Why C64 and not Atari XL/XE?

[Marius]

I really wouldn't know I won an atari 800xl when I was 8 years old. I am used to tell everybody that I never win something at lotteries, but now I realize I already won the prize of my life, when I was 8… the 800xl One of my closest friends, that never let me down

[TMR]

Don't get me wrong, when I said "cheap and everywhere", I only meant that it was part of the C=64's success, not solely responsible for it.

Others are using similar terms in a derogatory way, it might be best to avoid being lumped in with that in case the moderators decide to make good on their threats at the end of the last big A8 vs C64 thread a few years back. [smiles sweetly and innocently at Al if he's reading =-]

 

When I was a kid, growing up in Santa Cruz, CA, USA (just over the hill from the Silicon Valley), there were only a few places you could buy Atari computers; K-Mart, I seem to think Long's Drugs had the 400, the Kay-Bee Toys in the Capitola Mall and Teddy Bear Toys in Aptos. I'm sure there were other places, but those were the only ones I knew of.

Consider yourself lucky in that respect, nobody sold the A8 locally (my 800XL came from high street electrical retailer Dixons) and the software support was abysmal, i either had to mail order (and had no source of contact addresses for that) or pick something "blind" from an indie shop's catalogue and hope for the best. Without a disk drive (which i couldn't get locally even if the money was there) i didn't even have piracy as an option!

[kiwilove]

Buying an Atari home computer and being able to play an arcade game at home - being the case with Missile Command and a few other classic titles - was repeated when the Playstation hit the market - with it's Ridge Racer and Tekken series.

For the games player - the videogame consoles had the edge over the home computer market, in the era of the SNES vs MegaDrive - these bits of hardware were geared towards arcade games. Easily beating the Amiga and ST computers for arcade styled games.

Of course over 20 - 30+ years you see the same kind of thing happening all over again, when an old system ends up dying - and newer hardware systems come on stream.

The price point of games seem to remain the same? Whereas the hardware has become significantly cheaper? finally...

Though the Playstation has more or less died by now the hardware is priced much cheaper when it is on the way out - like the PS2?

 

I'm not up to date with the latest generation of PS3 - PS4 and the likes. My cut off point is the appearance of the X-Box and PS2.

The latest generation of portable devices - smartphones and tablets - I haven't looked into - it's mainly because of the lack of money - I have not purchased such consoles and devices - though I'm hardly interested when the portable devices lack a decent controller /etc to work with. A touch screen seem so klutzy to use for gaming - and first person shooters really turn me off the latest gaming trend. I'm not really in favour of realistic games in which you shoot and kill people - even they be computer generated characters.

 

This reviewing of history is important - recognizing the trend(s) present and other factors too...

 

Perhaps the tablet games market would really take off - when it becomes so easy and inexpensive to develop for it... like it was with the old 8-bit computers?

[Marius]

Consider yourself lucky in that respect, nobody sold the A8 locally (my 800XL came from high street electrical retailer Dixons) and the software support was abysmal, i either had to mail order (and had no source of contact addresses for that) or pick something "blind" from an indie shop's catalogue and hope for the best. Without a disk drive (which i couldn't get locally even if the money was there) i didn't even have piracy as an option!

 

I was absolutely not aware of what a home computer could do when I was 8. I was satisfied by the rather limited quality of type-in games. Afterwards I'm very glad I had almost no software, since it made myself creative, and almost forced me into understanding the computer to create my own software. Although it was in Basic I was rather good at it for my age. Being 9 I already understood very well that I needed 6502 code to get real cool effects. Unfortunately I did not understand how that works, because I did not know that I had to start my code with PLA first. So every try ended up with a crash, so I gave up on that. Later (when I was 18 or 19) I retried, and I got a lot of help from Ernest Schreurs (one of the creators of The Pooldisk) and that is where I started to understand.

 

Anyway back to the topic. I only had a third party data recorder (which was excellent btw, a lot better than the 1010 I bought years later) and a big pile of listing books and magazines. From time to time I bought myself a budget tape at a local store. My first bought games were The Extirpator, Periscope Up, Dizzy dice, Red Max, Mr. Dig and some others.

 

The very first copy of an original game I got was not before I was 13 or 14: The Goonies on tape.

 

Then I finally got my 1050 diskdrive, and that's also the moment my software library started to grow.

 

But honestly, the most fun with a8 I can remember was and when I was that kid with my books and the games on tape, and the recent years with all the great demos (something changed in my opinion about a8 when I saw the fabulous demo's in 1994/1995 and upwards. I remember myself watching Cool Emotion and Joyride in 1994 and 1995 from HARD, and I really was WOW... what a fabulous computer is a8. I am glad I have this computer.

[TMR]

For the games player - the videogame consoles had the edge over the home computer market, in the era of the SNES vs MegaDrive - these bits of hardware were geared towards arcade games. Easily beating the Amiga and ST computers for arcade styled games.

But not everybody wanted arcade styled games, for them the consoles were a non starter so the Amiga or Atari ST were the best option.

[Marius]

Indeed… I don't know for the Amiga, but I'm rather positive that Atari ST buyers did not buy the Atari ST for games in the first place. I bought my ST in the first place for Cubase, That's Write and Calamus. These programs justified (for me) the purchase of the ST for 100%. Later I discovered other features of the ST, like gaming. I completed Secret of Monkey Island (in black/white) on my ST in the time that there was not internet for everybody without any help (never been more proud haha) and I enjoyed games that I did not have on my XL/XE.

 

But (seriously!) after a day behind the ST, I always enjoyed my XL/XE … I never thought that my XL/XE was an old, outdated computer. In fact: the more I used my ST, the more I appreciated my XL/XE.

 

Even today. My brother-in-law has this XBOX 360 and Wii. Ofcourse… it looks terrific and some games are really cool. I'm not the shoot-and-blood-everywhere type gamer: I am more a Wii than a Xbox kind lover; but every time when I was at his place, and played on those new consoles, I'm MORE THAN HAPPY to fire up my XL/XE and do some gaming on that platform. It has something cute… friendly… simplicity… I don't know, but it is not replaceable by anything else.

[Stormtrooper of Death]

The youngest son (11 years old) of my current girlfriend always wants to play Pacman on my ATari 130XE. He has a PS3, PS2, Wii , PC and a smartphone with touchscreen...

 

I like it, that this kid appreciates the oldschool style of Pacman on the Atari 8bit. I told him, that i might install an Atari 800XL at the house of my girlfriend. So, that he can always play pacman and thousands of other Atari 8bit games....

 

After i had an ATari 8bit for years, i bought a second hand Atari 1040STFM (in 1992). From day 1, i tought the Atari 8bit was superior to the ATari 1040ST. Strange or not ? But the Atari had Pokey sound, while the ST had a less powerfull music chip. Also, the Atari 800XL was built better... Now, in 2014, i have not even the slightest plan to buy a Atari 1040ST or an Amiga. Nope, i like the Atari 8bit like it is. Also loving the fact that there still is software being made by people. And that thanks to the internet I am able to download massive software collections, copy it to a 5.25 drive (with my 286PC and a 5.25 HD diskdrive) and play the software on my original 130XE + 1050 diskdrive.... I also had a C64 in the 90s... (also bought cheap, with a diskdrive, and 200+ diskettes). In the beginning i liked the music of the c64. but after 1 year, i sold my c64. Most games used the same graphic style, the music started to sound the same.... etc.etc. I guess.. in the end... its a matter of opinion, personal taste, memories, etc.... if you like the C64, Atari 8bit, ST, or Amiga.... (or anything else...)

Edited May 18, 2014 by Stormtrooper of Death

[greblus]

After i had an ATari 8bit for years, i bought a second hand Atari 1040STFM (in 1992). From day 1, i tought the Atari 8bit was superior to the ATari 1040ST.

I have exactly the same feelings, although my first contact with ST was just few months ago, when I decided to buy MIST. I mean, I love MIST, it's small and I can play Atari or Amiga games saving a lot of space, but I also think it's good that I didn't expirienced ST in the past. Now I can have more fun with it, especially having much more knowledge about Atari, et all.

 

It's amazing to see my son (4yrs old) playing Robbo, Boulder Dash or Seaquest (he loves Seaquest). I don't think he'll ever want Playstation or Xbox to play games (I alredy bought him another 65XE, just to secure my precious 130XE against some accidental damages, which are always happening when kids are around).

[kiwilove]

I had two mates (not into computers) who got into videogaming because of consoles - namely the Sega Megadrive - and I had 2 other mates who were computer savvy and into their computers who showed keen interest in what the SNES hardware could do.. particularly with Streetfigher II.

The SNES/Megadrive could do well arcade conversions that computers could not do well at all - but if you were into 3D simulations/strategy games - the PC was the way to go.

When 3D came to be the in thing - the console was the cheaper route as upgrading your PC was not cheap - every 3? years..

[Marius]

It's amazing to see my son (4yrs old) playing Robbo, Boulder Dash or Seaquest (he loves Seaquest). I don't think he'll ever want Playstation or Xbox to play games (I alredy bought him another 65XE, just to secure my precious 130XE against some accidental damages, which are always happening when kids are around).

My 5 year old daughter loves ms pacman on the teddybear level and nibbler and mega mania. Three games that are well playable by little hands.

 

Our kids prove us that we are right about our Atari computers ... It is so much fun and it never gets boring.

[Keatah]

When 3D came to be the in thing - the console was the cheaper route as upgrading your PC was not cheap - every 3? years..

 

In the late 90's and early 2000's.. that's right! You had to upgrade very frequently. And it was all bastardized! ..the constant upgrades. Troubleshooting. Instabilities. ugh!!

 

I don't recall having to spend that much on anything 8-bit, ever! And you know what? The 8-bit machines seemed to magically get better as time rolled on. There was always some programmer somewhere discovering a hidden secret or inventing a new technique.

 

Too bad today's machines aren't programmed with the same zeal. Today's machines feel like dumping grounds and time wasting money sponges. Morphed into appliances that try to take your money in subtle and not so subtle ways.

[high voltage]

The A8 is the only computer in the world to have a gaming killer app, Star Raiders, that's cool.

You can read up about it in EG issue 2.

[TMR]

A8s are for serious computing not games, that was for the lesser machines

The A8 is the only computer in the world to have a gaming killer app, Star Raiders, that's cool.

You can read up about it in EG issue 2.

That's a tad trollish, isn't it...? And what about Elite for the BBC Micro?

 

The longer answer is that there aren't really killer apps in the games market; gaming tastes differ too much for the majority of good games to actually become a killer app to start with and the constant churn of titles as gamers look for the "next big thing" means that even the most amazing game will fall by the wayside when something else deemed to be better comes along.

[Keatah]

Star Raiders is still a killer app. One does not bestow such a lofty award and then claim it isn't so when a new generation of neophytes gets into the act which fails to appreciate its significance.

 

Undoubtedly many superior games have passed our way since 1979. And yet Star Raiders still casts it aura and charm. Star Raiders, like Monopoly, is a recognized name of excellence in the Atari 8-bit world.

 

This constant churning of and searching for "the next big thing" is a phenomenon totally separate and has nothing to do with Star Raiders.

[TMR]

Undoubtedly many superior games have passed our way since 1979. And yet Star Raiders still casts it aura and charm. Star Raiders, like Monopoly, is a recognized name of excellence in the Atari 8-bit world.

By that definition there are hundreds of "killer apps" in the gaming world because the same could be applied to all manner of titles over a range of platforms. To be the Atari 8-bit's killer app Star Raiders would have to have been the single product which made a lot of people buy Atari computers to use it; how many people do you think didn't have other considerations when choosing a computer like wanting to play versions of Atari's games back then?

[Marius]

Well... there are (indeed) a few titles that deserve some kind of award, but I don't think the word 'killer app' is appropriate.

 

For me personally M.U.L.E. is the only reason I bought an Atari 800. I wanted to play that game with 3 friends of mine, and it was easier to get an 800 than a multijoy interface (now I have both).

 

When I stick to Atari releases I think there are a few very strong titles: Star Raiders is definitely one of them. But from all those original games from the early eighties Millipede and Missile command are my two most favorites.

[Keatah]

By that definition there are hundreds of "killer apps" in the gaming world because the same could be applied to all manner of titles over a range of platforms. To be the Atari 8-bit's killer app Star Raiders would have to have been the single product which made a lot of people buy Atari computers to use it; how many people do you think didn't have other considerations when choosing a computer like wanting to play versions of Atari's games back then?

 

Oh but it was the single product that made a lot of people buy Atari computers.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Oh but it was the single product that made a lot of people buy Atari computers.

 

It's all relative. Clearly, quite a few people stated they became interested in Atari computers because of Star Raiders, so in that regard it's a killer app (and in fact, it was one of the 25 core influential games in my early book, Vintage Games). It did not, however, cause a dramatic shift in sales momentum, like say, the introduction of VisiCalc did in the Apple II world. With all of that in mind, as long as we keep the definition of killer app fairly loose/in perspective (which we should), then it's more than fair to call "Star Raiders" a killer app for the Atari 8-bit.

[high voltage]

It's well documented

Star Raiders, released in 1979 on cartridge for the Atari 8-bit computer, was considered to be a "killer app" for a computer platform.

Edited May 20, 2014 by high voltage

[high voltage]

That's a tad trollish, isn't it...? And what about Elite for the BBC Micro?

 

The longer answer is that there aren't really killer apps in the games market; gaming tastes differ too much for the majority of good games to actually become a killer app to start with and the constant churn of titles as gamers look for the "next big thing" means that even the most amazing game will fall by the wayside when something else deemed to be better comes along.

Did people buy loads of BBC computers because they saw Elite running on a monitor in a computer shop? I doubt that, the BBC was too expensive.

 

 

 

• The first generally agreed example of a "killer app" in gaming is Space Invaders, released for arcades in 1978 and ported to the Atari VCS (Atari 2600) console in 1980, quadrupling sales of the then three-year-old Atari 2600 platform.^[10]
• Star Raiders, released in 1979 on cartridge for the Atari 8-bit computer, was considered to be a "killer app" for a computer platform.^[11]
• Donkey Kong was the killer app for the ColecoVision console in 1982.
• The video gaming website GameTrailers considers the Super Mario Bros. games to be the killer app for nearly all Nintendo home consoles, Tetris as the killer app for the Game Boy, Grand Theft Auto III for the PlayStation 2, Super Smash Bros. Melee for the GameCube, and Wii Sports for the Nintendo Wii.^[12]
• Computer Gaming World stated that The Legend of Zelda on the Nintendo Entertainment System, Phantasy Star II on the Sega Genesis, and Far East of Eden for the NEC TurboGrafx-16 were killer apps for their consoles.^[13]
• Sonic the Hedgehog, released in 1991, was hailed as a killer app as it revived sales of the (by then) three-year-old Sega Mega Drive / Genesis.
• Myst and The 7th Guest, both released in 1993, are considered to be killer apps for their influence on CD-ROM drive sales, leading to widespread market adoption of the format.
• Final Fantasy VII is considered a "killer app" that the original PlayStation had along with Metal Gear Solid. These were immensely popular exclusives for the system. Earlier killer apps included Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, Gran Turismo and Crash Bandicoot.
• Pokémon Red and Blue would be classified a "killer app" for the seven-year-old Game Boy as a craze evolved around the series in the late 90s, and it was only available on that platform.
• Pokemon Gold and Silver were released at the height of the Pokemon craze alongside the Game Boy Color, and fueled the sales for the console all the way to the release of the Game Boy Advance two years later.
• GoldenEye 007, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and Super Mario 64 are considered killer apps for the Nintendo 64, with Super Mario 64 being one of two launch titles for the console and the main factor behind the platform's initial success.
• Quake is considered the killer app for 3dfx's Voodoo Graphics 3D accelerator card for home computers.
• The Halo series and the Gears of War series are considered^{[according to whom?]} the killer apps of the Xbox and Xbox 360.^[14]
• Titanfall has been referred to as Xbox One's killer app on social media advertising ahead of its release.

 

Just Space Invaders for VCS and Star Raiders for the A8 (both are well documented for being killer-apps), the others, I agree with you there, they are NOT killer-apps. Especially pack-ins like Tetris, SMB and Donkey Kong, otherwise they should include Combat and PSX Demo Disc. A killer-app sells hardware for the software you could purchase for said machine. Lots of people were buying Ataris because they saw the SR starfield running in a computer shop.

Edited May 20, 2014 by high voltage

[Bill Loguidice]

While it's quite possible that Star Raiders was responsible for part of the 10% boost in market share from the end of 1979 to the end of 1980 (it's best year for marketshare) for the Atari 400/800, it's incredibly difficult to quantify something as a true killer app. It certainly was popular, well reviewed, often pointed to as a standout title, fondly remembered today, etc., but I genuinely question if it caused people to purchase Atari 8-bit computers over other platforms at the time. Whatever the answer, bottom line, it certainly did hurt.

[The Usotsuki]

I wouldn't call Pokémon RB a killer app for the GB. That honor goes to Tetris alone.

[atarian63]

I attribute the fact that Apple is still with us today to one thing: Support.

 

Apple put all the details on the machine in the hands of users. They actively supported user groups and created a rockstar-like fanbase. Their users would rather buy the latest Apple gadget than eat (hmm.... like it is today). I would show my Apple buddies games they couldn't even dream of and they'd say, "Yeah, but I have a real computer!" And there you have it! It isn't the experience of using, it's the experience of owning!

 

Any (repeat: ANY) computer company could have done this. All they had to do is:

1. Always budget for real R&D on the next big thing or someone else will. Apple was willing to fail and fail HARD.

 

2. Don't view the userbase as the enemy, but as the ultimate resource:

"OMG! If they get all our precious informations, they'll make software and compete with us...nasty hobbitses!!"

 

In the end, the PC survived not because of IBM but because it was cloned and Apple survived because they had the desire and a clue. I just wish they'd given you a little more more bang for your buck.

 

-Bry

I would attribute apple still being around as more due to the uneducated early customer base, next to the PC it really was the weakest of the bunch and so very overpriced. Never could figure it out back then, apple people wouldnt not even buy software on discount or liquidation, so we raised the prices and then they bought.. braindead...

Edited May 20, 2014 by atarian63

[atarian63]

Did people buy loads of BBC computers because they saw Elite running on a monitor in a computer shop? I doubt that, the BBC was too expensive.

 

 

 

• The first generally agreed example of a "killer app" in gaming is Space Invaders, released for arcades in 1978 and ported to the Atari VCS (Atari 2600) console in 1980, quadrupling sales of the then three-year-old Atari 2600 platform.^[10]
• Star Raiders, released in 1979 on cartridge for the Atari 8-bit computer, was considered to be a "killer app" for a computer platform.^[11]
• Donkey Kong was the killer app for the ColecoVision console in 1982.
• The video gaming website GameTrailers considers the Super Mario Bros. games to be the killer app for nearly all Nintendo home consoles, Tetris as the killer app for the Game Boy, Grand Theft Auto III for the PlayStation 2, Super Smash Bros. Melee for the GameCube, and Wii Sports for the Nintendo Wii.^[12]
• Computer Gaming World stated that The Legend of Zelda on the Nintendo Entertainment System, Phantasy Star II on the Sega Genesis, and Far East of Eden for the NEC TurboGrafx-16 were killer apps for their consoles.^[13]
• Sonic the Hedgehog, released in 1991, was hailed as a killer app as it revived sales of the (by then) three-year-old Sega Mega Drive / Genesis.
• Myst and The 7th Guest, both released in 1993, are considered to be killer apps for their influence on CD-ROM drive sales, leading to widespread market adoption of the format.
• Final Fantasy VII is considered a "killer app" that the original PlayStation had along with Metal Gear Solid. These were immensely popular exclusives for the system. Earlier killer apps included Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, Gran Turismo and Crash Bandicoot.
• Pokémon Red and Blue would be classified a "killer app" for the seven-year-old Game Boy as a craze evolved around the series in the late 90s, and it was only available on that platform.
• Pokemon Gold and Silver were released at the height of the Pokemon craze alongside the Game Boy Color, and fueled the sales for the console all the way to the release of the Game Boy Advance two years later.
• GoldenEye 007, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and Super Mario 64 are considered killer apps for the Nintendo 64, with Super Mario 64 being one of two launch titles for the console and the main factor behind the platform's initial success.
• Quake is considered the killer app for 3dfx's Voodoo Graphics 3D accelerator card for home computers.
• The Halo series and the Gears of War series are considered^{[according to whom?]} the killer apps of the Xbox and Xbox 360.^[14]
• Titanfall has been referred to as Xbox One's killer app on social media advertising ahead of its release.

 

Just Space Invaders for VCS and Star Raiders for the A8 (both are well documented for being killer-apps), the others, I agree with you there, they are NOT killer-apps. Especially pack-ins like Tetris, SMB and Donkey Kong, otherwise they should include Combat and PSX Demo Disc. A killer-app sells hardware for the software you could purchase for said machine. Lots of people were buying Ataris because they saw the SR starfield running in a computer shop.

exceptoon might be Wii Sports for the Wii, sold ALOT of units just based on that pack in!

[atarian63]

 

It's all relative. Clearly, quite a few people stated they became interested in Atari computers because of Star Raiders, so in that regard it's a killer app (and in fact, it was one of the 25 core influential games in my early book, Vintage Games). It did not, however, cause a dramatic shift in sales momentum, like say, the introduction of VisiCalc did in the Apple II world. With all of that in mind, as long as we keep the definition of killer app fairly loose/in perspective (which we should), then it's more than fair to call "Star Raiders" a killer app for the Atari 8-bit.

was a work app like visi calc evenon anyones radar, I do not recall it much back then, peopel seemed much more interest in games,specifically ARCADE games. up to about 1984.