Heretic

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, LordKraken said:

To be fair The-8-bit-guy has a large audience and his sales are in the thousands, so with such high numbers (all is relative of course), you save A LOT on production costs.

-> For instance, if 100 big boxes cost you 1000us$, this might go down to 2000us$ if you order 500 (I'm making up numbers here but but you get the idea).

Comparing 8 bit to Jaguar games does not work well - Jaguar games need more ROM space and time to create.

[LordKraken]

I was reacting to the fact that the-8-bits guy sell his physical game in a nice box for half the price of jaguar (and even less sometimes)

[Lostdragon]

On 11/15/2021 at 2:13 PM, Gunstar said:

You are missing something...but I haven't been involved for years now in the actual online community and it will stay that way except for these few posts here now. I spend my time in the 8-bit community where they are actually still pushing the hardware to "new limits" with software and hardware unlike the poor Jag and community. I do love the new game drive I waited about 3 decades to happen. But I have been involved with a group of Jaguar developers (a couple actual commercial developers for the Jag back in the day) for about a year now, behind the scenes in secret, but it will be some time yet before we come forward. Of course this is all hearsay until we do come forward so...luckily I care not what most people in this community have to say about me, hell many have been in ignore for years and many of you here now weren't around when I was and I have no opinion about you.

 

Fear not! once this sentence is typed, I will disappear again as I prefer to have enjoyable experiences with forums and as per usual, it never happens in this one.

I do wish people who claim involvement with commercial Jaguar titles back in the day, would come out with actual specifics. 

 

Name roles they played and on what titles. 

 

 

I last saw something like this with Leeroy ST and his role with a previously unheard of Ninja team of crack coders hired by Atari to improve animation on Jaguar titles like Bubsy ?

 

 

He was never able to provide anything of any real substance and the team has never been confirmed as being real. 

 

 

If you worked on any commercial Jaguar project back in the day, please name it, detail your role, talk about your experiences with the hardware, with the Tramiels etc. 

 

Did the title reach the market? If not, what killed it? 

 

 

There are ample mouthpieces from the commercial Jaguar era as it is, giving missleading information, we don't need more individuals adding to the nonsense sprouted by the likes of Martin Hooley, Jane Whittaker etc. 

 

 

Why would you want to keep your involvement on a title maybe 25 years+ old now, such a secret, when by sharing your memories abd experiences, the current Jaguar community could benifit? 

 

 

Why attack those who have given so much in order to keep the Jaguar scene alive, make vague claims of cough, cough, involvement, sa no more sir and then annouce your going to dissappear from the discussion, when you could of told us what you worked on? 

 

 

It just doesn't make any sense. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Lostdragon

[+CyranoJ]

7 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

It just doesn't make any sense. 

If you factor in 'JS2' it makes perfect sense.

[Bill Loguidice]

5 hours ago, LordKraken said:

To be fair The-8-bit-guy has a large audience and his sales are in the thousands, so with such high numbers (all is relative of course), you save A LOT on production costs.

-> For instance, if 100 big boxes cost you 1000us$, this might go down to 2000us$ if you order 500 (I'm making up numbers here but but you get the idea).

Yeah, it's difficult to compare what he did to what others have done and/or can do. He has a large audience that's a known factor and it's a relatively unique multiplatform game concept with development documented over several videos. And the version of the game that I ordered from him, for example, works on the PET, C-64, and VIC-20, so that opens up the audience even further (not that you need anything larger than the C-64, but the point remains). Because of all of those known quantities he was able to offer a full color commercial-quality box, disk and sleeve, manual, and a SNES user-port controller adapter. On the flip-side, he has also talked about versions of the game for some of the less popular platforms possibly not having boxes or not including other items, because he doesn't feel like the sales would justify the expense. I think he also might re-use the original box for some versions and just put stickers over the original platform-specific stuff (not that different from what companies did back in the day).

Anyway, there are obviously a lot of factors in homebrew pricing and what you actually get. Today's Atari is selling Atari 2600 cartridges (along with a ROM for the new VCS) - just the cartridges - of three games that cost basically double what just cartridges cost on AtariAge (or any other seller of new Atari 2600 cartridges). And they have super expensive collectors/deluxe versions that don't even have a box option. As a counterpoint, Retro-Bit is selling (pre-orders) a commemorative edition of Gaiares for the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive for just a little more than Atari is selling naked Atari 2600 cartridges, and they include a Translucent Tektite Cartridge, Full-color Instruction Manual, Reversible Cartridge Sleeve, Certificate of Authenticity, Interview Booklet with James Bunker, Embellished Slipcover, and a Commemorative T-Shirt. Of course sales for such a thing are many multiples of what Atari or most others can sell in their respective niches, but it does show how amazingly variable all of this is.

 

With the above in mind, on a personal level, I rarely complain about what a homebrew production costs, regardless of platform. I'm more concerned with is it a product I really want and/or need. But I do understand that not everyone is in the same position and they do want more consistency with pricing.

 

EDIT: I mistakenly said the Atari Limited Edition versions didn't have a box. They do.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Bill Loguidice
Correction

[Machine]

I thought Atari is selling a CIB for $49.   As I click through the pictures, it shows a box and instructions.  I hope those are included as the pictures give the impression they are......

[Bill Loguidice]

31 minutes ago, Machine said:

I thought Atari is selling a CIB for $49.   As I click through the pictures, it shows a box and instructions.  I hope those are included as the pictures give the impression they are......

You're right. It looks like with the updated store page they show a cartridge and box for $49.99. To get a manual (and the other stuff) I guess you need the $149.99 limited edition.

 

EDIT: The $49.99 SKU may include a manual, but either way, the regular edition doesn't list what's included, so we only have the renders to make assumptions.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Bill Loguidice

[+neogeo1982]

No way will I help inflate the price bubble more buying anything from them. If everyone starts buying those from them there's nothing to stop them from expanding to Lynx and Jag. Everyone is better off supporting AA, Songbird, Phoboz, White Lynx, an entire list of people who help hold this community up with new releases every year and need our support to continue releasing for all of us.

[phoenixdownita]

7 hours ago, agradeneu said:

 

I don't quite understand your logic - so you suggest any homebrew is just as bad as Jaguars worst commercial games and not worth the price? But you are only buying homebrews if they are very cheap?

I agree to some extent that an high price does not make a good game. Otherwise a cheap price does not make a game more worthwhile.

 

BTW there are freebies releases, e.g. Reboots collection for GD, Gravitic Mines Demo or Biopede.

 

Cheaper downloadable ROMs for GD would be a nice option, but people still want their physical releases and boxes. They can coexist.

No, I was just saying there's plenty of bad commercial releases across the board and paying full price for them (as people did back in the days) would not make them better all of a sudden, forcing oneself spending time on a bad game is not exactly the definition of fun, you can do it if you have no choice but in 2021 we have the choice.

Yes so far I only bought relatively cheap homebrews, so if I end up not liking it it's no big deal, also I historically never cared for boxes and/or manual (unless the manual had something required to play the game).

I did not mention homebrews above on purpose as I have no beef with homebrews or homebrewers, and it is only my own opinion that I think they are expensive. For people that want the full box + manual + extras if the homebrewer has the time/talent to do those all the better, just asking why that is the only option by far. I personally never looked forward to any of that and would appreciate a cheaper download only version if possible, and if not possible I would like to understand why.

As you stated Cheaper downloadable ROMs for GD would be a nice option
So if the high price is due to box + manual + physical media (say cart) then a DL version + PDF manual should be substantially cheaper, if it's not the case then box + manual + physical cannot be the culprit, I have no idea which is which.
Most of the discussion on the 8bit guy game revolved around him having a bigger audience so cheaper costs on box + manual + physical but no mention that he offers a very cheap DL only option.

[agradeneu]

48 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

No, I was just saying there's plenty of bad commercial releases across the board and paying them full price for them (as people did back in the days) would not make them better all of a sudden, forcing oneself spending time on a bad game is not exactly the definition of fun, you can do it if you have no choice but in 2021 we have the choice.

Yes so far I only bought relatively cheap homebrews, so if I end up not liking it it's no big deal, also I historically never cared for boxes and/or manual (unless the manual had something required to play the game).

I did not mention homebrews above on purpose as I have no beef with homebrew or homebrewer, and it is only my own opinion that I think they are expensive. For people that want the full box + manual + extras if the homebrewer has the time/talent to do those all the better, just asking why is that the only option by far. I personally never looked forward for any of that and would appreciate a cheaper download only version if possible, ad if not possible I would like to understand why.

As you stated Cheaper downloadable ROMs for GD would be a nice option
So if the high price is due to box+manual+physical media (say cart) then a DL version + PDF manual should be substantially cheaper, if it's not the case then box+manual+physical cannot be the culprit, I have no idea which is which. Most of the discussion on the 8bit guy game revolved around him having a bigger audience so cheaper costs on box+manual+physical but no mention on the very cheap DL only option.

He did Kickstarter: 

 

 

http://kck.st/2JtQZhA

 

And right, it's a whole different league. 

For Jaguar, we are talking about 100-200 copies runs mostly. 

 

Regarding high prices for homebrew games, I guess that really depends on your interest and the quality of the game. 

People pay high prices for rather average commercial Jaguar games and "rareties", and IMO, a lot of new homebrew games are more fun than that. The price bubble for some original Jaguar games - say Atari Karts - is quite ridiculous. 

IMO recent games like "Kings of Edom" or Gravitic Mines are much better than your average 90's Jaguar game.

 

Hence it's a bit of poor generalization to say that homebrews HAVE to be cheap because you have some sort of negative bias.

 

 

Since Iam buying homebrews too, I really would like to have cheaper options, especially if you want to import from the US. 

The shipping costs and customs are ridiculous, importing a new Jaguar from the US, the game will cost you like 110-120 dollars.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by agradeneu

[phoenixdownita]

4 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

He did Kickstarter: 

 

 

http://kck.st/2JtQZhA

 

And right, it's a whole different league. 

For Jaguar, we are talking about 100-200 copies runs mostly. 

no KS for Petscii robots, though so .... at any rate the number of copies should have minimal impact on a DL only offering (well aside the developer deciding a price for his work, which is plenty fair btw).

[agradeneu]

11 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

no KS for Petscii robots, though so .... at any rate the number of copies should have minimal impact on a DL only offering (well aside the developer deciding a price for his work, which is plenty fair btw).

Yeah, but the people are backing the games with their money because they like them, and they like to be informed about them. He got over 100.000 from over 2500 backers, which exactly shows you the level of support he got. 

 

On the opppsite side, sorry to be blunt, but your attitude sounds more like you do not care much, and hence you want games to be cheap to minimize your loss of money.

 

I doubt that was/is the motivation of people supporting 8 bit guy - people support him the way like Jaguar fans support homebrew devs, because they genuinely love his games.

 

Hence: we don't owe anything to people who do not care in the first place. Because it does not make much sense.

 

I think that is a fair POV, isn't it?

Edited November 17, 2021 by agradeneu

[Editorb]

I paid 70 for AvP upon release. That would be 130.64 in 2021 dollars. 
 

I paid 70 each for several homebrews. That would be 37.51 in 1994 dollars. I smell bargains.

[phoenixdownita]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

Yeah, but the people are backing the games with their money because they like them, and they like to be informed about them. He got over 100.000 from over 2500 backers, which exactly shows you the level of support he got. 

 

On the opppsite side, sorry to be blunt, but your attitude sounds more like you do not care much, and hence you want games to be cheap to minimize your loss of money.

 

I doubt that was/is the motivation of people supporting 8 bit guy - people support him the way like Jaguar fans support homebrew devs, because they genuinely love his games.

 

Hence: we don't owe anything to people who do not care in the first place. Because it does not make much sense.

 

I think that is a fair POV, isn't it?

I think you are saying that the very reason that I would like homebrews to be cheaper is justification to assert that I obviously do not care enough and hence there's no point in making cheaper version of said homebrews available because it does not make much sense to do so for people that do not care to purchase it full price.

I guess it's a fair POV as any, I would like to apologize to this community for asking if it is possible to release cheaper DL only versions of the homebrews and is so doing potentially making you feel I was belittling somewhat your development efforts, sorry I won't pursue this line of thinking any longer.

[+cubanismo]

3 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

As you stated Cheaper downloadable ROMs for GD would be a nice option

I hate to say it, but the free DRM of shipping only on a cartridge is kind of appealing from a developer POV though. I like the idea of a little SDK that lets you lock a ROM, ideally by modifying an already-built ROM image, to lock it to a single Skunkboard or GD. I wouldn't want to buy something like this myself because I'd be worried about the board breaking down and leaving me without access to something I bought, but it'd be nice to offer consumers the option if they wanted a much lower price point.

[K3V]

I’d just like to say that in 2021 it’s amazing to me that we have a pretty regular release schedule of new games for the Jaguar. Huge shout out to all the developers and publishers who make them happen. I find it incredibly fun to play the new games and hope they keep coming. Cheers!