced on a PAL console? It does not play the speech either on PAL console or my modded NTSC console. Did I get a faulty cart, or does the game uses a glitch which fails if the NTSC console runs on 50Hz and not 60Hz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antiriad Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) Did anybody try Berzerk voice enhanced on a PAL console? It does not play the speech either on PAL console or my modded NTSC console. Did I get a faulty cart, or does the game uses a glitch which fails if the NTSC console runs on 50Hz and not 60Hz? Hi, I've ordered a Berzerk VE and I have a PAL 2600 Jr. When I'll receive the package, I'll check. But it is possible to use a NTSC VCS with a PAL power supply? Edited September 4, 2014 by Antiriad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Yes, I use a PAL power supply on an NTSC 2600 Jr. I did not get any sound over the antenna cable, so I modded it (not sure if this was a problem in general or specific to my unit). Please let me know if you hear the speech! I get same results on my PAL an NTSC Jr: When you start a new game, you hear "intr...." silence (should be "intruder alert" I guess). Maybe my cartridge ist broken, as it fails on both consoles PAL and NTSC. I thought about this beeing a 50/60Hz Problem but even the power supply gets 220V 50Hz in (instead 110V and 60Hz in the US) the outgoing direct current is the same, so this does not make any sense then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_Atari Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 What are the main components that are different on a NTSC to a PAL system? TIA, RF unit, anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nognir Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I think it hast to be the TIA, because the Memory addresses differ from PAL and NTSC and they are produced by the TIA on the TV Screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 TIA is different - the memory addresses are the same otherwise games wouldn't work at all. Base clock frequencies of both systems are slightly different, NTSC is based on the 3.59 MHz colour clocking of NTSC analog TV. Pal base clock is based on a slightly lower value that equates to 4/5ths of a colour clock and allows generation of 312 scanline frames which keep at roughly 50 Hz and the same cycles per scanline as NTSC. Pal machines use a seperate crystal for colour generation, which is one difference in PAL TIA - the two TIAs are sufficiently different that they can't easily be used in place of the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antiriad Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Yes, I use a PAL power supply on an NTSC 2600 Jr. I did not get any sound over the antenna cable, so I modded it (not sure if this was a problem in general or specific to my unit). Please let me know if you hear the speech! I get same results on my PAL an NTSC Jr: When you start a new game, you hear "intr...." silence (should be "intruder alert" I guess). Maybe my cartridge ist broken, as it fails on both consoles PAL and NTSC. I thought about this beeing a 50/60Hz Problem but even the power supply gets 220V 50Hz in (instead 110V and 60Hz in the US) the outgoing direct current is the same, so this does not make any sense then. Hi, received yesterday Berzerk VE from the store. It works on my Atari 2600 Jr. PAL console, I hear the voices. Only colors are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Ok, if you hear the complete speech, I probably order a second one, as my cartridge only Plays "int" The "ruder alert" is missing Strange, never had a game that partly works, either they fail or run. Many thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I tested a new copy of Berkzerk VE on PAL and NTSC 2600 Jr. but the speech stops always after one second. I hear "Intr" instead of "Intruder Alert", so it is not related to the cart Not sure if this is related to the fact that I have to use 220V 50Hz Power Supply in Germany. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Completely unrelated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr SQL Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 It's probably the display; a "feature" has been added that was not present in classic CRT's. Try Video Chess, if the screen blanks after you move instead of cycling your display has this feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Got back to this one year later... well during speech the screen blanks... video signal is completey turned off which causes the tv to mute audio as video signal got lost With a mod you can connect the audio cinch to a sound system and speech plays fine... will put one of my two carts on ebay as both are fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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