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Punch-Out for the 7800

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I think the 7800 should be able to do a pretty decent version. The game is more about movable objects, than background details. That's something the 7800 excels at over the NES, even without the XM expansion module. But hey, if the NES used a mapper specifically designed just for this game, then the XM module (or any exclusive cart hardware) is fair game on the 7800. :thumbsup:

 

 

 

Indeed.

 

Take a look at this list here: http://tuxnes.sourceforge.net/nesmapper.txt

 

Anything under the mapper column that does not state "---- (0)" had extra chips in the cartridge. The additional hardware chips extended the capabilities of the NES with features and functions the base system did not provide.

 

Here's an incomplete list of one or more added features made available to an NES game by the additional cartridge hardware:

 

-Incorporate support for saved games.
-Multi-directional scrolling configurations.
-Allow a larger amount of graphics to be used on the screen.
-Add a scanline based IRQ counter to make split screen scrolling easier to perform.
-Extra sound channels (two square waves).
-Extra RAM.
-Support vertical split screen scrolling.
-Improved graphics capabilities (making 16,384 different tiles available per screen rather than only 256, and allowing each individual 8x8-pixel background tile to have its own color assignment instead of being restricted to one color set per 2x2 tile group).
-Allows generation of IRQ signals after a specified number of CPU clock cycles, thus enabling split-screen effects with minimal use of processing power.
-Support bank switching for program code and graphics as well as a CPU cycle–based IRQ counter which can also act as a scanline counter.
-Contain a YM2413 derivative providing 6 channels of FM Synthesis audio.
-Extra sound hardware that plays 4-bit wave samples - supporting 1 to 8 extra sound channels.
-A version of the Yamaha YM2149 sound hardware.

 

That vast majority (Well over 90%) of the entire NES library had additional hardware support. Without those additional hardware chips (Or "NES XM" ;) ), you're left with less than 10% of the NES catalog of games which excludes the 'better' or 'more acclaimed' ones. The game code simply does not run on base NES hardware alone. It requires additional hardware to run fully, if at all.

 

Atari provided not even remotely near the amount of investing of additional hardware in their cartridge titles for the 7800 like Nintendo did for the NES. The unfortunate side effect is sometimes the impression that the 7800 system is so much more inferior. The truth is it was so much less supported and had no where near the amount of resources dedicated to it - hardware and otherwise.

 

Another misconstruction made sometimes is the NES was release in 85/86 for the US, and the Atari 7800 is originally from 84 in the US, so the 7800 is "older/inferior" in that sense as well. Not that dates necessarily matter, but NES is the older hardware from 1983 (Famicom launch).

 

Regardless, seeing the system with the right resources, as linked to earlier, games can and do shine on the 7800 even better than the NES. Commando is an excellent example of that fact. :)

 

BTW, the XM module (A conglomerate of cartridge type hardware) is only adding a small fraction of what NES cartridge hardware provided in both scope and depth. However, it should hopefully help level the playfield somewhat in assisting developers.

 

Not to forget too, all the fantastic new development tools and support from RevEng and (Mega)cart types and more development tools from CPUWIZ. Surely, some true "Super Games" can be developed for the 7800 now. :grin:

 

It's clear you don't really know what you're talking about (at least NES). Sorry to be blunt.

 

The Famicom specifically was made with audio upgrades on the 'cart', in mind. This isn't a 'cheat' or whatever you would like to think. But this is the Famicom, not the NES. The NES has no audio upgrades via the cart because they removed the audio in lines on the cart connector when the localized the Famicom to the NES model. So every chip you mentioned that had 'audio' upgrades, applies to zero NES games.

 

Secondly, the NES is designed very much like an arcade system: video memory is ALWAYS on the cart. It's either RAM or ROM, but either way it's always on the cart. And just like arcade systems, mappers could be used to map out ROM (video or program). It's not an afterthought or cheat; it's part of the design.

 

Third, there are a VERY few exceptions as to where the mappers extended the video capabilites of the NES or Famicom. Punch Out is one of them; the mapper isn't the advantage (mapper chips were standered EVEN before the Famicom) - design around the software application is though. It's specific to this game and is why you didn't really see it for any other game. When a certain tiles is read from vrom, the mapper automatically switches banks. There are two tiles like this (the last two tiles IIRC).

 

The NES/Famicom ALWAYS had the ability to do multidirection scrolling. The NES supports 4 tile maps (each being 256x240 pixels), but there's only enough vram on the NES to support 2 of them. The console was made for the remaining memory to be on CART. It cuts the cost of the console down. If the developer didn't want to pay for the extra tilemap memory, then there were options (again, the cart) to setup 'mirroring' of that tilemap layout. Nothing stops a game from doing multidirectional scrolling, but there will be artifacts on the edge of the screen (attribute artifacts) without the extreme memory. Some devs cared, some didn't (SMB3, a large budget game, doesn't even bother with expanding the tilemap memory on cart and scrolls 8 way just fine).

 

The vast majority of mappers are just that; memory mappers. There's absolutely nothing special about them, in that respect. The NES does lack an internal timer for hsync effects (sprite #0 was used to create boarder windows at the top of the screen), but again - the external interrupt line is on the cart for a reason. It doesn't provide anything to the NES that's outside the scope of the system's design.

 

MMC5 is the only chip (that I know of), that seriously exploits vrom mapping to enchance the graphics - in that they most likely did NOT design the Famicom in such a manner. It allows finer color resolution per tile area (8x8 instead of 16x16) and allows more tiles for both BG and Sprites. Castlevania 3 barely even touches those capabilities. This was a point of contention for nes dev fans (that the MMC5 was wasted potential).

 

Again, the vast majority of games with 'mappers', are just games with memory mappers. Nothing out of the ordinary, and nothing 'expanding' the graphics. Early NES games didn't require mappers, because they were simple and small. But the functionality was always there. And video memory was ALWAYS on the cart. Something the SNES should have done. And something the NeoGeo did do.

 

You know what the biggest differences between 95% of mappers on the NES were? The size of the memory area being mapped out, or the size of external memory addressed. The second would be external interrupt (later gen NES games, for the games that did hsync scroll effects).

 

If you're gonna use the NES mapper thing to validate the XM expansion device, then that's fine. But get your facts right first. :jango:

 

 

 

I like seeing new 7800 homebrew. I like homebrew for any old retro console. But just an observation: the nes dev guys never even think about the 7800, or the XM module, or even competing with it. Most NES dev guys don't see the rivalry between the consoles; it's kind of a one sided rivalry from the 7800 scene. Not like the C64 vs A8. It's weird. If anything, it's NES vs SMS - and even at that NES dev guys just care about making games for the NES (not about out doing other consoles). It's just a completely different atmosphere here, than over at nesdev. There's some level of hate or negativity here, and it's really light hearted over there. So that said, if you really want to have a real rivaly - then create some demos with text seriously dissing the NES and nesdev scene. That's definitely get the response you want - lol :evil:

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Most NES dev guys don't see the rivalry between the consoles; it's kind of a one sided rivalry from the 7800 scene. Not like the C64 vs A8. It's weird. If anything, it's NES vs SMS - and even at that NES dev guys just care about making games for the NES (not about out doing other consoles). It's just a completely different atmosphere here, than over at nesdev. There's some level of hate or negativity here, and it's really light hearted over there.

Which 7800 dev guys have displayed hate, negativity, or rivalry toward the NES??? Or maybe you meant "NESdev guys" instead of "NES dev guys"? If so, then you're comparing a site mostly dedicated to development on a single-platform to a mostly general site with multiple platforms. It's hardly surprising that systems are compared and debated more on the latter than on the former, and has nothing to do with a one sided battle. There are guys here on the NES side of debates all the time.

 

There's more than a touch of irony in you doing a comparison of NES dev guys vs. here, and finding the NES dev guys superior because they wouldn't make comparisons. I would never even think to make a comparison between us and the NES dev guys. I guess I'm light hearted like that, and lack that sort of negativity.

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The vast majority of mappers are just that; memory mappers. There's absolutely nothing special about them, in that respect.

 

The NES had (in part): UNROM [store graphics data on the PRG ROM and copy it to RAM on the cart real time], MMC1 [i.C. that integrates support for saving games and multi-scrolling configurations], MMC2 [Larger amount of graphics on screen], MMC3 - Most popular mapper [scanline based IRQ counter, made split screen easier and the playfield scrolls while status bars remain stationary], MMC5 [Two extra square sound waves, vertical screen scrolling, and the other items mentioned earlier].

 

Which games utilized what mapper, and the size of their respective CHR ROMs and PRG ROMs, is plainly stated here. When reviewing the list, for NES (Not Famicom) titles, under the column "Mapper", if it states "----(0)" (Approximately 10% of all NES (Not Famicom) titles), that is the base console only being utilized with various CHR and PRG ROM/RAM configurations. The other ~90% of NES games (Not Famicom) had some additional support on top of ROM or/and RAM - beyond the base NES console's capabilities - Not necessarily "serious" or extreme, but to a little or great extent.

 

The Famicom specifically was made with audio upgrades on the 'cart', in mind. This isn't a 'cheat' or whatever you would like to think.

 

The 7800 was specifically made to accommodate the same (That's why the POKEY chip works). :-D I 100% agree with you. It is not a cheat and fully support sound chips being added, exactly one of the things the XM provides for the 7800. Respecting the YM2151, the 1984 Atari Arcade game Marble Madness, contains both a POKEY and a YM2151 sound chip, as does Atari's 1985 Indiana Jones, and their 1987 Road Blasters. Atari's Peter Pack Rat and Road Runner, both from 1985, contain the YM2151. Although different from the Arcade division, it is not a stretch to believe the console would have had access and usage of YM2151s.

 

True, only the home country Japan/Famicom version received the vast majority of the sound enhancements - including 'YM FM'. Extremely similar to how the Sega Mark III received the YM2413 FM integration, while the SMS did not. It's not a stretch of the imagination to think the 7800, if supported properly, would have received a possible YM chip or similar upgrade on cart for games in at least its home/origin country. Interestingly, the Atari ST utilized the same YM as the Famicom sound expansion chip, Sunsoft 5B...YM2149F.

 

The NES had an abundance of resources and support from Nintendo, that not even a respectable fraction in comparison was provided to the 7800 by Atari. Comparing the two is not about showing the NES cheating or trying to claim it's an overall inferior console.

 

Rather, in part, it demonstrates how poorly the 7800 was supported, and how the XM provides some of that support the 7800 should have received, in light of what was done for consoles in the same era. The XM being a conglomerate of cart based hardware relative and applicable to the time of the 7800's retail run, and comparable to some cartridge hardware of contemporary consoles, in a central unit.

 

From a cart hardware perspective, the 7800 had it's version of PRG ROM with bank-switching that adds absolutely nothing to the graphic (Not even a 'little' scroll assist), or sound (Not even one extra wave or channel) capabilities of the system; it's true memory mapping only. Additionally, only two games were provided the POKEY chip.

 

That was the main point of the post. Not to split hairs on what region, or/and version of Nintendo's console, received what specific enhancements and to what extent. Some highlights were provided under the umbrella of "NES" which included the Famicom. I'm certainly not going to debate on any obvious overwhelming support for the NES/Famicom, as it would be preaching to the choir. :)

 

Appreciate your love and passion for the NES. I love the NES too. NES Rygar is probably my favorite (Non-Arcade) 8-bit game of all-time. I have ~200 NES carts, a PowerPak, modified A/V top loader and 2 mint toasters.

 

Nonetheless, like to see the 7800 platform, which hasn't been tapped fully and is often highly underrated, showcased in a variety of ways and receiving the love and support it deserves.

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Personally I sucked so bad at the arcade "first person" Punch-Out!! so I always preferred the NES/SNES overhead view style. However, I would love to see this concept brought to completion! Would technically be the first true arcade conversion of Punch-Out""/Super Punch-Out!!.

 

PS: RevEng, member Jinx is probably who he's referring to. He's not an NES fan. I find his annoyance with it funny in a cartoonish way.

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MMC5 upgrades the audio of the NES. ;)

 

??? Care to explain which NES games have MMC5 upgraded audio? Or even better, how it upgrades the NES audio.

 

 

MMC3 (NES most popular chip), in addition to MMC5, provides enhancements to the NES PPU that includes a scanline based IRQ counter utilized mainly to allow the playfield to scroll while status bar information remains steady at the top/botton of the screen.

 

Are you just quoting stuff, or do you actually understand what that actually means???

 

The NES had an abundance of resources and support from Nintendo, that not even a respectable fraction in comparison was provided to the 7800 by Atari. Comparably from a cart hardware perspective, the 7800 had it's version of PRG ROM, and that's about it. Two games were given the POKEY chip.

 

Okay. What does that have to do you missunderstanding and mispresentation of NES mappers?

 

 

The NES had (in part): UNROM [store graphics data on the PRG ROM and copy it to RAM on the cart real time], MMC1 [i.C. that integrates support for saving games and multi-scrolling configurations], MMC2 [Larger amount of graphics on screen], MMC3 [scanline based IRQ counter, made split screen easier and the aforementioned playfield scrolls while status bars remain stationary], MMC5 [Two extra square sound waves, vertical screen scrolling, and the other items mentioned earlier].

 

I think part of the problem, is that you're taking these explanations out of context. EVERY game on the NES upgrades/enchances the PPU regardless if it has a mapper or not. I already told you before, all VROM or VRAM is on the cart. The system was made to hae PPU funcationality extended to the cartridge. Two of the four tilemap memory area need to come from the cart, or the cart has to 'mirror' them (this is done with or without a mapper). The NES can scroll in ALL 8 directions without any mappers, regardless of the mirroring setup or if any memory is applied to the last two tilemaps. MMC1 provides the ability to change the mirroring instead of it simply being soldered/bridged on the cart. This doesn't give the NES multiscrolling, it allows you to set the mirroring to either horizontal or vertical - minimizing the artifacts on the edges of the screen depending on which way you're scrolling the tilemap and what mirror layout you have. It's a cheap option to providing the ram needed for the remaining 2 tilemaps. MMC2 does not allow larger graphics on screen; that's absurd. What it does provide, is an automatic mapping system for VROM instead of having the CPU do it - mid screen (which the CPU could still do). The result is allowing more than 256 tiles to be used on a single screen - but that still has severe limits (which is why it wasn't used outside of Punch Out). MMC1 only supports so much memory (program rom and vrom), so MMC3 is the extension of that; it allows for larger games. It has an external interrupt, which is part of the cart design, but no it doesn't magically give you split screen or status bars. It's done the same way it was always done; the program code changes the X/Y scroll on a specific line (Castlevania, SMB1, Ducktales, etc. Hell SMB1 doesn't even have a 'mapper'). Again, it's just an interval interrupt. Nothing more, nothing less. And nothing beyond the original design scope of the system (which is why is was available to the cart). Split screen is no different; could be done before (without a mapper) and it's some special exploit; the cpu just changes the x/y scroll values mid screen. MMC5 definitely expliots the system outside the original design scope with its graphic enhancing capabilities (the only chip to qualify as this), but only a small handful of games used it *and* most didn't even take advantage of the upgrade graphics (Castlevania 3 doesn't touch that part of the chip; MMC5 is used for accessing large rom size). One game used the vertical split mode (Uchuu Keibitai SDF) and it does so only during the opening cinema/intro.

 

Also, you're looking at mapper capabilities and what Nintendo packaged together as a feature set. The NES specifically had open bus in the address range so that memory or memory mapped ports or whatever external devices, can be access from the cart. Save ram and SRAM are one in the same, and most games use it as both. "Save ram" is SRAM with a battery. But regadless, save ram and/or sram extension is not a mapper thing; it doesn't require a mapper. It requires address decoding logic. It's just easier to consolidate that logic into a single chip. And from Nintendo, features where limited to a range of these chips.

 

Hell, Nintendo was really cheap on these 'mappers', which resulted in limitations (bus conflict mappers needed special duplicate rom values when changing banks, because Nintendo was too cheap to do a proper interface. Later 'mappers' resolved this). Even the interrupt on the MMC3 is cheaply made, instead of a real programmable counter - it just uses the PPU address lines as a makeshift replacement for a counter, which results in design limitation for 8x16 sprites (and limiting which sprites and BG tiles can be in which banks). A proper interrupt on the cart would have been tied to a counter (resettable to be sync'd to vblank). Finer memory mapping requires much more logic, and is why earlier mappers only worked with 8k for vrom and 16k for program rom. It was only until development demanded for finer segment memory mapping, that Nintendo made changes (as well as other companies that made their own mappers). This is the reason why there are sooo many mappers on the system; it's about keeping costs to a minimum.

 

If a game uses MMC3, it by no means it requires everything on that chip. Most "NES" games use MMC1 chip for the Famicom counter part that had a lesser chip, simply because NOA tried to kept mappers to a minimum. I can tell you though, the primary function of a mapper in a Nintendo game is to access larger memory sizes. Secondary would be finer vrom mapping. A distant third would be any other features it offered, which outside a very small list of games - it's usage was minimal and wouldn't be missed if removed. Right off the top of my head, I can say the whole Megaman series fits this bill. These features in the third subset, hardly make or break an NES game (graphic or otherwise).

 

 

Which games utilized what mapper, and the size of their respective CHR ROMs and PRG ROMs, is plainly stated here. When reviewing the list, for NES (Not Famicom) titles, under the column "Mapper", if it states "----(0)" (Approximately 10% of all NES (Not Famicom) titles), that is the base console only being utilized with various CHR and PRG ROM/RAM configurations. The other ~90% of NES games (Not Famicom) had some additional support on top of ROM or/and RAM - beyond the base NES console's capabilities - Not necessarily "serious" or extreme, but to a little or great extent.

 

I have that list. For one, this shows me that you really don't have much of an idea. Again, you speak with authority on the subject, but you actually have no knowledge outside of looking at some list.

 

 

True, only the home country Japan/Famicom version received the vast majority of the sound enhancements - including 'YM FM'. Extremely similar to how the Sega Mark III received the YM2413 FM integration, while the SMS did not. It's not a stretch of the imagination to think the US based 7800, if supported properly, would have received a possible YM chip or similar upgrade on cart for games. Interestingly, the Atari ST utilized the same YM as the Famicom sound expansion chip [YM2149F] via Sunsoft 5B.

 

The XM provides a conglomerate of cartridge based hardware, applicable and relative to the time of the console's retail run and comparable to its NES contemporary, was the point of the post. Not to split hairs on what region received what specific enhancements and to what extent. Some highlights were provided. I'm certainly not going to debate on any obvious overwhelming support for the NES, as it would be preaching to the choir. :)

 

 

It's not just simply a region thing; the NES has hardware differences from the Famicom. The NES (US or Europe) cannot use the audio expansion chips. Period. The audio expansion chips provide the analog audio signals and use the input lines on the Famicom in which it mixes the two audio signals together. The NES simply does not have this feature. There are no NES games that have upgraded audio.

 

The only point of contention IMO, since the XM module's capabilities are supposed to be within the scope of the time/era, is the use of the YM2151 chip. Since NES and SMS are used as a basis for comparison, not even those system had a chip close to that grade/quality/cost. Even the Sega Megadrive/Genesis, which Sega tried to make as close to an arcade machine as possible, used an inferrior/cheaper FM chip (only 6 channels) than the YM2151. Something equivalent to the 2413 would be much more realistic for that era, for the 7800. Or probably more accurately, the YM2203. Simply saying that Atari used it in its arcade systems (hell, everyone did), isn't a qualifier that they would have used it on carts as well (assuming the 7800 reached the level of success of the NES. This module is always put into that context). Home systems weren't arcade equivalents, and used cheaper and inferior parts for a reason (cost). FM chips (only available through Yamaha; they held the patents on it) were expensive in comparison to PSG and other lesser chips. Not only that, but you had to actually get an approved contract with Yamaha at the time (yamaha tightly controlled where these chips would be used in applications, since they had competing products that used their own chips). On that note, the Famicom using the YM2413 in *one* at the end of its life span, isn't a qualifier either. Only the japanese SMS is in this respect.

 

Appreciate your love and passion for the NES. I love the NES too. NES Rygar is probably my favorite (Non-Arcade) 8-bit game of all-time. I have ~200 NES carts, a PowerPak, modified A/V top loader and 2 mint toasters.

 

Lol. I love that qualifier: I don't hate console "X" because here's one game that I really like. So now my criticism is valid.

Dude, I really don't care if you like the NES or hate it, or something in between. All I'm saying, is if you're gonna speak with authority on the subject, then at least have an understanding of what you're talking about. Else, you're talking out your butt - armchair commentator, whatever. Sorry.

 

Nonetheless, like to see the 7800 platform, which hasn't been tapped fully and is often highly underrated, showcased in a variety of ways and receiving the love and support it deserves.

 

No doubt. I think there are way more people that would like to see what the 7800 was truly capable of, than not. Even for people that aren't diehard fans of it; it's exciting seeing a system being pushed to its limits or what it's capable of.

 

 

Which 7800 dev guys have displayed hate, negativity, or rivalry toward the NES??? Or maybe you meant "NESdev guys" instead of "NES dev guys"? If so, then you're comparing a site mostly dedicated to development on a single-platform to a mostly general site with multiple platforms. It's hardly surprising that systems are compared and debated more on the latter than on the former, and has nothing to do with a one sided battle. There are guys here on the NES side of debates all the time.

 

 

GrooveBee is the first person to come to mind. I remember quite a bit of trash talking the NES and nesdev scene. I remember him saying that he was going to learn NES dev *just* to put the NES to shame - no other reason. Not only a waste of time and talent (he's quite talented), but such a childish and igorant mentality to have towards something that's.. well, supposed to be fun. But yeah, the comparisons were always focused towards the NES, and not the SMS (or PC-Engine or any "8bit" console). I don't remember the others, but the 7800 fans specifically surrounding the 7800 homebrew scene contributed to that negativity. I'm not an Atari fan, or Amiga fan, or C64 fan, etc. I don't have a stake or bias in any of this, so I have a distinct view point of the Atariage forum. I see rivalry and contention everywhere here; Atari VS everyone else. I'm just pointing out the contrast to other 'dev' themed forums, specifically NES because that seems to be the 7800's rival, for 7800 fans. Though I'll admit that Sega forums are similar in negativity against the 'rival' (I'm talking dev here), still nothing close to Atari dev scene. I'm no stranger to coding for underdog console systems and all that it entails, but this whole forum was an eye opener for sure.

 

There's more than a touch of irony in you doing a comparison of NES dev guys vs. here, and finding the NES dev guys superior because they wouldn't make comparisons. I would never even think to make a comparison between us and the NES dev guys. I guess I'm light hearted like that, and lack that sort of negativity.

 

Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough, or maybe you just misunderstood me. NESdev scene isn't 'superior', it's just much more light hearted and open minded kind of atmosphere. I'm not talking about NES 'fans' in general (god, no), I'm talking about the dev scene.

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GrooveBee is the first person to come to mind. I remember quite a bit of trash talking the NES and nesdev scene. I remember him saying that he was going to learn NES dev *just* to put the NES to shame - no other reason. Not only a waste of time and talent (he's quite talented), but such a childish and igorant mentality to have towards something that's.. well, supposed to be fun. But yeah, the comparisons were always focused towards the NES, and not the SMS (or PC-Engine or any "8bit" console). I don't remember the others, but the 7800 fans specifically surrounding the 7800 homebrew scene contributed to that negativity.

I'll have to take the GroovyBee history at face value, since he had mostly exited the scene by the time he entered, but I don't recall any devs here smack talking or even referencing the NES in the last few years, beyond factual replies to enquiries from users. I think you're probably decrying something that's already old news.

 

I'm not talking about NES 'fans' in general (god, no), I'm talking about the dev scene.

If you're not talking about NES fans in general, then why do you use 7800 fans in your previous quote to paint the a picture of negativity in the 7800 dev scene? Some fans here make inaccurate claims. They do that for all the systems, including NES. They just don't sign up for an account on some developer site to do that. It's not proof of some one sided battle raging on.

 

For the record, I have no chip on my shoulder or inferiority complex. The system I owned back in the day was the NES, but I find there are interesting things and fun games on pretty much every retro platform. I wish I had the space and time to enjoy them all.

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I like seeing new 7800 homebrew. I like homebrew for any old retro console. But just an observation: the nes dev guys never even think about the 7800, or the XM module, or even competing with it. Most NES dev guys don't see the rivalry between the consoles; it's kind of a one sided rivalry from the 7800 scene. Not like the C64 vs A8. It's weird. If anything, it's NES vs SMS - and even at that NES dev guys just care about making games for the NES (not about out doing other consoles). It's just a completely different atmosphere here, than over at nesdev. There's some level of hate or negativity here, and it's really light hearted over there. So that said, if you really want to have a real rivaly - then create some demos with text seriously dissing the NES and nesdev scene. That's definitely get the response you want - lol :evil:

Conversely, In my travels about the retro dev scene, I don't think I've EVER seen 7800 "fanboys" visiting NES-themed forums like this one, with the sole intention of picking fights and arguing over technical details they half understand, really ever. Whereas, it seems to be pretty consistently appearing on this site, with purported NES "devs" and related followers coming onto an Atari based site to argue in favor of the NES.

 

So maybe the real NES homebrew devs don't recognize the 7800 rivalry, or care about it one iota. But there doesn't seem to be a shortage of "NES Rulz LOL" types coming to AA to remind everyone that the 7800 was the red headed bastard stepchild of the late 80's post Crash 8 bit Console era.

 

People posting on an Atari based site claiming they prefer the 7800 over the NES kind of makes sense. I just find it fairly rude when someone who dislikes a product or brand seeks out that brand's fans just to antagonize them.

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Conversely, In my travels about the retro dev scene, I don't think I've EVER seen 7800 "fanboys" visiting NES-themed forums like this one, with the sole intention of picking fights and arguing over technical details they half understand, really ever. Whereas, it seems to be pretty consistently appearing on this site, with purported NES "devs" and related followers coming onto an Atari based site to argue in favor of the NES.

 

So maybe the real NES homebrew devs don't recognize the 7800 rivalry, or care about it one iota. But there doesn't seem to be a shortage of "NES Rulz LOL" types coming to AA to remind everyone that the 7800 was the red headed bastard stepchild of the late 80's post Crash 8 bit Console era.

 

People posting on an Atari based site claiming they prefer the 7800 over the NES kind of makes sense. I just find it fairly rude when someone who dislikes a product or brand seeks out that brand's fans just to antagonize them.

 

The software that was released on NES was head and shoulders better in multiple facets than the released software on the 7800. That's a fairly well accepted statement. There was far more of it on NES, in greater variety, and over a longer stretch of time. It was a dominant system. The 7800 was a barebones effort, a highly incomplete effort. It suffered from lack of resources, lack of quality 3rd party support, etc.

 

So often you will have NES fans criticize 7800 and SMS for that matter, as though the hardware is inferior, when in fact it is not. The software on those systems were greatly inferior to the NES. Those critics are short sighted, and unfair to 7800 and SMS. That being said, the NES WAS a better system overall due to the overwhelming software library advantage. Sure there were plenty of trash, too, but many times more highly rated game experience.

 

On the reverse, some 7800 backers will scoff at the hardware of the NES console itself. Maybe it is slightly inferior to the 7800 and SMS? That's really irrelevant given the history of the era though. Clearly Nintendo did FAR more with less (console-wise) than Atari or Sega. Do some 7800 admirers have an "inferiority complex" from that? I guess some do. I don't really see the point of the arguing. History is clear, Nintendo had the better game experience, and therefore the better "system." That really shouldn't affect efforts on the 7800 homebrew front. If anything, there's FAR more that can be done that is new and surprising on the 7800. Good luck producing ANYTHING now on NES that would really surprise people.

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GrooveBee is the first person to come to mind. I remember quite a bit of trash talking the NES and nesdev scene. I remember him saying that he was going to learn NES dev *just* to put the NES to shame - no other reason. Not only a waste of time and talent (he's quite talented), but such a childish and igorant mentality to have towards something that's.. well, supposed to be fun. But yeah, the comparisons were always focused towards the NES, and not the SMS (or PC-Engine or any "8bit" console). I don't remember the others, but the 7800 fans specifically surrounding the 7800 homebrew scene contributed to that negativity. I'm not an Atari fan, or Amiga fan, or C64 fan, etc. I don't have a stake or bias in any of this, so I have a distinct view point of the Atariage forum. I see rivalry and contention everywhere here; Atari VS everyone else. I'm just pointing out the contrast to other 'dev' themed forums, specifically NES because that seems to be the 7800's rival, for 7800 fans. Though I'll admit that Sega forums are similar in negativity against the 'rival' (I'm talking dev here), still nothing close to Atari dev scene. I'm no stranger to coding for underdog console systems and all that it entails, but this whole forum was an eye opener for sure.

You are not that current on the Atari 7800 homebrew scene. Grooveybee hasn't posted on the Atari 7800 forum since April of 2013. Even before then, he was developing for the Intellivison. The only Atari 7800 thing Grooveybee is involved with is the Atari 7800 XM hardware at this point. Otherwise Grooveybee has been involved with the Intellivision scene only to my knowledge.

 

There are no current Atari 7800 programmers that even bashed the NES. I've seen fanboys of other systems go to the Atari 7800 forum just to bash the 7800.

Edited by 8th lutz

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The software that was released on NES was head and shoulders better in multiple facets than the released software on the 7800. That's a fairly well accepted statement. There was far more of it on NES, in greater variety, and over a longer stretch of time. It was a dominant system. The 7800 was a barebones effort, a highly incomplete effort. It suffered from lack of resources, lack of quality 3rd party support, etc.

 

So often you will have NES fans criticize 7800 and SMS for that matter, as though the hardware is inferior, when in fact it is not. The software on those systems were greatly inferior to the NES. Those critics are short sighted, and unfair to 7800 and SMS. That being said, the NES WAS a better system overall due to the overwhelming software library advantage. Sure there were plenty of trash, too, but many times more highly rated game experience.

 

On the reverse, some 7800 backers will scoff at the hardware of the NES console itself. Maybe it is slightly inferior to the 7800 and SMS? That's really irrelevant given the history of the era though. Clearly Nintendo did FAR more with less (console-wise) than Atari or Sega. Do some 7800 admirers have an "inferiority complex" from that? I guess some do. I don't really see the point of the arguing. History is clear, Nintendo had the better game experience, and therefore the better "system." That really shouldn't affect efforts on the 7800 homebrew front. If anything, there's FAR more that can be done that is new and surprising on the 7800. Good luck producing ANYTHING now on NES that would really surprise people.

Pump the brakes on that "better gaming experience". NES had a larger software library. No one disputes this. However, more doesn't always equal "better", and better is a measure of opinion, not fact. If you do side by side comparisons of same titles released on both NES and 7800, going on graphics, sound, and details like flickering (or lack thereof) or hardware/cartridge durability, you can make lots of arguments for or against either system. But the 7800 is at least equal, if not slightly better overall on most of those categories when comparing same to same.

 

Sure you could make the argument that the NES had more "good" titles than the 7800 had titles in total, and that would probably be true. But you can also show that the NES had thousands of titles that are worse than the worst 7800 titles, so again, it's not really an equal comparison.

 

but the 7800 Homebrew scene as you said, is the clear advantage in 2015. The NES is almost comletely a retro/nostalgia experience, where the 7800 is alive and well and still being developed for.

 

I do find it quite comical that the most popular NES based forum is "Nintendoage", basically a direct rip-off of the name Atariage, and it's like they didn't even realize that the "Atariage" name comes from Atari's own magazine of the same name back in 1982 and 83.

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Sure you could make the argument that the NES had more "good" titles than the 7800 had titles in total, and that would probably be true.

I may be misinterpreting--Greg2600, please let me know--but I think this is his point. Nintendo flooded the zone with contractually-committed developers producing some pretty good-quality games for their system--and they produced some pretty fair games themselves--and it smothered the 7800 for the most part.

 

You're both right, though, about the 7800 as a modern homebrew environment. Both in software and in hardware, whether you're talking about the XM or CPUWiz's VersaBoard or whatever else, the 7800 has for the longest time sat fallow and is now seen as a virgin frontier for some really talented people. Even if only a few are able to appreciate it, it's nice that the system is being treated as a serious system that can be developed and exploited now. I'm glad the old thing got a second chance.

 

(And see? All that without being bitter about Nintendo. Heck, I even gave a NES and a stack of games to my brother- and sister-in-law for Christmas. It's a nice system. I just didn't want it fouling up my Ataris' air. :lol: )

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So what does all this have to do with the fn awesome tech demo we have here called PUNCH OUT?!?!!

 

 

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Pump the brakes on that "better gaming experience". NES had a larger software library. No one disputes this. However, more doesn't always equal "better", and better is a measure of opinion, not fact. If you do side by side comparisons of same titles released on both NES and 7800, going on graphics, sound, and details like flickering (or lack thereof) or hardware/cartridge durability, you can make lots of arguments for or against either system. But the 7800 is at least equal, if not slightly better overall on most of those categories when comparing same to same.

 

Sure you could make the argument that the NES had more "good" titles than the 7800 had titles in total, and that would probably be true. But you can also show that the NES had thousands of titles that are worse than the worst 7800 titles, so again, it's not really an equal comparison.

 

but the 7800 Homebrew scene as you said, is the clear advantage in 2015. The NES is almost comletely a retro/nostalgia experience, where the 7800 is alive and well and still being developed for.

 

I do find it quite comical that the most popular NES based forum is "Nintendoage", basically a direct rip-off of the name Atariage, and it's like they didn't even realize that the "Atariage" name comes from Atari's own magazine of the same name back in 1982 and 83.

 

Like I said, NES had boatloads of garbage. I bought several choice turds back then :(. However, there's probably 15-20 7800 carts I actually play at all, half what I own. For NES, I have 70-something carts, and I could easily play and enjoy nearly all of them. There's a strong NES homebrew effort, some of it acclaimed, but again my point is that none of it is really eye-opening. Although the Sydney Hunter game looks very nice, and NES has had several great flash carts produced. 7800 just the CC2 which you can't get, as of now. The 7800 has untapped potential in homebrew.

 

I may be misinterpreting--Greg2600, please let me know--but I think this is his point. Nintendo flooded the zone with contractually-committed developers producing some pretty good-quality games for their system--and they produced some pretty fair games themselves--and it smothered the 7800 for the most part.

 

You're both right, though, about the 7800 as a modern homebrew environment. Both in software and in hardware, whether you're talking about the XM or CPUWiz's VersaBoard or whatever else, the 7800 has for the longest time sat fallow and is now seen as a virgin frontier for some really talented people. Even if only a few are able to appreciate it, it's nice that the system is being treated as a serious system that can be developed and exploited now. I'm glad the old thing got a second chance.

 

(And see? All that without being bitter about Nintendo. Heck, I even gave a NES and a stack of games to my brother- and sister-in-law for Christmas. It's a nice system. I just didn't want it fouling up my Ataris' air. :lol: )

 

However it happened, strong arming, monopolistic tactics, better 1st party developers, the NES got the bulk of the most popular arcade conversions, licensed properties, and Japanese publisher/developers. The 7800 had ports of great arcade games, but they were nearly all available previously on Atari systems or even on NES through Tengen or others. NES also sold from 1985-1994, about 10 years. 7800 really only sold new games for around 3.

 

So what does all this have to do with the fn awesome tech demo we have here called PUNCH OUT?!?!!

 

They need to post an updated demo to refocus!

Edited by Greg2600
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But even without mappers, 7800 Commando, Ikari Warriors, and Ballblazer are all better than their NES counterparts. I'd even venture to speculate that if 7800 Elevator Action is found, it's probably better than the later NES version; same with 7800 Paperboy since the programmer worked alongside the programmer responsible for the SMS version.

 

I saw comments above mentioning how "Atari" implemented the YM2151 in their arcade games. After July 1984, Atari Coin - Atari's arcade division, the original Atari so to speak - became Atari Games Inc/Corp. They were separate of the Atari Consumer which was liquidated and sold to Jack Tramiel who rolled the remnants into what became his Atari Corp. Atari Games created the Tengen sub-brand for their consumer ports and products.

 

Curt chose to embrace the YM2151 into the XM because Atari Games used it and had the original Atari Inc remained whole, they probably would've used it in add-ons to the 7800 or other eventual consoles [such as the Amiga Lorraine based Mickey console].

 

What I'd like to see is a home brewer use Tengen's "Rambo" NES mapper [either one taken from a donor cart or emulated via FPGA, ARM, or PIC] in a 7800 cartridge. It's doable since the 7800 was designed to even use other CPUs in their carts, and it "keeps it in the family" due to Tengen. I'm actually surprised Atari Corp didn't use the Rambo once they patched up their beef with Atari Games near the end of the 7800's life. Then again, I'm still surprised both Atari Corp and Activision didn't use David Crane's DPC chip in their later 1986+ new releases for the 2600. What were they thinking???

 

Heck, had Atari Inc survived in-tact, it's possible the Amiga Lorraine could've ended up an XM-style upgrade accessory for the 7800 given it would've debuted 1 year after the 7800's original release. That's also not taking into account the use of the AMY chip [that Atari Corp consequently was unable to finish on their own and was also never implemented in the A8 or ST computer lines] or…dare I say?…Dual or Quad POKEY configurations.

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Dammit. I only wanted to address Trebor's misinformation, not completely derail this thread or talk about what's already been apparently discussed a thousand times over. I appologize. I probably should have left out my trailing comment about the homebrew scene, etc. But about Nintendoage; I stay far away from that place as possible. I might like a lot of NES game from my childhood (among systems that came before and after), but I don't normally jive with Nintendo "fans" in general. They always treat Nintendo as the end all / be all, and everything else is a far distant 2nd or 3rd. It's a mentally tiresome to deal with.

 

 

Lynxpro: I was looking over that mapper, and I'm not sure the PPU aspect of it will help out the 7800. Or would the 7800 benefit from fine memory slice mapping (1kbyte) in parts of rom/ram? I like the idea of reuse because of the tie back to Atari, but it seems like a lot of work just that sake. You could probably make a 'cleaner' version of the mapper via fpga.

 

I'm not sure how everything aligns up between the two consoles (7800 and NES), but has anyone looked at hacking an NES rom to run on the 7800? I know the graphics architecture is different enough that simply patching the port read/writes wouldn't work, but that doesn't mean you could patch the functions themselves with your own hooks to your own display routines. Alot of work, sure, but something really cool none the less. With this in mind, I was thinking specifically Punch Out. But other smaller/easier games as well (maybe SMB 1, since there's already a hacked NES rom running on the TG16 and Sega Megadrive).

Edited by malducci
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Dammit. I only wanted to address Trebor's misinformation

Wow...Let's try this one more time...

 

Yes, the base NES console can and does handle scrolling. When you look at the original 30 black box titles, you have for example, SMB1 and Urban Champion - Mapper 0 games. There is nothing being added to the base console outside of ROM for the game and both contain a form of scrolling.

 

Nonetheless, many later and highly praised games such as SMB 2/3, Mega Man 3/4/5/6, did not utilize Mapper 0, but MMC3, which assisted the base console. Could it do something like scrolling without it? Sure, as evident and stated above. However, would the games that utilize MMC3 be as good, or perhaps would need to cut back, for example, some of the action on the screen without it? Probably.

 

MMC3 adds an IRQ that provides a handy way to do things like scrolling part of the screen or other mid-screen changes. By doing so, it frees up the CPU to do other things.

 

The 7800 never had anything like that provided (unfortunately). The scrolling in Scrapyard Dog, Alien Brigade, Ninja Golf, Midnight Mutants, and the Parallax scrolling you see in the bonus level of Tower Toppler, and Bentley Bear's Crystal Quest is just SALLY (CPU), and MARIA (GPU). If the 7800 did have something similar, for example, assisting with scrolling and freeing up cycles, made available to it via cart-add on, like the NES, the aforementioned games could have possibly been even better.

 

Not stating the NES can't pull off what it does without the cart help, just that many of the most popular and highly praised titles do have assistance. In this example, it is with the IRQ provided from MMC3 that frees up the CPU, yet still makes the needed changes to the PPU.

 

Yes, the added sound chips were just to the Japan home/country version of Nintendo's console, despite the umbrella "NES" term being used. Several different 'YM' sound chips (Or the enhancement/additions via MMC5) were added via cart, even if it they were only utilized in a very small number of games. Regardless, it was done and made available to a contemporary console during the 7800's original retail run.

 

Splitting hairs disputing what region, or/and to what extent, what additions were provided to the NES/Famicom was not the focus. Nevertheless, I am dropping this topic at this point, as we are just going in circles here.

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So, how about this thread gets split so the majorly off-topic NES vs 7800 crap can go into one of the thousand other threads about the subject and this one

can be cleaned up to get back to punch out finding a home on the 7800?

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So, how about this thread gets split so the majorly off-topic NES vs 7800 crap can go into one of the thousand other threads about the subject and this one

can be cleaned up to get back to punch out finding a home on the 7800?

Thank you....well said

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So, how about this thread gets split so the majorly off-topic NES vs 7800 crap can go into one of the thousand other threads about the subject and this one

can be cleaned up to get back to punch out finding a home on the 7800?

The Comparisons showing up in this thread were kind of inevitable though, given that Punch-Out was one of the top 5 selling and popularity NES games of all time.

 

I still prefer the green wire frame model of the arcade over the dwarf boxing version on the NES, as well.

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I'm not sure how everything aligns up between the two consoles (7800 and NES), but has anyone looked at hacking an NES rom to run on the 7800? I know the graphics architecture is different enough that simply patching the port read/writes wouldn't work, but that doesn't mean you could patch the functions themselves with your own hooks to your own display routines. Alot of work, sure, but something really cool none the less. With this in mind, I was thinking specifically Punch Out. But other smaller/easier games as well (maybe SMB 1, since there's already a hacked NES rom running on the TG16 and Sega Megadrive).

 

Would be nice if it were easy but I doubt it. This guy has converted many NES to TG-16, and that's with the extra HP the PCE/TG has.

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Thank you....well said

 

Well you know it's pretty fucked up when *I* say it's gone off the rails.

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Wow...Let's try this one more time...

 

Yes, the base NES console can and does handle scrolling. When you look at the original 30 black box titles, you have for example, SMB1 and Urban Champion - Mapper 0 games. There is nothing being added to the base console outside of ROM for the game and both contain a form of scrolling.

 

Nonetheless, many later and highly praised games such as SMB 2/3, Mega Man 3/4/5/6, did not utilize Mapper 0, but MMC3, which assisted the base console. Could it do something like scrolling without it? Sure, as evident and stated above. However, would the games that utilize MMC3 be as good, or perhaps would need to cut back, for example, some of the action on the screen without it? Probably.

 

Would they need to cut back on the action on screen? No, actually - they wouldn't. The primary and most important function of that mapper is memory. If you remove that mapper, you loose the ability to access large amounts of memory. SMB3 uses single tilemap mirroring, it simply zeros out X/Y regs and switches which tilemap to read from (you don't need a mapper for this). Could the status bar still be at the bottom? Sure. Is it more convient with an interrupt? Sure. Are any of those games mentioned possible without the interrupt? Most definitely. Hell, all but two Megaman games use char-ram. Ever looked at Battletoads?

That's one of the simplest mappers and the game uses chr-ram (not vrom mapped memory). No external interrupts. I'd argue they could be just as good, because I understand what's happening under the hood. Because none of those games use the external interrupt for excessive h-sync scrolls. Those games would be the exception, but I would just say "see below". Because it's like saying, if a game didn't have chr-ram or chr-rom then it wouldn't look the same. Actually, you wouldn't see anything at all. The same can be applied for external ram (a minimal of 2k work ram is on the system, and there's open bus in the address range for a reason: more memory via cart).

 

 

Not stating the NES can't pull off what it does without the cart help, just that many of the most popular and highly praised titles do have assistance. In this example, it is with the IRQ provided from MMC3 that frees up the CPU, yet still makes the needed changes to the PPU.

 

That's true. And I'll take it one step further and say any h-sync scroll divides are impossible on a practical level without it. I.e. Ninja Gaiden 3 for example. But in reality, it's actually no different than they idea that the PPU isn't complete and actually requires functionality from the cart even to operate. That was my point. It's part of the design scope of the system, it's part of the ppu functionality, and its delivery mechanism *is* the cart and all the options it entails. The only real mapper outside the scope of this, is MMC5. The idea you were proposing, is that it's common place for NES to have 'upgrades', and the library by examples proves the rule and validation for the XM module. I personally think MMC5 is the exception to the rule, not the rule. And that these aren't upgrades so much, as they are development options within the scope of the original design. There's this point of view that the NES needed these "upgrades" because the 'base' system couldn't handle it, when the reality is that these are development extensions of the original system. This is the way the system was design; it's both extremely flexible and quite unique IMO. The SNES followed a similar development path, but not nearly as flexible as the NES' design.

 

So that's the problem; people are defining the NES architecture by the design and measurements of other systems. When in fact, the NES is a fairly unique design. If you consider that an unfair advange on behalf of the NES, then that's fine. But that was always part of the system's design. There's a difference between being part of a system's functionality, and an unforseen exploit of a system's functionality, and something that goes above and beyond the scope of a system's functionality. 99% of mappers fall into the first category, with MMC5 falling into the second category. Nothing so far that I know of that fits the third. I mean, we're not talking about the 32x here ;>_>

 

That said, was the 7800 designed with XM type capabilities in mind? Or does that fall under the second category? (I would say the 2151 falls closer to the third category, but I'm sure that's horse is long dead by now)

 

 

Would be nice if it were easy but I doubt it. This guy has converted many NES to TG-16, and that's with the extra HP the PCE/TG has.

 

That would be me (see my sig). Which is I brought it up. Yeah, I wrote emulation code for the PPU and APU in realtime thanks to the extra processing spead, but it can be done the other was as well: replace the apu and ppu drawing routines with custom ones. More work, for sure, but still doable. Well, that, and I'm partial to the NES one over the arcade game :D

Edited by malducci

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