Heretic

[zzip]

18 minutes ago, phoboz said:

Yes, it's much harder to deal with a 5 processor distributed system (with 16/32, 32, and 64bit CPUs), rather than one simple 8-bit CPU controlling everything.

Those older 8-bit systems have their share of odd-technical challenges as well that newer systems don't have to deal with (very limited memory, color placement restrictions, "chase the beam" on the 2600).   I think it's really a matter of know-how.   Better programming documentation + better tutorials along with better emulators I think would bring more coders in looking for a challenge.

[agradeneu]

5 minutes ago, zzip said:

Those older 8-bit systems have their share of odd-technical challenges as well that newer systems don't have to deal with (very limited memory, color placement restrictions, "chase the beam" on the 2600).   I think it's really a matter of know-how.   Better programming documentation + better tutorials along with better emulators I think would bring more coders in looking for a challenge.

Phoboz is also programming games for the Vectrex, he probably knows the difference pretty well.

 

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, Gunstar said:

You are missing something...but I haven't been involved for years now in the actual online community and it will stay that way except for these few posts here now. I spend my time in the 8-bit community where they are actually still pushing the hardware to "new limits" with software and hardware unlike the poor Jag and community. I do love the new game drive I waited about 3 decades to happen. But I have been involved with a group of Jaguar developers (a couple actual commercial developers for the Jag back in the day) for about a year now, behind the scenes in secret, but it will be some time yet before we come forward. Of course this is all hearsay until we do come forward so...luckily I care not what most people in this community have to say about me, hell many have been in ignore for years and many of you here now weren't around when I was and I have no opinion about you.

 

Fear not! once this sentence is typed, I will disappear again as I prefer to have enjoyable experiences with forums and as per usual, it never happens in this one.

I can feel your frustration. I hope you are feeling better now. Regarding your game, I am not holding my breath. You know, when you were around regularly, we had chaps like Stormworks Interactive being the primary Jag developers. And 64 bit vapourware like "Defcon 5". Great times, duh! 

Edited November 15, 2021 by agradeneu

[phoboz]

The 2 most popular generes in Indie games today are:

1. Metroidvania

2. Roguelike

We already covered Roguelike with Kings of Edom, and soon the Metroidvania genere will be covered by Asteroite.

 

I could have become an Indie developer for modern consoles, but I choose the Jaguar because the modern consoles has dozens of Roguelikes, and Metroidvanias, while the Jaguar had none.

Edited November 15, 2021 by phoboz

[joeatari1]

6 minutes ago, phoboz said:

I could have become an Indie developer for modern consoles, but I choose the Jaguar because the modern consoles has dozens of Roguelikes, and Metroidvanias, while the Jaguar had none.

And we thank you for it!

[phoboz]

26 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Phoboz is also programming games for the Vectrex, he probably knows the difference pretty well.

The Vectrex community sometimes praise me for pushing that console to the limit, bit I simply did what I had to do in order to realize my game idea. Not to brag about my 8-bit programming skills.

[+Sauron]

6 hours ago, Gunstar said:

You are missing something...but I haven't been involved for years now in the actual online community and it will stay that way except for these few posts here now. I spend my time in the 8-bit community where they are actually still pushing the hardware to "new limits" with software and hardware unlike the poor Jag and community. I do love the new game drive I waited about 3 decades to happen. But I have been involved with a group of Jaguar developers (a couple actual commercial developers for the Jag back in the day) for about a year now, behind the scenes in secret, but it will be some time yet before we come forward. Of course this is all hearsay until we do come forward so...luckily I care not what most people in this community have to say about me, hell many have been in ignore for years and many of you here now weren't around when I was and I have no opinion about you.

 

Fear not! once this sentence is typed, I will disappear again as I prefer to have enjoyable experiences with forums and as per usual, it never happens in this one.

The amount of entitlement in your posts is incredible. I'm sure all of the 8-bit developers pushing the 8-bits "to their limits" are glad to have you hanging around, likewise with the secretive Jaguar devs that you mentioned. What I'd like to hear you explain, though, is what exactly is a game that is "worthy" of being on the Jag, and why the number of homebrews we've gotten over the years apparently don't live up to your expectations? 

 

As far as having enjoyable experiences in forums, the Jag forum has been pretty nice the last few years. If you're not having a good experience in it, then perhaps you should take a good look at to who is really at fault for that.

 

[phoenixdownita]

4 hours ago, phoboz said:

Because it's a great console to develop new pixelart games for, without the limitations of the "older" 16-bit consoles (e.g. indexed color, memory constraints) Because the developer can focus on making a great game without worring about pushing the hardware to some limits. To use modern programming languages (used for developing indie games today for modern consoles) rather than pure assembly writing to strange harware registers.

 

Simply for being able to focus all time, and attention on making a great game, and not fancy tech demos without any depth.

 

Nobody complains if an indie game looks "16-bit" if it's released today for a modern console. Why does every game have to be a fancy tech demo for retro consoles?

That's true for all of the consoles after the 16bits which were more challenged than later ones. 
And "the developer can focus on making a great game without worring about pushing the hardware to some limits" is all the more true with modern systems, PC and phones included.

I am not dissing your work, far from me but there's a little of "small pond" going on.

Take the Genesis/MD game Pier Solar, big splash on the MD while not so popular on XB360 and the other systems it got ported to, at least nowhere near the level of fanfare it had around the MD release.
Not stating your most recent productions would face a similar fate if they were available say on Steam for PC, at the same time "using modern languages" is not a Jaguar thing either.

I understand you enjoy developing for Jag and nothing wrong with it but it is a self-serving statement to try to justify why.
It's literally "you like it because you like it" and all the rest of the above is really irrelevant imho.

Keep doing what you enjoy but if I may we can avoid attempting to find deeper reasons aside from the fact that you find it a fun thing to do with your time and talent and of course Jag fans appreciate that (no reasons not to).
 

[+CyranoJ]

19 hours ago, Gunstar said:

Now nearly 3 decades of carrots and a community and developer community more jaded than ever 

Quote

But I have been involved with a group of Jaguar developers (a couple actual commercial developers for the Jag back in the day) for about a year now, behind the scenes in secret, but it will be some time yet before we come forward. Of course this is all hearsay until we do come forward so...luckily I care not what most people in this community have to say about me, hell many have been in ignore for years and many of you here now weren't around when I was and I have no opinion about you.

 

Who would have thought that someone hailing from JS2, acting like an entitled prick, would have double standards?

 

That forum was such a cess pool of waste. I wish it would come back, get all the old guard members inside, and lock the doors again. At least it kept them contained.

[phoboz]

47 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

"you like it because you like it"

Sure I do, and I also enjoy the attention, and appriciation I get from the Jaguar community. My games would probably drown in the endless stream of Indie games for modern consoles, PC, and mobile devices.

 

There is no higher purpose for me than to do the games I would enjoy to play myself. It is a great bonus that more than a handfull people play, and some even make videos, and talk about my games online.

 

I was actually quite surprised when I released my first Vectrex game; That a considerable ammount of people actually ordered the game. Initially I thouht it would sell at most 2-3 copies. This is also what keeps me going for the Jaguar.

[phoenixdownita]

2 hours ago, phoboz said:

Sure I do, and I also enjoy the attention, and appriciation I get from the Jaguar community. My games would probably drown in the endless stream of Indie games for modern consoles, PC, and mobile devices.

 

There is no higher purpose for me than to do the games I would enjoy to play myself. It is a great bonus that more than a handfull people play, and some even make videos, and talk about my games online.

 

I was actually quite surprised when I released my first Vectrex game; That a considerable ammount of people actually ordered the game. Initially I thouht it would sell at most 2-3 copies. This is also what keeps me going for the Jaguar.

That is the perfect explanation!!!!

 

Thanks for developing for these old platforms and keep doing what you enjoy doing  nothing else really matters.

Yesterday I managed to try the vecMulti flash cart (I had it since 2019 but never had a chance to try it) and aside a temperamental SD card (took me a good 30mins to get one working) eventually I managed to play me some Vectrex .... I enjoyed a little of VecVaders and Tanks (tried a bunch of others which did not hold my attention much so I forgot their name)... was done in 15mins but hey it is what it is.

I do not dig homebrew much (I only purchased "Alice Mom's Rescue" for Jag from Orion out of curiosity) because I personally am interested in the productions that went on during the time those consoles were on sale (it's my thing, it's neither right nor wrong, it just is) but I can appreciate people devoting time to keep them going so many years later.

 

Edit: oh yeah I am spending a little time here and there with the recent Doom 32x Resurrection "romhack", more to see what the new patches bring than actually playing through the whole nine yards, pretty well done imho, another example of people with talent and time that do what they enjoy doing. Not sure it qualifies as homebrew, so maybe I do dig a little of homebrew here and there.
 

[phoboz]

13 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

I do not dig homebrew much (I only purchased "Alice Mom's Rescue" for Jag from Orion out of curiosity) because I personally am interested in the productions that went on during the time those consoles were on sale

Then you are probably better off getting a SNES with an Everdrive.

 

Some of the most interesting titles for the Jaguar were released after it's commercial lifetime, e.g. Battlesphere, Protector, Zero 5, Another World, Towers II, to name a few.

Edited November 16, 2021 by phoboz

[saboteur]

Just thought i'd drop by this thread and say what a pile of **** the jag is and to rubbish all the developers and homebrewers in the jag community for not producing Call of Duty 41 on the jag and really showing it's potential.

 

Right that's that ticked off the list, now im off to sleep with your wives, drown a sack of puppies and torch an orphanage - see you in a few years.

 

?????

 

 

[vrocko]

10 minutes ago, saboteur said:

Just thought i'd drop by this thread and say what a pile of **** the jag is and to rubbish all the developers and homebrewers in the jag community for not producing Call of Duty 41 on the jag and really showing it's potential.

 

Right that's that ticked off the list, now im off to sleep with your wives, drown a sack of puppies and torch an orphanage - see you in a few years.

 

?????

 

 

Wow you did in two sentences what I was going to do with a book! I salute you!!!!! 

[phoenixdownita]

6 hours ago, phoboz said:

Then you are probably better off getting a SNES with an Everdrive.

 

Some of the most interesting titles for the Jaguar were released after it's commercial lifetime, e.g. Battlesphere, Protector, Zero 5, Another World, Towers II, to name a few.

Not sure why you felt the need to be condescending, but sure I already have all the consoles I care for with related flash carts as appropriate.
I may have offended you somehow so I feel I have to apologize for that, it was not my intent, sorry about that. 

Interesting is obviously a relative and subjective term, I did try Battlesphere via repro cart and I have no interest in it (and the same is obviously true for many of the commercial releases), I did like a bit of WTR on JagCD and I admit I do spend more than my fair share of time watching Bad Apple demo from CJ over and over and over again .... it's hypnotic (that single typo in the overlay text really gets me each time: "paralying agony"

... is there a new version? obviously I can live without the fix, just asking in case I missed it). 

[+neogeo1982]

This thread just promotes bad behavior. Similar to the Made in America thread.

[+neogeo1982]

Maybe this will devolve into a fight about car makers again 

[vrocko]

46 minutes ago, neogeo1982 said:

This thread just promotes bad behavior. Similar to the Made in America thread.

That's what trolls do. Promote bad behavior. Ignore it. Atari Age forums are great and we always have new things to see and talk about. 

 

“When people are doing their utmost to upset you, it's probably best to just laugh at them.”
― Wayne Gerard Trotman

[phoboz]

2 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

I may have offended you somehow

No, I am not offended personally, I just think it's unfair that you cathegorically reject a whole range of games (without even trying all of them first) just because the release date happen to surpass the date the host console was taken off the market.

 

This argument doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny, but that's just my opinion.

 

Is it to much to ask of you to be a little bit more open minded?

Edited November 16, 2021 by phoboz

[phoenixdownita]

12 hours ago, phoboz said:

No, I am not offended personally, I just think it's unfair that you cathegorically reject a whole range of games (without even trying all of them first) just because the release date happen to surpass the date the host console was taken off the market.

 

This argument doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny, but that's just my opinion.

 

Is it to much to ask of you to be a little bit more open minded?

I am not rejecting anything, I want to relive what was available back then (nostalgia) and what I missed back then (now that I can afford those "other systems"). It's an arbitrary choice as any other and in no way related to the quality of more modern homebrews.

 

Also aside the occasional freebie, homebrews are not cheap for whatever reason (small production, limited audience, etc...etc...) and I just do not want to spend that much (Orion's Alice Mom's Rescue on JagCD was an exception), again an arbitrary choice of where I want to spend money, plus there are so many games I have not played from the original runs and I have so many systems laying around that I'll get buried (for real) before I even have a chance to see any meaningful amount of those OG games. The fact that the romz and flashcarts are now widely available makes pursuing that experience all the easier.

I am not passing judgment on homebrews in the least, far from me, my choice is a self imposed limit to both curb the spending and the accumulation of clutter (flashcarts helped a whole lot in this regard). I am going over an over about purchasing Rebooteroids though, I like Galaxy Wars on Wii and so it may be right up my alley but again I still find it expensive (I know it may just be a perception).

 

[phoboz]

23 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

homebrews are not cheap for whatever reason

A good gaming experience is like tasting an expensive wine, you try harder to enjoy it if you paid more for it.

 

I have been there, to have 100:s of free games to try. It's like swapping channels on the telly, and not find anything to watch...

Edited November 16, 2021 by phoboz

[Bill Loguidice]

33 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

I am not passing judgment on homebrews in the least, far from me, my choice is a self imposed limit to both curb the spending and the accumulation of clutter (flash carts helped a whole lot in this regard). I am going over an over about purchasing Rebooteroids though, I like Galaxy Wars on Wii and so it may be right up my alley but again I still find it expensive (I know it may just be a perception).
 

I try to keep my homebrew purchases to a minimum these days and the Jaguar rarely makes the cut anymore with just a few exceptions. I made sure I got Impulse X/Double Feature and Rebooteroids for the rotary support (I'm a sucker for spinner controls). I think they're well worth it if you're into those types of controls.

[phoenixdownita]

11 hours ago, phoboz said:

A good gaming experience is like tasting an expensive wine, you try harder to enjoy it if you paid more for it.

 

I have been there, to have 100:s of free games to try. It's like swapping channels on the telly, and not find anything to watch...

That does not do it for me, "Have you tried hard enough?" and "have you tried them all?" are fallacious arguments, let alone "you enjoy it more if you paid it through your nose" .... Fight for Live is a bad game, so is Superman64, Kang-Fu for CD32 is a bad game, Wild Streets on GX4000 is a bad game etc.. etc.. etc... and thank god I didn't have to pay for any of them, Kasumi Ninja is something I even finished ... once ..... and I do not intend to endure it again and in this instance I have the actual cart for it so no, paying for it did not make me try harder to enjoy it, same goes for Bubsy, I may have tried harder on Trevor McFur still think it's not a good game however when I switched my Jag in 50Hz mode I didn't die as much.

At a point when I asked why homebrew was expensive to produce I got told the professional looking boxes and manuals and carts were the reason, then they weren't ..... dunno if it is feasible but in addition to a 70-80US$ cart with box and manual is a 15US$ download (now that the GD is a thing) not also possible? If it is not 15US$ is 30US$ possible? 

Edit: it seems it is possible https://www.the8bitguy.com/product/petscii-robots/ 10US$ for digital, 20US$ for disk and manuals (they look good enough to me but maybe they're cheaply made) etc...etc.... to higher tiers at 50US$ with autograph (does a Jag cart add 30US$ instead of the disk as a media? not sure, his std 40US$ version includes a SNES ctrl adapter, the Atari version that does not have the adapter is 5US$ cheaper so I guess that's more or less the cost of it).

Edit 2: I forgot I purchased Simone as well (have not had the time to play it .... gosh), so I guess I am not completely no homebrew

Edit 3: fixed the above by breaking the seal on the packaging and finally putting it in on the JagCD ... worked first try ... not bad for a 25+Y old peripheral (admittedly I don't use it much).

[LordKraken]

To be fair The-8-bit-guy has a large audience and his sales are in the thousands, so with such high numbers (all is relative of course), you save A LOT on production costs.

-> For instance, if 100 big boxes cost you 1000us$, this might go down to 2000us$ if you order 500 (I'm making up numbers here but but you get the idea).

[agradeneu]

14 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

That does not do it for me, "Have you tried hard enough?" and "have you tried them all?" are fallacious arguments, let alone "you enjoy it more if you paid it through your nose" .... Fight for Live is a bad game, so is Superman64, Kang-Fu for CD32 is a bad game, Wild Streets on GX4000 is a bad game etc.. etc.. etc... and thank god I didn't have to pay for any of them, Kasumi Ninja is something I even finished ... once ..... and I do not intend to endure it again and in this instance I have the actual cart for it so no, paying for it did not make me try harder to enjoy it, same goes for Bubsy, I may have tried harder on Trevor McFur still think it's not a good game however when I switched my Jag in 50Hz mode I didn't die as much.

At a point when I asked why homebrew was expensive to produce I got told the professional looking boxes and manuals and carts were the reason, then they weren't ..... dunno if it is feasible but in addition to a 70-80US$ cart with box and manual is a 15US$ download (now that the GD is a thing) not also possible? If it is not 15US$ is 30US$ possible? 

Edit: it seems it is possible https://www.the8bitguy.com/product/petscii-robots/ 10US$ for digital, 20US$ for disk and manuals (they look good enough to me but maybe they're cheaply made) etc...etc.... to higher tiers at 50US$ with autograph (does a Jag cart add 30US$ instead of the disk as a media? not sure, his std 40US$ version includes a SNES ctrl adapter, the Atari version that does not have the adapter is 5US$ cheaper so I guess that's more or less the cost of it).

Edit 2: I forgot I purchased Simone as well (have not had the time to play it .... gosh), so I guess I am not completely no homebrew

Edit 3: fixed the above by breaking the seal on the packaging and finally putting it in on the JagCD ... worked first try ... not bad for a 25+Y old peripheral (admittedly I don't use it much).

 

I don't quite understand your logic - so you suggest any homebrew is just as bad as Jaguars worst commercial games and not worth the price? But you are only buying homebrews if they are very cheap?

I agree to some extent that an high price does not make a good game. Otherwise a cheap price does not make a game more worthwhile.

 

BTW there are freebies releases, e.g. Reboots collection for GD, Gravitic Mines Demo or Biopede.

 

Cheaper downloadable ROMs for GD would be a nice option, but people still want their physical releases and boxes. They can coexist.