Time to modernize the TI-99/4A Joystick

[Tursi]

The joystick port is slightly frustrating on the expansion side of things because it does not include power or ground pins, which makes powering a more intelligent device difficult. This is why Joytalk, for instance, had a cable that snuck around to the RF modulator port, and grabbed 12v from there.

 

It's worth noting that Q (and Y) are /not/ the same as the joystick buttons... they are actually distinct switches in the hardware. KSCAN just happens to map them to the same codes and to scan both keyboard and joystick in the same mode. Programs that don't use KSCAN can't use them interchangeably -- none of the keyboard keys go to the joystick port.

 

NES, and most of the controllers than came later, use a serial protocol to communicate. The NES one is pretty easy - it just has a clock and a data line. 8 clocks reads all the buttons. I was toying with the idea of trying to hook up a Playstation controller, since that is modern and supports analog and more, but it requires more output lines and I'm wary with the idea of switching I/O port modes on the 9901 to get them.. (I also considered whether the cassette port might help.. but.. so far I don't think so).

 

Backwards compatibility is tougher though. The ports work by grounding one of two select pins, and reading 5 return pins (4 directions and fire). A non-switched controller would need some sort of interface chip.

 

Plus, in both cases, we still need +5v from somewhere. Although maybe that's a small enough hack to be worth supporting..

 

Just building a switch-based stick that uses both joystick ports in one would work fine though. You could have a stick with 6 buttons then, backwards compatible and no hacks needed.

[RobertLM78]

Just building a switch-based stick that uses both joystick ports in one would work fine though. You could have a stick with 6 buttons then, backwards compatible and no hacks needed.

That seems like a great solution . I'd rather have one highly functional 'stick than two hand cripplers.

[Omega-TI]

The joystick port is slightly frustrating on the expansion side of things because it does not include power or ground pins, which makes powering a more intelligent device difficult.

 

I agree, that is why I believe just ignoring the joystick port is the way to go. A new device that could accept input from a modern USB joystick, convert it and send the appropriate commands to the keyboard connector inside the console would be perfect. The power for the device could very easily be branched off the TI power supply inside the console.

 

In theory a simple converter device like this could reside on top of the "clam shell" internally with some double backed foam tape. The USB connector could be mounted on the back of the console (like many mount their F18A).

[marc.hull]

It's really time for you to study up and do this Q. Have a little follow through for once?

[slinkeey]

Do all USB joysticks follow the same protocol?

[Omega-TI]

It's really time for you to study up and do this Q. Have a little follow through for once?

 

I've only had you off of my ignore list for three days. Have you been doing this all along? Get a life and get off my back, mind your own business and leave me alone. And no, don't bother wasting your time with a reply, I will not see it, you'll be back on the ignore list within 2 minutes.

 

Also, while I do like buying toys for my TI, your past behaviour is why I never bothered buying your SID card.

[RXB]

 

I agree, that is why I believe just ignoring the joystick port is the way to go. A new device that could accept input from a modern USB joystick, convert it and send the appropriate commands to the keyboard connector inside the console would be perfect. The power for the device could very easily be branched off the TI power supply inside the console.

 

In theory a simple converter device like this could reside on top of the "clam shell" internally with some double backed foam tape. The USB connector could be mounted on the back of the console (like many mount their F18A).

That opens a whole new can of worms as:

1. Need a new driver for it and new hardware including power?

2. No current programs could interface with it and even if you could who is going to create it and maintain that software and hardware?

3. How much would this cost?

 

I think Tursi has a better solution that does not require huge investment in new software and hardware.

Just use all the lines coming off the Joyst and you have a 6 button Joystick/Gamepad.

Edited May 24, 2014 by RXB

[slinkeey]

I've only had you off of my ignore list for three days. Have you been doing this all along? Get a life and get off my back, mind your own business and leave me alone. And no, don't bother wasting your time with a reply, I will not see it, you'll be back on the ignore list within 2 minutes.

 

Also, while I do like buying toys for my TI, your past behaviour is why I never bothered buying your SID card.

Kevan,

 

I can attest that he has not been doing this all along. Marc is making some valid points. Why don't you make something? Even if it takes you 2,3 or 4+ years. It's a hobby. You don't need to beg people. The person most excited about the idea is probably the most likely to bring the idea to reality.

 

I am not speeking for Marc. I am just sharing my opinion.

Edited May 24, 2014 by slinkeey

[Omega-TI]

Why don't you make something? Even if it takes you 2,3 or 4+ years. It's a hobby. You don't need to beg people. The person most excited about the idea is probably the most likely to bring the idea to reality.

 

I am not speeking for Marc. I am just sharing my opinion.

 

I was not aware that I was begging people. Now why don't I make something? Because I'm not a hardware guy, or a software guy. I also do not have the time, will or patience to devote on such a pursuit. Not that I owe anyone an explanation. I have been trying to give back in a small way with some updated documentation, yeah I know it's lame, but at least it was something.

 

A hobby is supposed to be fun, I'm not having any fun tonight. I'm outta here...

[slinkeey]

Now why don't I make something? Because I'm not a hardware guy, or a software guy. I also do not have the time, will or patience to devote on such a pursuit.

What makes you think everyone else has the time.. Actually, we all probably have the time if we give up a few minutes of atariage here and there. Besides, like the old saying goes, "If you want something done, ask a busy person to do it."

 

I have been trying to give back in a small way with some updated documentation, yeah I know it's lame, but at least it was something.

Not Lame

 

A hobby is supposed to be fun.

What is so fun about asking for things all the time?

[RobertLM78]

I'll chime in here. I don't think the documentation thing is lame either. But, I think Slinkey made a great point - who cares if it takes 4 years to put something together. Start investigating, like Marc says, then you can ask questions whose answers will be much more pertinent to your project.

 

Edit: I think a lot of us have long-term goals that we'd like to see happen on these machines, too

Edited May 24, 2014 by RobertLM78

[+OLD CS1]

I suppose many hands could get more done. One thing is for certain, and I have said this about myself before: some people are idea people, simple as that. I do have the ability to do some of the things I discuss, I just lack time to build up my skill set to perform, and in the shadow of others who do have the skills I would like to think that I can offer food for thought.

 

Reminds me, I have a project idea to work on

[marc.hull]

 

I've only had you off of my ignore list for three days. Have you been doing this all along? Get a life and get off my back, mind your own business and leave me alone. And no, don't bother wasting your time with a reply, I will not see it, you'll be back on the ignore list within 2 minutes.

 

Also, while I do like buying toys for my TI, your past behaviour is why I never bothered buying your SID card.

 

What ignore list. You got me on the "talk to hand program ?" Didn't know this was Facebook. Do we even have an "ignore function" ?

 

I saw a post, happened to be the same old "would someone please change the world for me cause I'm incapable" routine and responded. My post is no more offensive than any of yours so go get your big girl panties on and dry your eyes Janet.

 

Last part of your post was pretty fucked up but that's OK. Take your money and shove it up your ass cause I sure as hell don't need it and and wouldn't take it from a prick like you if I was starving.

[+Lee Stewart]

...

 

Kevan...

 

It's true that the way you express your enthusiasm can be annoying at times—but, don't stop. Your enthusiasm is truly contagious!—witness the number of likes you have, for crying out loud! Who knows, I might even try to implement some of your ideas—after I get fbForth comfortably tucked into cartridge space. Don't be so thin-skinned—you really must learn to ignore Marc's rants—don't even react to them—they're really not worth the effort. He is a very talented TI hacker but does seem to not be himself at times. I'm surprised he doesn't address this issue when he rereads some of his inappropriate posts. Buck up. Don't block his posts. Just ignore them. It really is the best defense. Please, know that many of us here on this forum appreciate your input. It helps to keep the old iron alive!

 

...lee

[TI-Sissy]

Kevan,

 

I can attest that he has not been doing this all along. Marc is making some valid points. Why don't you make something? Even if it takes you 2,3 or 4+ years. It's a hobby. You don't need to beg people. The person most excited about the idea is probably the most likely to bring the idea to reality.

 

I am not speeking for Marc. I am just sharing my opinion.

i play games. i dont program, i dont build stuff, i dont make books, i dont want to. does that make me unworthy to be here?

[+Ksarul]

Nobody is unworthy to be here--and everyone is welcome to contribute to the conversation. It is excellent when the folks on this board contribute to a discussion and that discussion makes the final product better than it would have been in the first place. I think the real problem that showed up earlier in the thread had more to do with the "implied challenge" for others to drop everything they were doing and create a project that met the vision of one individual. That isn't always a bad thing either--the same type of "implied challenge" made me consider doing a quick-and-dirty 32K expansion to put into the Speech Synthesizer. It is now on my list of projects. I would have never come to that thought without the original poster's question.

 

As with everything, it really comes down to something that comes up in discussions between me and my wife: it isn't what you are saying/asking/doing that is the problem, it is how you are going about it. Sometimes, the how completely obliterates the good idea--and that is unfortunate. I've learned to filter out the how issues and look at the real question--and if I like the idea, it joins the queue of fun things for me to do as part of my hobby.

 

We need the folks who just play the games too--they are the folks that buy enough of the hardware/software we design to make the projects satisfying in a wider sense (I'd do most of mine just for me, but it is nice to see that others like them too). About 20 people have one of my 512K cartridge boards now, and most of them were bought to use for some great game images and a utility image made available by Gazoo. These images need some kind of 32K to operate, which is why the quick-and-dirty 32K modification piqued my interest. Someone else asked about making the cartridge boards compatible with a different kind of memory chips (non-volatile static RAM), and that modification is already incorporated into the design and will be available when I do another run of the boards. It is hobby fun--and everyone contributes, even when they think they aren't. . .

[+hloberg]

Only thing makes you worthy here:

1.) You own a Ti-99/4a (or any in it's family of computers) or and emulator of said computer(s) or have and interest there of.

2.) You occasionally use it for whatever purpose you see fit.

3.) You enjoy conversing with others who also have and do 1.) and 2.)

4.) You keep a good attitude because it's just a hobby.

Edited May 25, 2014 by hloberg

[slinkeey]

i play games. i dont program, i dont build stuff, i dont make books, i dont want to. does that make me unworthy to be here?

Yes!! Just Kidding. No, you are not worthless here.

 

Not sure where worthless came in, but okay.

[RobertLM78]

i play games. i dont program, i dont build stuff, i dont make books, i dont want to. does that make me unworthy to be here?

You are more than welcome here: you picked the thing up, plugged it in, and use it. You didn't throw it in the dust bin, like lesser-minded people would have .

[Gary from OPA]

Personally I would love to see a drop in FPGA replacement of the TMS9901 which still does all the normal CRU logic to keyboard, joystick, cassette ports of the TI99, but with a

certain series of commands flip into an enhanced mode offering new forms of signals on old joystick, cassette, keyboard pins for other devices then old slow CRU logic, maybe even

a direct USB port.

 

I have to look at the TI99 schematics again, but I am sure a few of pins go directly from outside or without much logic in way to the actual TMS9901 chip, so it just might be possible.

 

Either way we do need FPGA replacement for TMS9901 as they are starting to die and finding replacements in old unused stock from china and other places is slow and hit and miss at times for length of usage before they die off.

[CosmicBoy]

Backwards compatibility is tougher though. The ports work by grounding one of two select pins, and reading 5 return pins (4 directions and fire). A non-switched controller would need some sort of interface chip.

 

 

I tried to build that with an arduino + NES controller but did not get very far.

also i think i blew the port on my ti.

[eck]

Hello, Gary!

 

While reading your posting I remembered a strange looking TMS9901 on this link:http://www.elettra.trieste.it/wao07/pub/poster/WEPMR01.pdf to which Willsy led me in the past.

I do not know how FPGAs look like, but somebody might ask Erland Müller, if they have an FPGA design for the TMS9901 at DESY. I have no intention to stop you doing this, but it might be saving you some time and you can straight look on the enhancements.

 

PS Rochester Electronics holds the old stuff from TI to make new TMS9900 and 9901. Do not ask me about their prices.

[Tursi]

I wanted to try a 9901 replacement, but, it's soldered to the board, replacing it is non-trivial. I suppose such a mod could leave it in place and simply mod one or two traces to disable it, though.

[Gary from OPA]

Hello, Gary!

 

While reading your posting I remembered a strange looking TMS9901 on this link:http://www.elettra.trieste.it/wao07/pub/poster/WEPMR01.pdf to which Willsy led me in the past.

I do not know how FPGAs look like, but somebody might ask Erland Müller, if they have an FPGA design for the TMS9901 at DESY. I have no intention to stop you doing this, but it might be saving you some time and you can straight look on the enhancements.

 

PS Rochester Electronics holds the old stuff from TI to make new TMS9900 and 9901. Do not ask me about their prices.

Yeah looks like they designed a replacement 9901 using an Altera EPM5064 chip.

 

As for Rochester they can be costly at times, but yeah you can get newer versions.

 

But it would be nice to have a replacement version with added features and pin compatible somehow.

[Gary from OPA]

I wanted to try a 9901 replacement, but, it's soldered to the board, replacing it is non-trivial. I suppose such a mod could leave it in place and simply mod one or two traces to disable it, though.

Yeah that is one problem to make it easy for install, unlike the 9918, the 9901 is soldered along with the 9900, leaving you the messy option of disabling the chip and pushing a connector over it, or unsoldering which most people don't have the skill set for.