Flappo Bird

[Byte Knight]

I just played a few rounds and my best score is 2.

 

I totally agree. Anyone who knows a little bit of bB programming could make a much better version.

 

You mean like this one?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I just had a look at a Youtube video of this hyped app. OK, the graphics are somewhat cute, but everything else is pretty much substandard. The original helicopter game (which have copied in Cave 1K) plays way better with much better physics.

 

So can someone who fell in love for this game please enlighten me?

[bomberpunk]

it was coded in a way that it is frustratingly hard. wonky collision detection. higher gravity pull. people who claim to love this game are lunatics. you have to place the little bastard perfectly to go through a set of pipes.

 

my highest score is a pathetic 24.

 

that's why i love it.

[eshu]

Ian Bogost wrote a nice article about it: http://www.bogost.com/writing/the_squalid_grace_of_flappy_bi.shtml

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Maybe I should starting developing crap games to mobiles too. Sounds terribly easy and profitable.

[enthusi]

Yeah, maybe you should.

I couldnt agree more about your cave 1k game which is really great and actually make sense

Anyway, is for example 'jammed' a port or your original idea?

THAT would make a nice smartphone game I guess (I dont even own one).

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Jammed is not an original idea from me. And are multiple such games e.g. for Android. Even one with the same(!) name exists.

[Mr SQL]

Maybe I should starting developing crap games to mobiles too. Sounds terribly easy and profitable.

lol! My favourite of this genre is the lighter app game. I like the utility version of this game, cigarette lighter, that used to come built into cars - it used dedicated hardware that could charge in seconds with no boot time

[Thomas Jentzsch]

The mobile app scene is pretty commercial. It is today's big business. Nothing wrong with that. And if I would be into making money with little investment I would try it there.

 

The situation for the 2600 is pretty different. We are just a very small group of people. My main concern is that more and more games are sold by the package before the game. Quite frequently the package seems to be there even before the game. We are getting closer to eventually selling "sealed bricks". As a devoted developer, I obviously do not like this situation.

 

But who is to blame?

 

It is not Batari Basic, because some people have proven, that you can do very good games with it too. It is also not the programmers who can't do any better but still are able to sell their rather bad games. Nobody is forced to buy those.

 

Then, are those to blame who buy such games? Many of them don't even play the games (at least not frequently). But they obviously love the increased quality of labels, manual, boxes etc. They sure have different priorities than I have. And it can be pretty discouraging for a developer if his part is getting lower attention. But even I love the creations of our most talented artists. They are an as important part of our hobby as anyone else. A great game should always get an adequate great packaging.

 

So, what's left? Artificial rarity! By doing that, you are able to sell substandard games in substandard packaging for hefty money just because of the rarity you created. This is something I really dislike. Here I really blame those who produce such games and those who buy them. Mainly because both are attracting people who do no good for our hobby. Yes, I know you cannot get rich from our hobby. But nevertheless greed is everywhere, even here. We had some examples in the last years. And money and greed can ruin everything.

 

But I am getting off-topic...

 

Summary: Nothing wrong with Flappo Bird.

 

[Mr SQL]

The mobile app scene is pretty commercial. It is today's big business. Nothing wrong with that. And if I would be into making money with little investment I would try it there.

 

The situation for the 2600 is pretty different. We are just a very small group of people. My main concern is that more and more games are sold by the package before the game. Quite frequently the package seems to be there even before the game. We are getting closer to eventually selling "sealed bricks". As a devoted developer, I obviously do not like this situation.

 

But who is to blame?

 

It is not Batari Basic, because some people have proven, that you can do very good games with it too. It is also not the programmers who can't do any better but still are able to sell their rather bad games. Nobody is forced to buy those.

 

Then, are those to blame who buy such games? Many of them don't even play the games (at least not frequently). But they obviously love the increased quality of labels, manual, boxes etc. They sure have different priorities than I have. And it can be pretty discouraging for a developer if his part is getting lower attention. But even I love the creations of our most talented artists. They are an as important part of our hobby as anyone else. A great game should always get an adequate great packaging.

 

So, what's left? Artificial rarity! By doing that, you are able to sell substandard games in substandard packaging for hefty money just because of the rarity you created. This is something I really dislike. Here I really blame those who produce such games and those who buy them. Mainly because both are attracting people who do no good for our hobby. Yes, I know you cannot get rich from our hobby. But nevertheless greed is everywhere, even here. We had some examples in the last years. And money and greed can ruin everything.

 

But I am getting off-topic...

 

Summary: Nothing wrong with Flappo Bird.

 

Tom,

awesome post! IMO you are not getting off topic at all.

 

Indeed, great games can be written in bAtari Basic or Assembly and a developer can slap bloop the dot together and pass it off as something and maybe just put nice packaging on it to sell it, but well it's still bloop in a nice package from your perspective and mine but maybe not from someone who never wants to even play the game (another great point).

 

The developer of Flapo Bird has presented an interesting alternative perspective on the value of putting thousands of hours into the development and testing of a game with his his recent critique of KC Monster Maze:

 

" really wanted to like this, but unfortunately I don't.

You've twice now appeared with a finished game that nobody can tryout before buying.

I thought I'd take a chance on this since I love my Supercharger.

The cassette label is upside down. The spine is the right way, but the picture is not like other Starpath tapes.

The picture is at a terribly low resolution with nearly unreadable small print. How this was made the size of a box, but couldn't be printed nice on a 3x2 cassette insert I have no idea.

The game audio seems to be recorded three times. First slow, second fast, third slow again, then fast but chopped off as it begins.

I started by playing it into my computer.

There is quite a lot of noise for something that has to be clearly played into a Supercharger.

The first "game audio" fails at three blue bars, no matter what the volume.

The second fast one doesn't even register with the Supercharger.

The third sound file one finally loaded 100%. This was after over an hour of failure trying to play it directly from a new cassette player and recording it to my computer, with success playing it from my phone as an AIFF uncompressed sound file.

The game plays much worse than the video shows with monsters flickering all over the place, and your character going off screen and disappearing a lot without scrolling to wherever you go, and an overall very, very jittery bouncy maze. I'm talking up and down bounce jitter.

Also there always seems to be dots at the bottom, but you can't get them even when you get down there, only when the dots are running near the center.

So starting off I have to go left and disappear off the right side of the screen, invisibly go up and along the top, then right to a dead end that somehow you go down and to the left.

So I guess I am upset about gameplay that should have bug reported and fixed before release, along with considering gameplay suggestions and movement from players.

I feel ripped off at this point. Overpriced, bad insert, bad sound recording, buggy gameplay.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Fortunately the next day the game played just like the video instead of playing much worse and the label matched what was shown and the extra items weren't actually recieved but the missing items had been.

 

The BoulderDash development team inspired me to put thousands of hours of Assembly coding into the design, implementation and testing of the Munchkin game but I'm open to the idea there are far better development models. What do you think of the Flappo Bird critique?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

What do you think of the Flappo Bird critique?

To be honest, it is a pretty long read and not always easy to follow for a non-native speaker. But I think his thoughts are valid. Even though I may not agree an all points.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Fortunately the next day the game played just like the video instead of playing much worse and the label matched what was shown and the extra items weren't actually recieved but the missing items had been.

The next day? How did that miracle happen?

 

The BoulderDash development team inspired me to put thousands of hours of Assembly coding into the design, implementation and testing of the Munchkin game but I'm open to the idea there are far better development models.

Not for me. Mainly because I am selfish at first. So the games I develop have to please me first. I know I could get away with much less effort, the game would still sell very well and I still would get a lot of praise from people who do not (cannot) know better.

 

But I would always know that they are wrong. I would know about the flaws, where I compromised too easily, where I didn't try hard enough. And I would feel bad. And the sales and praise would mean nothing to me. And even worse, after being about 15 years into this hobby, I know the names of people who in the past have gone overly enthusiastic over games which I personally considered substandard. So, when I finish one of my games, their feedback means much less to me, than the feedback of the (very few) people, who I have learned (more or less) do follow my standards.

 

So I can't do any different. And, which is a problem, I cannot look at other people's games differently. Which means, I am always very delighted and supportive when someone really does (or at least really tries) to do it the "right" (my!) way. On the other side, I try to silence and censor myself when it comes to the other group of developers and games. I have learned from my past mistakes here.

 

All this may sound elitish, snobbish and arrogant. It probably is. And I have been accused all of that. Which was (of course! ) plain wrong from my rather special perspective and most likely plain right from a lot of other people's perspective.

[iesposta]

I created Flappy, not Flappo Bird.

 

KC Monster Maze worked the next day because I tried it on a stock Heavy Sixer on a CRT. (It still doesn't play correctly on two AV modded systems on an LCD TV (4 Switch, & Light Sixer).)

 

P.S. I have edited that original KC review -- if you go back to the KC thread you can read the changes. Also I really like Barnstorming, so I made my Flappy like Barnstorming. People that hate Barnstorming may not like Flappy for similar reasons.

[+Random Terrain]

Also I really like Barnstorming, so I made my Flappy like Barnstorming. People that hate Barnstorming may not like Flappy for similar reasons.

 

In Barnstorming, the player doesn't have to repeatedly press the fire button. The fire button can be held down to fly faster or released to fly slower and the joystick is used to move up and down. I don't like Barnstorming, but at least there's more to it than just pressing the fire button over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over . . .

 

I also hate joystick jerker games for a similar reason. Software that makes you jerk the joystick back and forth as fast as you can is not a game, it's a repetitive stress injury device disguised as a game.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Some people love games like Joust. Some people love games like Decathlon. Some people love games like Thrust. And some people hate all of them.

 

There is no objective definition of what is a game and what not. Just personal, completely subjective opinions.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Thomas Jentzsch

[+Random Terrain]

Some people love games like Joust. Some people love games like Decathlon. Some people love games like Thrust. And some people hate all of them.

 

There is no objective definition of what is a game and what not. Just personal, completely subjective opinions.

 

And some people like to eat their own poo and cut themselves. The first time I saw Decathlon back in the 1980s, I knew it was a bad idea. Jerking the joystick back and forth is not 'playing' and it's begging for a repetitive stress injury. No matter what type of game it is, at least these days homebrewers can add a pause feature to give players a break.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Correction: "The first time I saw Decathlon back in the 1980s, I knew I would not like it."

 

The world doesn't revolve around anyone of us.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Thomas Jentzsch

[The Usotsuki]

inb4 that walking game in Strongbad.

[+Random Terrain]

Correction: "The first time I saw Decathlon back in the 1980s, I knew I would not like it."

 

The world doesn't revolve around anyone of us.

 

Aren't you the guy who said something about making games as if the world revolves around you and not really giving a crap about players?

 

From what you said in another thread, it seemed like you didn't care that much about players, so it's not a surprise that you are ignoring what I said about repetitive stress injuries. I agree with the person who said "suitable for breaking joysticks and causing RSI, but not for entertainment." Game designers have to think about more than what happens in a game, they have to make sure they're not going out of their way to injure players. Don't make the player have to quickly jerk the joystick back and forth or repeatedly press the fire button. For example, in Joust, the player can usually land on a platform (depending on the screen). The player doesn't always have to keep pressing the fire button as quickly as possible. If I knew this crap in the 1980s, more people should know it by now in the 2000s.

 

Besides all of that, we are talking about homebrews right now. We have years more information about repetitive stress injuries that they didn't have in the 1980s. We can try to make games that are fun while doing our best to avoid giving players repetitive stress injuries by not making them quickly jerk the joystick back and forth and not making them quickly press the fire button. Built-in rapid fire can help with the fire button problem so players don't have to keep quickly pressing, releasing, pressing, releasing. And like I said, we can also add a pause feature that players can use whenever they need a break or have to answer the phone or whatever.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Aren't you the guy who said something about making games as if the world revolves around you and not really giving a crap about players?

 

From what you said in another thread, it seemed like you didn't care that much about players...

Where did I say so? Actually I really want my games to PLAYED. I do not so much care for the people who just buy my games solely to put them on their shelves.

 

And yes, my personal are based on my personal world revolving around me. But I have learned to accept that everyone is living in his own world, which may be more or less different from my perspective. Not accepting this fact would be plain stupid fanaticism.

 

...so it's not a surprise that you are ignoring what I said about repetitive stress injuries. I agree with the person who said "suitable for breaking joysticks and causing RSI, but not for entertainment." Game designers have to think about more than what happens in a game, they have to make sure they're not going out of their way to injure players. Don't make the player have to quickly jerk the joystick back and forth or repeatedly press the fire button. For example, in Joust, the player can usually land on a platform (depending on the screen). The player doesn't always have to keep pressing the fire button as quickly as possible. If I knew this crap in the 1980s, more people should know it by now in the 2000s.

I am not ignoring you. But if a game may hurt the players in one way or another, this doesn't define it as no game. Lots of games played in the real world do.

 

Besides all of that, we are talking about homebrews right now. We have years more information about repetitive stress injuries that they didn't have in the 1980s. We can try to make games that are fun while doing our best to avoid giving players repetitive stress injuries by not making them quickly jerk the joystick back and forth and not making them quickly press the fire button. Built-in rapid fire can help with the fire button problem so players don't have to keep quickly pressing, releasing, pressing, releasing.

I would assume that we are all grown ups by now. So if someone decides to create a game, which may hurt you, then you should be able to decide if you take the risk or not. I don't think I will ever design such games, but I won't blame anyone from doing so.

 

And like I said, we can also add a pause feature that players can use whenever they need a break or have to answer the phone or whatever.

Nothing wrong with a pause feature. IIRC almost all the games I was involved to have it. Edited March 16, 2014 by Thomas Jentzsch

[+Random Terrain]

Where did I say so?

Here's the conversation:

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/206497-dk-vcs/?p=2835908

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/206497-dk-vcs/?p=2835927

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/206497-dk-vcs/?p=2835962

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/206497-dk-vcs/?p=2835978

 

 

 

 

I would assume that we are all grown ups by now. So if someone decides to create a game, which may hurt you, then you should be able to decide if you take the risk or not. I don't think I will ever design such games, but I won't blame anyone from doing so.

Some kids play homebrew games and it seems like many adults still don't know about repetitive stress injuries or don't think they should try to avoid repetitive stress injuries until it's too late. If some game designers aren't bright enough to think about more than what tickles their own brains, it's up to the rest of us to bring things like this to their attention.

 

 

 

 

Nothing wrong with a pause feature. IIRC almost all the games I was involved to have it.

That's good. I'd give you a cookie if I had one and could dematerialize it, attach it to this post, then have it rematerialize when you open the attachment. Maybe they'll have 3D food printers in the near future.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Here's the conversation:

Well, if you prefer to take my words out of context, there is nothing I can do about it. So I will stop replying to this point right here.

 

Some kids play homebrew games and it seems like many adults still don't know about repetitive stress injuries or don't think they should try to avoid repetitive stress injuries until it's too late. If some game designers aren't bright enough to think about more than what tickles their own brains, it's up to the rest of us to bring things like this to their attention.

None will stop you from saving the world. Carry on!

[enthusi]

A little bit off-topic but I'd prefer my kids to have so-called 'stress injuries' over them being mentally traumatized by those easy-on-the-hands splatter-zombie-games at any time.

[+Random Terrain]

A little bit off-topic but I'd prefer my kids to have so-called 'stress injuries' over them being mentally traumatized by those easy-on-the-hands splatter-zombie-games at any time.

Right, and those are your only two choices.

[enthusi]

No, its the game of one extreme vs the other.

Certainly 'stress injuries' are some extreme.

I'd also prefer boxing as sport for 2h a day over tapping on a smartphone touchable display for the same amount of time.