Spelunker - Possible Bug?

[Island2Live]

First post here at AtariAge and first serious question:

About »Spelunker« which I am desperately playing right now on »Altirra 2.40«.

I know the game from »my« good old times in 1983 where it never really caught my attention. I liked the graphics and the idea of such a colossal cave packed in my Atari 800 computer. But the joystick controls were more than delicate at that time. So I gave up very frustrated.

Up until beginning of March this year. So 31 years later I am playing the game again and I started to love it. Up until yesterday.

For those who don't know the game please stop reading because the following is a deep spoiler what will come in the game.

For all others: In the 2nd Level at the waterfall there is a light blue barrel. I understand I have to climb into that barrel - just touch it with the player - and swim to the left until I reach the shore. The problem is at the very moment I climb into the barrel movement of the player completely stopped. I am sitting there at the bottom of the waterfall without being able to move and until my time runs out or the white ghost touches me. Look here:

 

Does anyone know what I am doing wrong? Did I catch a bug in the game or maybe in the emulator? Or is this some kind of a copy protection in the game?

 

Specs
Emulator: Altirra 2.40
Setting: Atari 600/800XL, 64 Kbyte RAM, PAL
Game: »Spelunker«, disc-version by »MicroGraphicImage« (no Broderbund)

Kind regards,
Henrik (Island2Live)

[Island2Live]

OK, problem solved. It appears to be a bug in »Altirra 2.40«. Not 100 percent sure though because Altirra has many many options and I am not sure if I mis-fiddled with something.

 

I've replayed the game using the »Broderbund« version with the slightly changed sound effects and the animated intro on Altirra 2.40: Same bug.

 

I've replayed the game (Borderbund version) once again on »Atari800Win 3.0«: No bug! I've jumped the barrel and went to the left shore, collected the green »rope device«, went back to the barrel, went to the right shore and so on. No problem.

 

I have to look into the bug list for Altirra 2.40 and/or eMail them about what I've found.

 

Kind regards,

Henrik (Island2Live)

[Rybags]

I think I've encountered that problem, can't remember why. Might be if Basic is enabled it causes problems.

 

I do know, if you walk the wrong way once you're in the barrel, you get stuck on the island at the right if you go there first.

[phaeron]

Uh, while I'd like to look into this... it's pretty much impossible unless someone can tell me an easy way to get to level 2, because I suck at this game.

[Island2Live]

I think I've encountered that problem, can't remember why. Might be if Basic is enabled it causes problems.

 

I do know, if you walk the wrong way once you're in the barrel, you get stuck on the island at the right if you go there first.

Thank you for your reply ... there's no problem with the BASIC though. I've checked and double checked. »Spelunker (Micro GraphicsImages)« crashes at boot and »Spelunker (Borderbund)« instantly responds with

 

REQUIRED 48K OF RAM.

 

if BASIC is installed.

 

The problem is not reaching the right island first. Please look at my screenshot: I am stuck exactly at that point without being able to move left or right.

 

Uh, while I'd like to look into this... it's pretty much impossible unless someone can tell me an easy way to get to level 2, because I suck at this game.

Unfortunately there is no easy way to get to that point into the game. That's part of the gameplay (and I am particular proud of myself to get to that point relative easily right now). BUT: If you like I can provide a saved »State« where the player is exactly in front of the barrel. You only have to enter the barrel.

 

Kind regards,

Henrik (Island2Live)

[Rybags]

Hi Avery.

 

If you're not much good, disabling collision detection will be a big help. You have to re-enable for certain pickups and stuff though.

 

I'm going out for a while now, but could create a Save State later on if wanted - just name Altirra version required.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Rybags

[Island2Live]

Here's my save »State« where the player is directly in front of the barrel. Hope this helps:

 

spelunker_barrel_error_altirra_2_40.zip

 

Side note

Disabling collision detection does help some to get to this point of the game but the player can nevertheless fall off from ledges or miss the moving green elevator platforms.

 

This gives as a by effect an interesting insight of how the game programmed: The player figure is pixel accurate positioned above the pixel of the ground. I am pretty sure they are using ANTIC mode 4 (haven't looked into the display list right now) because of the easy of making all the playfield animations in the game (elevator, vulcano smokes, etc.) and the easy of inserting all the collectable items (battery, magic dust, artifacts). But since the player figure moves up and down when walking over the rough ground the program most probably scans the topmost set pixel in each mode 4 character on the screen beneath the player figure. The »hot spot« of the player figure seems to be his tip/frontmost pixel of his foot:

 

 

Very interesting ... and even more enjoyable since I know how much fine tuning went into this game!

 

Kind regards,

Henrik (Island2Live)

Edited March 7, 2014 by Island2Live

[Island2Live]

[[ deleted due to dublicate post ]]

Edited March 7, 2014 by Island2Live

[phaeron]

Alright, I managed to get there by horribly abusing save states (quick load/save bound to Shift+F4/F2). I don't understand how you were supposed to play this normally as I died a couple of hundred times trying to get here....

 

Attached is a disk snapshot of the game at the beginning of the waterfall screen on the version I tried (you'll need the XL/XE rev.2 OS enabled and video set to NTSC). So far, the behavior seems to be the same between Altirra 2.40, 2.50-test, and Atari800WinPLus 4.0.... haven't had a chance to try it on real hardware yet. One thing that does come to mind is that this part either seems pretty buggy in general or I don't know how it's supposed to work. If I exit to the left, the barrel reappears on the shore and the spelunker can't get back into it, but he can walk under water. If I exit to the right, the water is lethal as expected, but the barrel disappears.

 

spelunker.atr

[Island2Live]

Thank you for spending your time to get to this point in the game.

 

I've tried your disk-snapshot ... and, well ... that is interesting, same problem: I am not able to move left or right. I am stuck at the bottom of the waterfall inside the barrel. Changing to NTSC does not help (I am usually playing in PAL). Are you able to move the player figure when you reach the bottom of the waterfall?

 

Kind regards,

Henrik (Island2Live)

[Mclaneinc]

Edit: Just reread the thread....All I can say is that it DOES work properly (sometimes) on the latest beta of Altirra with it set to XL, pal in my case and using the real roms not the HLE etc..

 

 

When you get in the barrel you go down the waterfall to the bottom and then LEFT, jump across all the stuff and pick up the green item on the top left and then go back, get in the barrel and go right, pick up the health and a ladder will now appear..

 

EDIT2: Interesting, kept retesting to see if it happened to me and it did, playing with XBox360 controller and suddenly started getting intermittent loss of control, if I set to arrow keys NO loss of control..

 

If I waggled the controller wildly it would come back to life.

 

Worked first time for me with pad but after that it started and stopped..

Edited March 7, 2014 by Mclaneinc

[Island2Live]

Edit: Just reread the thread....All I can say is that it DOES work properly on the latest beta of Altirra with it set to XL, pal in my case and using the real roms not the HLE etc..

 

When you get in the barrel you go down the waterfall to the bottom and then LEFT, jump across all the stuff and pick up the green item on the top left and then go back, get in the barrel and go right, pick up the health and a ladder will now appear..

Have you tried both my saved State and the disk snapshot of Avery? Both do not work here at my desktop (using »Atari 400/800« with »OS B« and »Atari 600/800XL« with »OS XL«, both in NTSC and PAL). But it works on »Atari800Win PLus 3.0«. Strange ... ?

 

Kind regards,

Henrik (Island2Live)

Edited March 7, 2014 by Island2Live

[Mclaneinc]

Henrik, re read my post, its been altered several times...I do see the issue, I'll bet you are playing with a Xbox360 pad?

 

And yes, used the save state Avery made..

Edited March 7, 2014 by Mclaneinc

[Mclaneinc]

Phaeron, could something be stealing window focus that would only affect a pad if connected?

 

Because I'm connected by fibre I'm normally online all the time, will turn off the router etc and disable (as much as I can) Comodo and Avira, my fire wall and AV.

 

As you know a couple of us have reported this sudden loss of control before with the 360 pads but I've not seen it as bad as this for ages..I know a resetting of the settings seemed to cure it for a while but not keen to go down that until I tried the others bits.

[Mclaneinc]

Nope...Tried the lot, after a while the sticking started to happen again, made it across and back a few times but stuck for a few secs at times most of the time..

[Mclaneinc]

Just to prove it is working at times but it stuck 3 times before I got back to the other side and the rope appeared..

[Island2Live]

Henrik, re read my post, its been altered several times...I do see the issue, I'll bet you are playing with a Xbox360 pad?

...

Now THAT is an interesting thought ... the controller! No, I am not playing with an Xbox360-controller ... but with an original PS3-controller connected through an USB cable. I can confirm the controller does not loose control during the game. Even at the point in the game where I am stuck. Just because the Borderbund-version of Spelunker has an additional sound effect when walking with the player figure (»tick tick tick«). Now, when I am stuck at said point in the game and I move to left or right I can clearly hear that walking sound. So Altirra 2.40 and the game actually do receive controller information.

 

BUT: Just to tried everything I switched from Joypad control to keyboard ... and it WORKED! Now I can move the barrel to the left, climb out and collect the green item I need.

 

So it really must be something with the input control. BUT KEEP IN MIND: It's strange because I can hear from the walking sound the Altirra 2.40 and the game do react to the input control from my PS3-joypad.

 

 

Real Game Bug

As Avery stated earlier I can confirm a bug in the game. Do the following: When you first enter the barrel go down the waterfall and die somehow - for example the ghost catches you. Now you respawn exactly at the barrel on top of the waterfall. Meaning you instantly go down again without any chance to do something different. But this second time down the waterfall the barrel moves a bit different. When you are down below you can't move to the left again. Only to the right. But since you don't have the green »rope gun« from the left screen you are doomed. By dying you will respawn again driectly inside the barell reproducing the same bug again and again. until you are out of players.

 

Kind regards,

Henrik (Island2Live)

Edited March 7, 2014 by Island2Live

[+slx]

I played through all of Spelunker (a bootleg copy) on an 800XL in the early 1990s and can't remember any bugs preventing me from finishing the game (although I do remember it took numerous attempts and lots of patience to get to the end, both of which I didn't have as a teenager in the late 80s when I tried it for the first time).

 

One of my all-time favorites on the Atari and technically very well done. I find the curious mixture of a rather leisurely pace mixed with a certain sense of urgency due to the diminishing oxygen interesting.

[+slx]

Real Game Bug

As Avery stated earlier I can confirm a bug in the game. Do the following: When you first enter the barrel go down the waterfall and die somehow - for example the ghost catches you. Now you respawn exactly at the barrel on top of the waterfall. Meaning you instantly go down again without any chance to do something different. But this second time down the waterfall the barrel moves a bit different. When you are down below you can't move to the left again. Only to the right. But since you don't have the green »rope gun« from the left screen you are doomed. By dying you will respawn again driectly inside the barell reproducing the same bug again and again. until you are out of players.

 

 

So I guess I was just lucky (or skilled enough ) to avoid that logical bug back then....

 

Don't let that deter you and continue, it's worthwhile!

[Rybags]

I just tried that state save twice in Altirra 2.40 and it worked fine for me. Get in the barrel, go down then left as you should, get the stuff on the other screen, cross the river again and activate the rope.

 

Re how he goes over the terrain - pretty nifty, it can change on a per-pixel basis so it seems the program goes to the trouble of scanning the actual character data to determine how high he should stand. Should be easy enough - use one of 4 possible masks then go through ANDing the data until the first nonzero value is found, that determines where the ground is.

[Mclaneinc]

Odd, don't know if it makes any difference but I tried NUMEROUS times with the controller set to gamepad instead of Xbox360 controller and it never locked once, same with keyboard.

 

Just went back and tried it another 10 times and no stops as a gamepad?

[Island2Live]

Big misunderstanding and probably RTFM-error on my side ... so as a conclusion the fault is totally here on my side. Here is why:

 

Odd, don't know if it makes any difference but I tried NUMEROUS times with the controller set to gamepad instead of Xbox360 controller and it never locked once, same with keyboard.

 

Just went back and tried it another 10 times and no stops as a gamepad?

That triggered an idea: I always used the option

 

Xbox 360 Controller -> Joystick / Paddle (800/XL)

 

See here:

 

 

when playing games on the Altirra 2.40. I never got even the glimpse of an idea this could be wrong. To make my PlayStation 3 controller work on the PC I used a freeware USB driver which is named »MotionJoy Gamepad tool«. I always thought Altirra is scanning for available additional drivers in the

 

Input -> Port x

 

menu and just names found drivers as »Xbox 360 Controller«. But the entry »Xbox 360 Controller« is always there, probably because Avery was so kind to build such a driver native into his Altirra.

 

So: Completely my fault! I changed the Input to

 

Gamepad 1 -> Joystick (port 1)

 

and everything is great again!

 

Thank you for all your support and sorry for the confusion!

 

So I guess I was just lucky (or skilled enough ) to avoid that logical bug back then....

 

Don't let that deter you and continue, it's worthwhile!

Of course! To be honest playing Spelunker was some kind of research about retro games in the beginning. I feel the urge to develop something on my own. Then the game hit hit me ... and now I am playing it like mad (and I am pretty trained right now to get to the waterfall).

 

Kind regards,

Henrik (Island2Live)