Fight for Life - 2014: The Poll of Truth

[+madman]

Yes, that is an option which I will now take after this post. I was just hoping to, at first, shame you into changing your "trolling" habits and then more logically explain myself in the reply to NeoGeoNinja in the hope that what I call trolling would subside by reaching out to your logical and civilized side. But apparently that isn't possible, in your case anyway.

Yep, I'm a troll that helps people with questions and pays to subscribe to the site. You've found out my elaborate scheme! And I would've gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids!

[phoenixdownita]

Which is why I have that last line in my post suggesting just staying clear of FFL if you don't have a procontroller or are not going to get one for any reason.

Let me put it another way, Bill made it clear that in his opinion the Pro ctrl is a good addition for all games, so there's that.

 

But if you had to buy the Pro ctrl in isolation just to play FFL would you be able to justify spending 200US$+ (on top of the price for FFL) in order to play it?

[215US$ is the lowest I can see now on ePay]

And at that point in current prices do you think spending 250US$+ between game and ctrl is something you would do?

 

Just trying to understand a little.

FFL can be had for around 50US$ which is like paying for a new game on current gen consoles so not outrageous but hardly justifiable.

Mind you I did pay 70US$ for Atari Karts and I regretted it, I don't think it is worthy, I didn't enjoy it, heck I didn't enjoy Mario Kart 64 but that was much cheaper, so I've done stupid things in the past out of curiosity but I wouldn't suggest anyone else to repeat once real money is involved, or better I would strongly caution.

 

Now you said that FFL needs the Pro ctrl, but do we agree that at current prices of the Pro ctrl there's no way a subpar fighter like that would make anyone proud of the purchase .... my opinion here let's be clear.

[Pete5125]

You could not have possibly posted that with a straight face...

i did and i have one of those pro controllers everyone is raving about, i say spend the money if you have it they are one of the best co trollers i ever used.

 

if everyone would of just got into jag 3 yrs ago pre angry video game nerd taking a dump on it, then u could of got one for 30 bucks.

 

most of the jag stuff is supply in demandwould love to get soccer kid will i play 80plus dollars in my time.?im guessng no.

 

but i said that about atari karts 3 yrs ago and now its 200 plus a game.

 

i would look around on ebay it will come up with a system buy it then resell the system and get the controller for less. It makes several games play better and their is no excuse (i know atari was sitting on a bunch of them leftover from the atari stealth) still the 6 button everyone had moved on to it sega nintendo etc. Should ofbeen stock controller

[AtariORdead]

 

The PSX was released a full year after the Jaguar at a cost $150 more (in Japan) and a full 2 years later in north america at an affordable price. I don't think he meant "competed directly with the PS1." Just if they were executed better and released early in the systems life (when it mattered, before the Jag went head to head with newer tech), they would've been perceived as impressive as PSX games were seen 2 years later.

 

Now those games weren't all launch titles, so the point is lost anyway. But I agree that those were some of the few Jaguar games that resembled what was to become popular (ie They weren't 16-bit ports, half baked movie license cash-ins, weird niche titles, Psuedo-3D, retro updates, or sub-par clones). I also think the Jaguar could've handled better versions of these games... maybe if they hadn't been rushed out the door by lowest-bidder single-programmer teams they might've been better (although I still think the FFL engine is pretty impressive).

 

The Jaguar was going to rapidly show its age against the PSX and Saturn as soon as they came out anyway... it's too bad Atari squandered their lead as badly as they did.

Reread it. he actually said that FFL, supercross etc showde that the Jag could compete with first generastion PS1 and saturn games.

 

Another great reason why a lot of the retro community treat jag " enthusiasts " the same way people look at the old town drunk screaming about the time he was abducted by aliens.

 

a mixture of bewildered confusion, terrified fascination, and a slight curiosity about just what sort of drugs they took that morning.

[Willard]

Reread it. he actually said that FFL, supercross etc showde that the Jag could compete with first generastion PS1 and saturn games.

 

Another great reason why a lot of the retro community treat jag " enthusiasts " the same way people look at the old town drunk screaming about the time he was abducted by aliens.

 

a mixture of bewildered confusion, terrified fascination, and a slight curiosity about just what sort of drugs they took that morning.

 

I re-read it and consider maybe it could be open for interpretation... I read "similar to what was coming out" as not necessarily the same technically, but the same kind of games that demonstrated Atari had some forward thinking if they didn't botch them so badly (ie They don't have to look as amazing as ridge racer or Sega Rally to be good 3D racers, which were largely absent from home consoles until the PSX/SATURN).

 

I seriously don't think he meant club drive could've competed with first gen psx games, but who knows I can see his point that it had a lot of good ideas that were a big step forward from the previous generation, with terrible execution, if that's the point he was making.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Willard

[phoenixdownita]

.... it had a lot of good ideas .... with terrible execution, ....

And this is the main point.

Good ideas were and even more these days are really a dime a dozen, execution has been/is always the key.

It's pretty obvious that without any innovation it's rather hard to enter a market (or re-enter it in the case of Atari).

I think we should give more credit to execution than just good ideas.

[AtariORdead]

 

I re-read it and consider maybe it could be open for interpretation... I read "similar to what was coming out" as not necessarily the same technically, but the same kind of games that demonstrated Atari had some forward thinking if they didn't botch them so badly (ie They don't have to look as amazing as ridge racer or Sega Rally to be good 3D racers, which were largely absent from home consoles until the PSX/SATURN).

 

I seriously don't think he meant club drive could've competed with first gen psx games, but who knows I can see his point that it had a lot of good ideas that were a big step forward from the previous generation, with terrible execution, if that's the point he was making.

 

 

 

So in other words, despite it being quite clear what he meant, you decided to interpret it as to avoid direct comparison and instead try and spin it into a positive light.

 

Typical Jag owner goggles in effect.

 

As for good ideas, just about every game for the Jag was a clone of a popular game, an uninspired update, or a port of a 16bit game. good ideas? FFL came out in 96 it was a blatant clone and cash in.

[+madman]

Typical Jag owner goggles in effect.

Fumes, not goggles.

[Willard]

And this is the main point.

Good ideas were and even more these days are really a dime a dozen, execution has been/is always the key.

It's pretty obvious that without any innovation it's rather hard to enter a market (or re-enter it in the case of Atari).

I think we should give more credit to execution than just good ideas.

 

If you look at the 3DO or the 32X you'll see a lot of early next-gen efforts were met with mixed results and that a significant number of companies had a hard time picturing the next real evolution in gaming (instead, we got FMV, Doom clones, bad platformers .etc). If everyone had a clear picture of what was to come I'd say they were pretty silly to disregard it. The PC, which was the only other real competitor against the 3DO/32X/Jaguar from a technical standpoints and had a comprative larger consumer base, didn't really have dozens of these groundbreaking 3D games at the time either (Descent, Actua Soccer .etc were good but came a little late).

 

I understand though, that much of the industry was hung up on systems with the highest install base (Genesis / SNES) and so weren't afforded the opportunity to attempt games as ambitious as were possible on the 3DO / 32X / Jaguar (although some great things were done with the FX chip).

 

I agree that execution is key, but so is the vision to think a whole generation ahead, and the ambitious to make the effort.

 

So in other words, despite it being quite clear what he meant, you decided to interpret it as to avoid direct comparison and instead try and spin it into a positive light.

 

Honestly, I don't really care if I misread it in "a more positive light," giving someone the benefit of the doubt on a matter like this I won't lose any sleep at night But I still interpret it now the way i initially did unless he clears it up otherwise. If you interpreted it otherwise (which you evidently did), then your comments were made on the basis of that and I think they are easier to agree with from that perspective too.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Willard

[Flojomojo]

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the game, watching videos of it made by people who can't play it will give anyone a bad impression of it, including me. If I'd never played the game I wouldn't be impressed either with the so-called gameplay shown in that video and others that are on youtube. One of these days I will get a video capture system and do a video of FFL showing what it is like when done by someone who knows the moves and is actually good at the game!

You know this game makes you "earn" the moves, right? Ugh it was so terrible, it's all rushing back now.

[Major Havoc 2049]

You know this game makes you "earn" the moves, right? Ugh it was so terrible, it's all rushing back now.

 

When you beat an opponent, you can absorb two of the defeated characters Special moves of your choice. Each character starts out with four Special moves and one Signature move, along with all the basic attacks and dodges/sidesteps. By the time you fight the devil's son, Junior and fight for a second chance at life, you have access to 14 Special moves. ViMaster Jag, the person who made the video that was posted here is a long time member of the Jaguar community and has posted a bunch of great Jaguar videos on YouTube, but it's obvious he didn't know the moves for FFL. He was just mashing the basic punch and kick buttons, which would make even the best fighting game look boring.

 

The Pro Controller is a must though, as the d-pad is leagues better than the standard controller, which is important in a fighting game and if you don't have it you don't have access to some of the basic moves and you have to use the number pad to sidestep (yuck!).

 

FFL isn't one of those fighting games where you can frantically mash buttons and be OK, you absolutely have to know the Special moves and a lot of them have to be timed just right. Once you have the moves down, the matches become interesting, fluid and don't last that long. I'm not saying FFL was the best fighter out there, but I thought the technical aspect of it's gameplay was unique and made it an interesting, alternative take on early 3-D fighters.​

Edited October 26, 2015 by Major Havoc 2049

[Flojomojo]

"Interesting, alternative take" is a long way from "fun," especially with the grody art design on display and compared rest of the fighting game field at the time. Just because its developer made some poor accessibility choices doesn't make it interesting or deep.

 

If this were on any system other than the Atari Jaguar, no one would be defending it, neither in 1996 nor in 2015. I think that's why I'm flabbergasted enough to even be talking about it here.

[Pete5125]

But that is the case same with dd5 and dragon both where subpar genesis/snes games that no one cares about on systems that released 100s of fighters. But the jag has 5 fighters ultra vortex being the best kasumi ninja, dd5, dragon and ffl

 

ffl is the only 3d fighter and compared to other 3d fighters at the time of release virtua fighter, balls, dungeons and dragons fighter, and teken...it is in the middle....and the best on the jag.

 

it has been 20years, virtua fighter on saturn was so bad they had to make a remix version that they gave out to people that bought the saturn with the 1st 1 for free (intresting sega cared about peoples opions of their games...but thats besides the point)...3d fighters have came a long way the 1st wave or 2 where clunky with weird camera controll, thank the playstation teken series for straightening everybody out on that.

 

but the game isnt unplayable like several other jag games.

[Lost Dragon]

Given that Fight for Life came at a point when Atari was desperate to convince consumers the Jaguar was a cheaper alt.system to the Saturn and PS1 and fact they hired Sega AM2 programmer Francois Bertrand, it's always going to get attention.

Many expected Jaguar Virtua Fighter, yet how many people worked on the Saturn/32X versions of that and with much better development tools/resources etc?.

I never hear other Polygon Fighters brought under the spotlight, in the manner F.F.L is:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DzQ32FFhlEkI&sa=U&ved=0CBUQtwIwAGoVChMI1rmUopvgyAIVye0eCh1ocgzP&usg=AFQjCNFyQaLR8Tbiztlmc4wUkMvDCvxziw

4D Sports Boxing 1st Polygon fighter on home formats i'm aware of and had the FX Chip powered FX Fighter appeared, rather than been scrapped, maybe F.F.L could be seen as something of an evolution of Polygon Fighters, showcasing how games progressed as the technology improved?.

[JagChris]

FFL isn't one of those fighting games where you can frantically mash buttons and be OK, you absolutely have to know the Special moves and a lot of them have to be timed just right. Once you have the moves down, the matches become interesting, fluid and don't last that long. I'm not saying FFL was the best fighter out there, but I thought the technical aspect of it's gameplay was unique and made it an interesting, alternative take on early 3-D fighters.​

 

You don't need to learn any special moves. All you need to do is perform the leap kick on your opponents and you'll beat the entire game.

[Austin]

But if you had to buy the Pro ctrl in isolation just to play FFL would you be able to justify spending 200US$+ (on top of the price for FFL) in order to play it?

[215US$ is the lowest I can see now on ePay]

 

BUT IT'S JUST A NIGHT ON THE TOWN!!!!

 

F*&( ALL THE HATERS.

[Jagman]

Anyone that thinks FFL (beta or final release) is up to par or better than ANY version Virtua Fighter is clearly nuts

[Gunstar]

I'm clearly nuts. The main reason I think it's better is because VF isn't true 3D, it plays like a 2D fighter displayed in 3D. It was merely an in-between stepping stone to true 3D fighters and whether you like FFL or not, it IS true 3D.

[Gunstar]

 

BUT IT'S JUST A NIGHT ON THE TOWN!!!!

 

F*&( ALL THE HATERS.

Or two or three or four. The point is people blow money all the time with nothing to show for it later and with a Jag CD at least it's around to get entertainment from over and over for the one time fee.

[AtariORdead]

I'm clearly nuts. The main reason I think it's better is because VF isn't true 3D, it plays like a 2D fighter displayed in 3D. It was merely an in-between stepping stone to true 3D fighters and whether you like FFL or not, it IS true 3D.

That makes no sense at all. true 3d does not mean its better.

 

Virtua fighter still plays and controls a lot better.

[Gunstar]

That makes no sense at all. true 3d does not mean its better.

 

Virtua fighter still plays and controls a lot better.

Take a reading comprehension course. I said the main reason that I, as in ME PERSONALLY, like it better is because it is true 3D (in movement and control if you still don't get it) , and YES, TO ME, it's better that way. MY OPINION. GET IT?

 

What is better is a matter of opinion. When it comes to if VF or FFL is better I'm may be in the minority, but the poll shows I'm in the majority out of people here who thing FFL is good. (regardless of comparing it to other fighters)

Edited November 2, 2015 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

Let me put it another way, Bill made it clear that in his opinion the Pro ctrl is a good addition for all games, so there's that.

 

But if you had to buy the Pro ctrl in isolation just to play FFL would you be able to justify spending 200US$+ (on top of the price for FFL) in order to play it?

[215US$ is the lowest I can see now on ePay]

And at that point in current prices do you think spending 250US$+ between game and ctrl is something you would do?

 

Just trying to understand a little.

FFL can be had for around 50US$ which is like paying for a new game on current gen consoles so not outrageous but hardly justifiable.

Mind you I did pay 70US$ for Atari Karts and I regretted it, I don't think it is worthy, I didn't enjoy it, heck I didn't enjoy Mario Kart 64 but that was much cheaper, so I've done stupid things in the past out of curiosity but I wouldn't suggest anyone else to repeat once real money is involved, or better I would strongly caution.

 

Now you said that FFL needs the Pro ctrl, but do we agree that at current prices of the Pro ctrl there's no way a subpar fighter like that would make anyone proud of the purchase .... my opinion here let's be clear.

My suggestion has NOTHING to do with current prices or whether anyone thinks the pro-controller or FFL is worth the current prices, even I don't think they are worth what they currently sell for, so drop the price thing already, that has nothing to do with the points I am making. I'm currently staying clear of ANY Jaguar purchase due to the astronomical costs right now, and I wouldn't recommend anything Jag (or some other systems with ridiculous pricing) to anyone right now unless they have the money to burn or money is no object. Aside from pricing, I recommend a pro-controller no matter what, I recommend FFL if you have a pro-controller already (and can get FFL cheap) and I recommend to anyone NOT to get FFL if they don't have a pro-controller or never plan to get one. Do you understand?

Edited November 2, 2015 by Gunstar

[AtariORdead]

Take a reading comprehension course. I said the main reason that I, as in ME PERSONALLY, like it better is because it is true 3D (in movement and control if you still don't get it) , and YES, TO ME, it's better that way. MY OPINION. GET IT?

 

What is better is a matter of opinion. When it comes to if VF or FFL is better I'm may be in the minority, but the poll shows I'm in the majority out of people here who thing FFL is good. (regardless of comparing it to other fighters)

LOL your caps lock seems to be having issues. take a few deep breaths ( I would suggest out in the open awau from any nasty fumes ) and calm the F**k down.

[Gunstar]

LOL your caps lock seems to be having issues. take a few deep breaths ( I would suggest out in the open awau from any nasty fumes ) and calm the F**k down.

My caps are not out of anger or issues, I use them instead of italics because it's easier.That's all. I don't like to switch back and forth constantly with italics. I never do understand why people automatically assume anger or frustration from the use of caps, I don't.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Gunstar