Last Ninja on A8 Anyone to code?

[José Pereira]

Hi me again with LN...

I found a way to build the screens same way as on C64 and C16 but need someone to get all/each of the gfxs (trees, plants, rocks,...). Just need them to put them in the A8 needed bit-pairs. Then the screen is build exactly like they do (except it's in ANTIC4 multiple charsets 'mimic bitmap mode').

The screens exactly like them one object over the other untill all the screen is full. At this monent our playing area is in 5colours then next just add the needed PMGs underlays to add more colours into certain gfxs.

For example in level1 we have mainly 3grays, black and greens so these are BAK,PF0->PF3, others gfxs will use the underlays.

 

Ninja and Enemys ara just and only soft sprites. Any in-front of them gfx have P0, P1 is on the sides panel for the objects using/holding/picking

P2/P3 gives us the green/brown trees,...

 

Anyone up to the task?

[miker]

Better check if this thread is still live: http://atarionline.pl/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2375&page=1

[Rybags]

Probably been mentioned, but you don't just store the screens as bitmaps.

 

They're obviously procedurally generated. Doing a port would either mean reverse-engineering that from the C64 version or starting fresh which would mean it'd probably end up looking different.

 

A G2F mockup is all well and good, but next to no use other than proof-of-concept.

[José Pereira]

Probably been mentioned, but you don't just store the screens as bitmaps.

 

They're obviously procedurally generated. Doing a port would either mean reverse-engineering that from the C64 version or starting fresh which would mean it'd probably end up looking different.

 

A G2F mockup is all well and good, but next to no use other than proof-of-concept.

I know from the begining how they generate the screens on C64, it can be done the same on A8 but you'll end with a 5colours one. It can be done similar but after the screen you'll have to add the PMGs as underlays.

It's all a question of having all the gfxs and their bit-pairs then the engine does the job: each gfx placed over the other (like a soft sprite bitmap masking) untill all the screen it's done.

If you have all the gfxs then the PMGs underlays data only use just a little bit of memory. For example: you'll have data for tree1, tree2, flower1, flower2, portal left side, portal right side,... that you call the ones you want/need on each screen.

 

 

P.s.- G2F it's just the screen all done and the only way for me to show. The idea is in my head but for that I always needed a coder that we can talk and share ideas ...

[Rybags]

Realistically the easiest way to do the game would probably be to reverse-engineer it, then adapt and rewrite the parts that need it.

Then it'd be a 128K game almost surely. And probably hundreds of hours of work.

[José Pereira]

Realistically the easiest way to do the game would probably be to reverse-engineer it, then adapt and rewrite the parts that need it.

Then it'd be a 128K game almost surely. And probably hundreds of hours of work.

I am sure that's it and hundreds hours of work but maybee it can fit in 64KBs...

If they are using bitmap mode and screen display takes around 8KBs then ours in mulpiple charsets would probably need more: [2charlines = 1charset and remaining chars for the guys soft sprites] we'll need probably 12charsets = 12KBs for the screen display

Soft sprite guys is the same, I think as on C=16 and there it fits in 64KBs.

Probably what will end up eating more memory its all the data of the PMGs, call them and put their underlays on each screen for the correspondant object gfx...

[McKong]

Probably my favourite game on the C64, would be cool to see it on the A8

[snicklin]

but maybee it can fit in 64KBs...

 

Maybe. Perhaps with the use of xBios, a lot of it could be stored on disk and loaded in as required?

 

There will still be a fair amount of memory used, but this will reduce it somewhat.

Edited April 30, 2014 by snicklin

[Rybags]

If the game got finished on C= Plus4 and source could be gotten then a conversion could be done.

 

But... Atari can only use 62K RAM, Plus4 can use practically all 64K. Plus4 has the attribute per character cell/2 attributes per bitmap cell which otherwise needs PMG overlay and/or DLI colour changes.

[José Pereira]

If the game got finished on C= Plus4 and source could be gotten then a conversion could be done.

 

But... Atari can only use 62K RAM, Plus4 can use practically all 64K. Plus4 has the attribute per character cell/2 attributes per bitmap cell which otherwise needs PMG overlay and/or DLI colour changes.

lazy A8 coders that need others code... If A8 coders did it already does it C=16 Plus4 ask for?

But yes your talk just say I am right and I was right from the very first time...

 

P.s.- including the PMGs to give more colour but not overlays its underlays and DLIs? perhaps DLIs you only need them to change colours on the bottom status area

[miker]

They are not lazy, the have something like real life[tm]. Do you?

[MrFish]

lazy A8 coders that need others code... If A8 coders did it already does it C=16 Plus4 ask for?

 

Rybags is one of the most knowledgeable, helpful, and contributing persons frequenting these forums, and has been so for a great number of years. These are well known and easily supportable facts.

 

I would say, by deduction of the line of conversation, that he simply doesn't want to invest his personal time coding this project. His suggestion was most likely a nice way of saying that.

 

In spite of that, he seems willing to at least banter around on the subject. I'd say that's about as much as one should expect, given the situation.

Edited May 1, 2014 by MrFish

[danwinslow]

I suggest you learn to code...seriously, its really the best way to get things done and I think with the effort you have put into graphics conversions learning to code would be easier than you think. Spend a year getting up to speed on assembler, there's lots of help here, and you'll be set to do your own conversions. Hey, if *I* can learn to code assembler, anybody can, lol.

[Mclaneinc]

Coding is only half the issue, its having the knowledge of the OS to make as much of it as possible, that's down to years of experience of building sprite routines, memory use, all the little tricks that can be used and a methodical mind.

 

I can code a little in 6502, done the odd little util but ask me to do a game and I'll just laugh and know my limitations, I would not know where to start.

 

Having an idea for a game is one thing, building it is the real task.

 

Lest we forget the time involved, time away from real life and real concerns..

 

As Clint Eastwood says in one of the Dirty Harry films, "A man's got-sta know his limitations"..

Edited May 1, 2014 by Mclaneinc

[flashjazzcat]

There are lots of things the A8 should have, but hasn't, and lots of things which should have been written for it long ago, but still haven't. That's just the way it is, because - as said above - anything that gets done on these machines now is purely down to whatever spare time and effort people are prepared to expend. With little or no financial incentive, the only real motivation for developers is the desire to realize something they want to see on the machine. One day, a talented programmer will have a burning desire to implement Last Ninja, and then it will happen, because the two magic ingredients are in place at the same time: the desire and the means. Until that time, I'm afraid it's a case of "if you want something done, do it yourself".

[Irgendwer]

I suggest you learn to code...

 

Entering this loop AGAIN :

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/147977-ikari-warriors-a-possible-new-game-on-the-way/?do=findComment&comment=1803267

[José Pereira]

Interesting... that i did it again and any of you understand anything of what i was trying to say, but that is life!...

Edited May 1, 2014 by José Pereira

[popmilo]

One day, a talented programmer will have a burning desire to implement Last Ninja, and then it will happen, because the two magic ingredients are in place at the same time: the desire and the means.

Desire exists... Problem is in the means...

 

Jose don't get me wrong, your ideas are valid. But thinking about how to code it all, gives me headaches

 

Let's say we get graphics to 90% of what C64 did. We are still working with not so good looking sprites (and there is nothing anyone can do about it).

Music will be completely different... (may I say - not so good).

 

Imho - why would anyone produce inferior copy of original game ?

Last Ninja on C64 used strong sides of graphics and sound in extremely good way. Gameplay itself was pretty simple.

 

We could code simple 4color or hires Last Ninja game in less than a year...

It's just not that attractive compared to NRVs ProjectM, Space Harrier, Yoomp and countless still unwritten 3d and gtia based games...

 

I spent years trying to figure out how to copy certain features of C64 games onto Atari, just to realize that coders should instead focus on A8s strong sides (pretty smart, right ? ).

 

Lets make a new Ninja game in 3D and use large, colorful gtia chunky pixels!

[snicklin]

I've never understood quite why people want to convert games to the Atari 8 bit from other formats. Although it is nice to say, "The Atari has this or that", the reality is that it is difficult to convert anything to the A8. The reason, the A8 has it's own limitations and games on other systems will be using the strengths of their own systems.

 

Why not write something which is inspired by a game on another system. It may look rather different, but underneath it is a similar game.

 

I mean, write something to the Atari's strengths which is similar to another game, but do not name the other game, just keep it in mind.

 

This way you also avoid any copyright issues.

 

[ Popmilo added his post in seconds before me and said pretty much the same ]

Edited May 1, 2014 by snicklin

[flashjazzcat]

Lets make a new Ninja game in 3D and use large, colorful gtia chunky pixels!

last_ninja_2_C64-03.gif

 

That mock-up is immediately more intriguing than trying to do a direct port. I like it.

[popmilo]

That mock-up is immediately more intriguing than trying to do a direct port. I like it.

Well it's probably not possible just as that image is done (160x96 pixels cut out from C64 screenshot, converted to A8 palette).

That image is 11 colors so not far away from GTIA 9 color mode...

 

4 PMs combined with wide pixels should be enough for two big sprites. (wide pixels should be good for weapons and such...

 

And then... Imagine it with scrolling background ???

[kiwilove]

I did play Last Ninja on C64 - while the graphics were very nice - I don't think the gameplay was all that interesting or fun...

Last Ninja did use the C64 hardware to it's advantage.

My own personal view is that, like Space Harrier --- I don't think the end result will justify the time spent on it.

 

But if someone does an exceptional job with it - that may prove all us doubters - wrong.

And perhaps even improve upon the gameplay aspect?

 

This goes for any project --- It is whatever enjoyment you get out of working on the project - that will be it's reward. That if you can really push the hardware (and your ability) to it's limits (and beyond?) you gain satisfaction from that - in producing something new and different.

 

There is of course - no monetary reward to be gained from this old hardware system/platform - and you would be better off developing for the current sysems/platforms popular now - if that is your wish and desire. [This comment really for this topic - but lazy to post it somewhere else...]

 

What you are interested in doing - is usually the driving/vital force that is present - without which success is not possible.

[+CharlieChaplin]

Well,

 

at atarionline.pl there is a topic about "The Last Ninja 2" which will be coded (ported/converted) by Jakub Husak it seems.

Here is a small demo from the BBC micro:

http://atarionline.pl/forum/?PostBackAction=Download&AttachmentID=6878

 

Press Space bar to start the game, up/down/left/right to move.

And here is the original topic at atatarionline.pl (use Google or Bing to translate):

http://atarionline.pl/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2375&page=1&PHPSESSID=ad81c47ceaf7ad923d3ecb3025094ae5

Edited January 20, 2015 by CharlieChaplin

[Creature XL]

There is of course - no monetary reward to be gained from this old hardware system/platform - and you would be better off developing for the current sysems/platforms popular now - if that is your wish and desire. [This comment really for this topic - but lazy to post it somewhere else...]

 

I 2nd the laziness

But you stated the ugly truth. Imagine people would be so fanatic to pay, say, 30 EUR for a digital download.

As I have no idea how many games can be sold in this day and age (if any one has numbers please state them here or in another thread).

Assuming 100 copies get sold, this will lead to 3000 EUR. So even this is way to low to even consider this a day job.

 

So either a coder wants to dev LN (as said above) OR a rich dude wants LN on the A8. Guess if someone pays a team 50k EUR or more we will get a nice version of LN. Further assuming it pays 3 people for a year full-time (so one has to circumvent tax .

[peteym5]

Bitmap screens (graphics 15) will be 8K per screen, you will need a 576K computer, load in screens from disk, or a large bank switching cartridge. To just make a handful of screens.

 

Character/Tile Map Screens (Graphics 12/Antic 4) is 1k per screen if you can generate everything with a 4 color font. Get about 8 times the number of screens. More if you use a compression routine like INFLATE.

 

Procedure generation with lets say making vertical/horizontal strips of characters/tiles, or rectangle blocks, images, etc, Can pack it down to under 256 bytes per screen. I am working on an Adventure type game with procedure generated screens that pack 256 screens into a 16K of memory. Remaining memory is used for sprites, sound, and programming.

 

It really depends on how many screens this "Last Ninja" has. From a Google search, probably can be done with Antic 4 for 5 colors. Since they are steady screen graphics, can consider SuperIRG or DLIs to get more screen colors. I would not suggest GTIA or APAC modes because they look too blocky.

 

Looks like only 2 sprites on screen at once, can make 2 player + 2 missile + overlay for 3rd color (OR) mode.

Edited January 20, 2015 by peteofborg