Mess really SUCKS

[+Schmitzi]

hmmm, would it be possible to make i.e. 4 pathes ?

 

1. \MESS.static (with the ROM; and other ROM- and HD- and DSK-pathes, NO MESS.INI and NO MESS installed in it)

2. \MESS.158b (full install, without any roms, but MESS.INI, and my old install, just for fun)

3. \MESS.159b (see 2.) WorkDir for Batch, for batch-driven, "dynamical" INI-File

4. \MESS.159bQMC2 (one more install with INI, used only by QMC2)

 

all INIs & QMC2 pointing to the ROM-pathes in the static path (1.)

(QMC2´s other folders pointed to 4.)

 

So the Working-Dir for my Batch could be the newest (3.), and there I can fiddle with the Batch in the INI-File

(searching .ROMs, .DSKs and .HDs, and adjusting the ROM-path in the INI-File automatically)

[Keatah]

Where is the dislike button?

 

If you press the like button, you can then press the unlike button! That should suffice..

 

 

 

MESS is very arcane to configure. The secret, as you found, is to create batch files for your most commonly used configurations, utilising command line parameters (%1 %2 etc) in the batch files for things like the floppy disk images and the cart images. Then it's a peice of cake.

 

I'll try working through the tedium of that again. Something about the overall design isn't ringing my bell right. And I've configured 10's or 100's of emulators for myself and others! Maybe I'll work up some screenshots of exactly what I'm trying to do.

 

It all relates to roms and their locations. The video, audio, resolutions, scaling, and peripherals stuffage, bagghh - that's a piece of cake!

 

 

 

That's odd, it's the best emulator I've ever used. Absolutely the most accurate. It works exactly like my real TI and my real Geneve do.

I think if you knew what you were talking about you'd realize that MESS is the most accurate and complete TI emulator around..

The TI-99/4A emulation within MESS itself (the part that Michael Zapf is responsible for) is by far the most accurate emulation of the TI that we have. It's an incredible piece of work.

Mizapf has done massive amounts of work to the TI emulation under MESS, picking up where Raphael left off and turning it into a first class emulation, there's no doubt.

 

Is that so?

 

 

 

With the ubiquity of today's smart phones and tablets I can certainly understand that there is some interest to get MAME or MESS running on those platforms. Many people keep saying that the PC is already dying, but I wonder whether those people indeed do their job on a tablet, including text processing, creating presentations, video work and so on. I surely don't, and I appreciate my 24" monitor and Cherry keyboard.

I would guess the current release requires a PC power of at least a high-end P4 or a Dual core machine; it does not smoothly run on PCs older than about 10 years. On my current Core i7 64 bit the TI emulation of MESS causes about 35% CPU load, running on one core (the 9995 systems, i.e. Geneve and TI-99/8, need a bit more). Maybe later someone will find out how to make better use of parallelism; this would certainly boost performance.

 

It's not that the PC is a-dyin. Just that more people are purchasing more and more phones, tablets, and phablets. And businesses and marketing departments are trumpeting those increasing sales to no end. Thus they're stealing the limelight from the PC.

 

And Windows 8 did nothing to bolster PC sales either.

 

I tend to think that the PC is, however, on its way back to being a machine for intelligent users. Users that need to think a little to get something done. With those tablet thing you don't need to think at all. Just mindlessly poke like a chicken at feeding time. The device's OS does the rest. Pluck pluck pluck bligglauwth!!

 

 

 

I think if you knew what you were talking about you'd realize that MESS is the most accurate and complete TI emulator around, and merely because it doesn't come with a fancy UI doesn't mean that it sucks.

 

With respect. It is important, extraordinarily important, to have a good usable interface. I'm not talking about dumbing it down or anything. But to have everything available in a consistent, concise, non-duplicated manner. Take for example, multiple levels of .ini files than can override a previous .ini file.

 

I feel that some of the UI (or lack of) in M.E.S.S. is from a time when hardware and storage resources were at a premium. A crusty old-man interface that only the progenitors could appreciate. The rest of us? Pffagggghhhh!

 

 

 

Right to the point. The official statement is that MAME and MESS are (originally) not written to have "users".

 

Well it certainly helps with the legal issues if that ever crops up. But MESS'n'MAME are so niche I don't think that will be a problem.

 

 

 

I actually do *not* share this attitude, but I know some MAME/MESS devs who do, and I had more than one argument over the years with respect to this point of view. Me, I just don't like to write software that is not intended to be used.

 

That's nice. And the way it should be.

 

Additionally the mark of a good developer is one that lends an ear to the installed user base. That user base may change over time or become totally & oppositely polarized against the devs. When polarization happens no one is happy, progress languishes; and soon enough the users have nothing and the program falls into disuse. Developers turn into crabby old men too.

 

 

 

Most users of MESS only make use of a very few systems..

 

I use it for maybe 5 or 6.

 

 

 

This also reflects in the user interface. It is very difficult to design a framework that is likewise user-friendly in each facet, compared to a specialized system. MAME and MESS will probably never win a prize in that category and accordingly do not even try.

 

I can see that, I noted that to myself since the first versions years back.

 

I personally dislike ohh-so-many front ends. It seems they're trying to be everything to everyone for every system. And in the process they add more complexity while forgetting the subtle details. Not to mention added bulk and things like viewers and multi-media players. None of them are consistent from one to the other either.

 

Maybe a future solution would be having plug-in interfaces for each system?

Each plug-in interface (PII for lack of better acronym and name) would cater to a specific single system like the Atari 800, one single system. Or perhaps like WinUAE, and cover a whole family of systems. One PII for all the systems in a family, all the Atari 8-bit machines. All the Atari 16-bit machines. And so on and so forth.

 

This would be a nice graphical control panel with buttons and knobs and level, things to punch and push and drag around. Switches to flip, boxes to check. Whatever! All in a plug-in, all for one individual system.

 

And that is why a lot of folks still use (and prefer) a dedicated emulator for any given system. Not necessarily because the performance is better, but because the aspects and characteristics of the "emulatee" can be easily changed. Look at all the options in Altirra. Or the nice interface in Stella.

 

 

 

Instead, the MAME project and its sister project MESS understand themselves as an endeavour to preserve the history of computing technology..

 

Yes, and the fact that the games are playable is a nice side effect. I always found that wryly humorous. Preserving a game means making it playable. I don't think anyone doubts that MAME and many other emulators do a decent job there. In fact having a game playable is the number 1 requirement. After all, when we went to the arcade as a kid we played the games! We did not look at reams of source code and futz with incomprehensible menuing systems!

 

The type of interfaces showcased in MESS and MAME are, however, suited toward a single arcade game or dedicated pong-hockey-like console. Why? They played one game. Setting up the game involves working with settings that are set one time - and tedium isn't an issue. One time! Then you can game for hours.

 

Things are much different with 8-bit computers. You've got peripherals, various forms of images, multiple controller types, memory configs, and more. To experience these systems, those options & settings must be changeable.

 

As a layperson, when I look at the executable I see absolutely nothing, nothing! ..that teaches me anything about the history of computing technology. Might as well put the control center of a particle accelerator in the 5th grade classroom. Yes kids! Step right up! Here you have the building blocks of the Universe! Go play!

 

When I look at the plans (source code) for that hypothetical control-room-in-a-classroom I see a crude representation of how thing are supposed to be. I feel I have the tools and plans to play god, but none of them work right. Targeting is off, my pliers are cutters, and the rest of the tools are made for triple jointed aliens. I have an idea what's supposed to happen, but it ain't working. The ergonomics are all wrong.

 

 

 

With the analogy of the museum, you let people in, but you don't care whether they feel comfortable. Even if there were only a few visitors, the museum is still there. In particular when it does not cost anything.

 

With complete respect that couldn't be more damaging! Let's play with the museum analogy a little. Its all about accessibility and presentation. I kid you not. If I'm going to a museum I expect it to have a nice comfortable environment, a navigable floor plan, pleasant lighting, a cafeteria with hamburgers and french fries at reasonable cost, well-documented exhibits that are in working order and of pertinent subject matter.. And most important of all, it must be presented in my language so that I may understand it and appreciate the exhibits. Otherwise it is a waste of time and I won't be back. Make your stuff presentable, usable, understandable. Make it welcoming.

 

Look at it from a simpler point of view. What good is medical technology if it's out your price range. Might as well not have been developed at all.. yes?

 

If MESS is hostile I won't use it as a reference, I won't invite my friends to view the exhibits either.

 

With MESS I occasionally come back for a quick look at its state-of-affairs because of the subject matter - no other reason. Sadly it's been languishing since opening day. Can MESS be made into a first-class emulator with premium features?

 

Please no one bring up the notion of, "you want it, you code it." To that I just say STFU. Go away. That's complete bullshit! Not all museum goers donate funds or get down and dirty laying concrete or electrical conduit. Not all museum goers have that skill. But they may give feedback about their experience, and it's in the project's best interest to consider the information that that experience brings to the table. That's where their expertise lies. This experience may have been born of an architect's or interior designer's eye. Something the construction crew typically lacks. Make use of it.

 

The best museum curators are always asking for feedback and what to do next. The ones that don't simply rot their way to irrelevance. They don't get the satisfaction of a job well done. And if they do somehow, they must be pretty small to begin with.

 

Good morning!

[Opry99er]

I'll say this much...

 

I do not use MESS. I tried a few times to set it up to be functional and never had much immediate success. So I quit using it.

 

That says more about ME than it does about MESS.

 

Many many folks on here use it every day. They had the patience and wherewithall to take the time and set it up just the way they wanted, and now they use the most accurate TI emulator out there.

 

I use Classic99 to code with and I test on hardware (when I have it set up). It suits my needs, it is simple, executable, user-friendly, has a paste feature for Notepad++ development, and it comes with all the classic games pre-installed in a nice friendly drop-down menu. That's the kind of guy I am... I like things neat and simple.

 

But again, that says much more about ME than it does about MESS. I also don't solder my own cart boards... I buy them pre-assembled. I don't program my own EPROMs, I don't develop hardware, and I don't use MESS.

 

When I have more patience, more willingness to delve into the nuances, when I become the guy that reads all the specs on Thierry Nouspikel's site and takes the time to understand sector-editing.... Then I will probably take the time to understand the beauty of what Michael and others have done in preserving our systems...

 

Until that day, I have MAD MAD MAD respect for their efforts and I applaud the hard work that goes into doing what they do.

 

 

As for me... in the meantime, I have a ton of programming and debugging to do, and to that end, Classic99 is the only way to fly in my eyes.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Opry99er

[+mizapf]

@Keetah: If I understood you correctly ... we agree in many points. I sometimes feel like justifying why MAME and MESS are just the way they are, and it is not because I just don't care whether it is easily usable or not. For most parts, it is just the problem of being a multi-emulation system. I still hope that the efforts for an enhanced user interface are progressing, but I am not directly involved in that. As far as I can tell, we will be able to attach any kind of external interface, and unlike QMC2 (which is only a launcher interface), it will play the role of the "live" OSD interface (the one with ScrlLock/TAB), so maybe we can end up with a tailored TI interface where you can insert or remove disks and cartridges on a graphical interface. We'll see.

 

Concerning my efforts in the TI MESS emulation, you can of course clone the git repository and search my name, or have a look at http://www.ninerpedia.org/index.php/MESS_version_history

[Keatah]

Yes. What is the possibility of having a plug-in interface for each system or each family of systems? One module per system or family? It would be an extended gui module that takes into consideration all the specifics of the system(s) of interest. Thus allowing each computer to have its own configuration screen.

 

Some systems have lots of memory options, others have lotsa drive choices, some have additional sound hardware, some do not. Kinda like the idea that one interface does not fit tablets, phones, and desktops all at once.

[+Schmitzi]

Hi,

 

does anybody know how I can get rid off this menu ?

I get it, also if I start mess with no floppy nor drive...no ram/drives

 

;(

 

 

 

OK, I´m turning around

 

I got the Mess with Geneve via my starter-batch almost running well now, this menu is GREAT

It helps me a lot, as I am a beginner, to find and use functions, and, of course, to make things more easy to understand

(i.e. as i can look into the menu (autoexec) to see how things start)

 

My main problem was, exiting the menu, that the Geneve passed away. This was because of my bad config

 

thx

[+Schmitzi]

Hi,

 

anybody knows how to get an underscore _ on german keyboard ?

 

puh

[+Lee Stewart]

Hi,

 

anybody knows how to get an underscore _ on german keyboard ?

 

puh

 

Isn't it SHIFT+-, i.e, SHIFT+<dash> or SHIFT+<hyphen>, same as English keyboard?

 

...lee

Edited April 11, 2015 by Lee Stewart

[+Schmitzi]

no, sorry, ♫ isn´t it ♫ isn´t it ♫ .

 

And is also not one of the other 1000 possibilties I´ve tried last hour

and, is it normally that the BackSpace-key is unsused ?????

(I have payed for that key so it may be used for free )

 

(or can I configure that ?)

thanks

Ralf

[+Lee Stewart]

Maybe you have a stuck key or somehow reconfigured it.

 

...lee

[Omega-TI]

When all else fails...

 

Hold down the ALT key, type 95 on the numeric keypad then release the ALT key.

[+Schmitzi]

No, sorry, keyboard is OK, checked that. also checked on 2 other PCs

 

ALT-key-combinations do not work inside Mess.....

 

still trying...

thanks

[+Ksarul]

Underscore is the key immediately to the right of the "period" key on a German layout. It is the Uppercase selection for the "-" key.

[+Schmitzi]

yes, like on the table here that i use, but that does not work (but all works fine in a dos-command-box)

 

[+Schmitzi]

ALT-U or ALTgr-U !!

 

Puh, about two hours for one keypress , that was really fast

[+Schmitzi]

...the very hardest issue is that the backspace-key simply does not work. it really does not work... where is the sense of that ?

maybe there is an option to configure that standard ?

 

btw, thanks to all here

Ralf

[Flottmann1]

see here (german Keys)

 

Edited April 11, 2015 by Flottmann1

[+Schmitzi]

ah thanks. but what do user with the Emu that do not have the real iron to watch that ?

sorry, but I also did not find any doku to that....

[TI994A]

They Use Clasic99 !!!

[+mizapf]

ah thanks. but what do user with the Emu that do not have the real iron to watch that ?

sorry, but I also did not find any doku to that....

 

Ralf, you can use the "natural" keyboard mode (either start with -natural or use the OSD menu). However, it has some other disadvantages; it is a bit sluggish, and you have to use the latest MESS release because there was a release where the Enter key did not work in natural mode.

 

You did not notice until now that MESS is emulating the real TI keyboard?

 

(And before people start asking ... yes, that's on purpose. )

[+Schmitzi]

super, danke, I will try that keyboard-mode tonight. maybe a good mitigation.

is there any trick to know in natural mode, for having i.e. FCTN-xyz ?

(before I need some more threads here

 

yes, I always use actual versions (if I get aware of an update)

yes, I noticed that it is something "like" TI-keyboard, but I don´t have the TI-keys in my mind....

..but working on it

[+mizapf]

Actually, my suggestion is to make a photograph of the TI keyboard (or use the one above), print it, and put it next to your keyboard, at least for the first time. You'd be surprised how fast you get used to the emulated layout. Sometimes I find myself trying to type AltGr-P into a normal PC editor, expecting to get quotes, until I notice that my mind continues with the emulated layout outside of MESS.

 

We had a discussion only a few weeks ago here on AA, concerning the natural keyboard mode. For instance, MESS can only map keys in that mode that actually represent a known keystroke on the PC. In particular, while the usual characters from the ASCII set are unproblematic, also including the F1-F10 keys, keystrokes like CTRL-A do not produce a character on the PC, and hence there is no way to map it to a set of keys on the TI keyboard.

[+Lee Stewart]

Here’s a TI-99/4A keyboard graphic I put together a few years ago that might help:

 

 

...lee

[Tursi]

There's also this handy reference from Mainbyte:

 

 

 

 

 

[+mizapf]

Lee's one is slightly more useful for us QWERTZ people.