Heaven/TQA Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 ah... and one note... using the rainbow colors of the Atari does not make a game bad ... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 There is one 'quality' thing in games that I find very important, and that is something that is very well done in RGB, and was also very well done in Yoomp, and something I do miss a bit in Dimo's Quest. When I -as a gamer- make a mistake, I absolutely want that it was not the game itself to blame. In RGB: when I lose energy, it was simply MY fault. In Yoomp also… the controls are so good, that I never have the idea that the game did not do what I was trying to do with the controller. In Dimo's Quest on the other hand… I sometimes make mistakes that were absolutely not what I wanted to do, and I also have when something like that goes wrong was actually my mistake, but more a slight flaw in the controls of the game itself. Not that the program is buggy, but it's more like… hmm…. In Level 9 for instance you have the part with the swim belts. The chance you simply make a mistake in the controls, has nothing to do with fun in the game. I KNOW what I need to do with these belts, but when I move my joystick 0.0001 seconds too long down, the belt is already in the wrong place and I can't do anything to repair that mistake. That kind of things do not happen in games like Yoomp or RGB. And just like Creature XL wrote… it is difficult to experience this kind of things of a game when you do not have enough time to test the game. Anyway… almost every game does have it's pros and cons. I'm going to master Dimo's Quest again tonight Even with the slight problem I described above, I'm addicted as h*ll haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Games that push the Atari's limits for good, should always win. And, if people don't prefer that, at least a special price for innovative software should go to the creator of such fine stuff. That's ridiculous. A game should be judged on how much fun it is to play, not how much it pushes the hardware. Maybe you might have voted for Centron 3D? Speaking of voting... are you a member of ABBUC? If so, you were able to cast your vote. If not, then perhaps you should become a member so you can vote for what you like and help those titles you think deserve it, win. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodByteXL Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Ah, ok, I see that. So for the future: A simple Email to software (at) abbuc.de will do fine. Just a simple proposal: Please put the voting sheet, the software instructions, and the images up together for download in the members area and place a notice in the abbuc forum. So every member abroad gets it as early as possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) That's ridiculous. A game should be judged on how much fun it is to play, not how much it pushes the hardware.A Game, yes. It's also easy to judge over games, if you have only one good of them in a contest. But, remember, it is NOT just a games contest. In theory, someone could create a demo and put it there. Maybe you might have voted for Centron 3D? Nothing to say about that "Game" , never seen something seriously working, but also the critism was not serious, too. Speaking of voting... are you a member of ABBUC? If so, you were able to cast your vote. If not, then perhaps you should become a member so you can vote for what you like and help those titles you think deserve it, win. Actually , I didn't vote in the contest. Count the points and see that my votes wouldn't have changed a thing. Edited October 28, 2014 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 ah... and one note... using the rainbow colors of the Atari does not make a game bad ... Depends on the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creature XL Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) A Game, yes. It's also easy to judge over games, if you have only one good of them in a contest. But, remember, it is NOT just a games contest. In theory, someone could create a demo and put it there. Someone COULD enter a demo, however, he wouldn't when he had read the rules. 2.1 Jedes teilnehmende Programm muss: a) ein Spiel, Anwendung, Tool/Utility, Programmiersprache oder DOS sein PS: I am a bit pissed as my football team just lost in the German cup Edited October 28, 2014 by Creature XL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+therealbountybob Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Actually , I didn't vote in the contest. Count the points and see that my votes wouldn't have changed a thing. they would have if you gave me 10 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 You're right that judging games against non-games does not seem fair. I had thought you were arguing that technical merits should trump gameplay and "fun" factor just among games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Someone COULD enter a demo, however, he wouldn't when he had read the rules. Add some parameters to change by the user and call it game or development tool. PS: I am a bit pissed as my football team just lost in the German cup That's life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Games MUST be judged on playability, technical prowess is a nice extra but quality of play is what counts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knimrod Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Just my .02 but whenever judging is done by a large mass of people, the outcome is always the result of a popularity contest. What makes a game or author "popular" is subjective and not necessarily related to just technicality, appearance or playability. I don't think this is a bad thing as this is also true of the market where people vote with their wallets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Games MUST be judged on playability, technical prowess is a nice extra but quality of play is what counts.Ofcourse. But, also in a softwarecontest the contribution has to be counted on it's value depending of the given "range". It's not a games contest . It's an Atari 8 bits Software Contest. See the difference. To me , RGB is the best game in the contest. It also contributes a higher level , or at least shows the possibilities of an extremely high combination of gameplay and technical prowess, resulting in very polished graphics and a very well fitting soundtrack that never gets boring or even annoying. It's one thing that people prefer a different gameplay, but it's another thing, when technical stuff has been discussed in an A8 related community, someone does finally something very well, and the same "community" doesn't see a "forest behind the trees" . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 and the same "community" doesn't see a "forest behind the trees" . No… you are absolutely and totally wrong. The community rewarded this game with a fabulous amount of points -> 586 points while Ransack 'only' got 476 points. So the community did absolutely see that forest, and the community properly rewarded the game with a very high score. You focus far too much on that first place only. I think that is your blind spot. Both games (Dimo's Quest AND RGB) won, only Dimo's Quest was appreciated a little bit more. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less…. please stop wining about this, and please don't make this bigger than it is. Joining a contest means taking the chance to win, or taking the risk to loose. That is what a contest is about. IIRC never were so many points given as in THIS contest. So the quality of the contributions really motivated the community to vote. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) You focus far too much on that first place only. I think that is your blind spot. Both games (Dimo's Quest AND RGB) won, only Dimo's Quest was appreciated a little bit more. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. You're a well candidate to earn the golden Tree please stop wining about this, and please don't make this bigger than it is. Joining a contest means taking the chance to win, or taking the risk to loose. That is what a contest is about. "this" contest is about engaging coders to create programs, to engage people to vote for programs isn't the cause. It's just, if there is no program to vote for, you don't need people for voting. Well, if 390 people was creating high quality software and 10 people find the time for voting, your argues would fit Since ABBUC is THE Club for Atari 8 bits, there has to be a special donation to people who have done something really great for the A8. In RGB it is obvious. There is a big mistake in the rules that could be compensated. The 1st year when things turned wrong was 2007. So I'd say, from that year upwards, a "100 euro " price (or something equal) should be given to those who did obviously great stuff on the A8 in that year... Beginning with Crownland. Edited October 29, 2014 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8Bitjunkie Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) Find a XEX-File Version of "Dimo's Quest in ABBUC Land" attached... Dimo-XEX.zip Edited October 29, 2014 by 8Bitjunkie 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+skr Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 It looks like you all are still discussing with MK or emkay. I have a valuable hint for you: Just use the "ignore" function of this forum. Makes your life much more easier as it keeps you safe from bullshit. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snicklin Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Personally I like to think of how good that the game made me feel. It could be that I have been technically wowed, it could be that it had great gameplay, it could be that something is a brand new concept like no other. Imagine back in the 80s, if you had bought a budget cassette / disk and you got one of these games, how good would you feel that you'd spent your money on it? In a previous contest (Kaz's I think), it was questioned as to why I had placed one game higher than another. I stated that it was because it was a style of game which I enjoyed but the other one I didn't as much (though it was still good). To me, it is all about the feeling inside. How different people come to that feeling is different. We all have different things that make us tick. And to this day since the late 80s, I do not like the game "Kick off" - and why? Because the cassette wouldn't load and I'd lost the receipt. It made me feel bad inside. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 It looks like you all are still discussing with MK or emkay. I have a valuable hint for you: Just use the "ignore" function of this forum. Makes your life much more easier as it keeps you safe from bullshit. It's said, never to advice in a crowd. In a club, where people should have somehow a similar interest, a forced discussion of a problematic point should be accepted. Thanks for adding informations why some progress on the A8 takes decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Imagine back in the 80s, if you had bought a budget cassette / disk and you got one of these games, how good would you feel that you'd spent your money on it? Henry's House was a big wow and also fun to play. Actually I had an abonnement for some years in a dedicated store, to send me a cassette or disk of a new Atari 8 bit release. So the feelings always have been mixed. In a previous contest (Kaz's I think), it was questioned as to why I had placed one game higher than another. I stated that it was because it was a style of game which I enjoyed but the other one I didn't as much (though it was still good). To me, it is all about the feeling inside. How different people come to that feeling is different. We all have different things that make us tick. Everyone's taste is different. That's also a point why people still use an 8 bit computer and others don't even know what "Atari" means exactly, when playing a game on the I Phone. Possibly the "taste" is the same, it's just what they learned that they either use the Atari or the I-Phone. A polished game , like RGB, can show what happens, when using the hard to handle A8 features in a "polished" way. Possibly, some coder will see options . to make something really better, possibly it's really the max. what we could get there. Having such games back in the 80s. RGB builds an increasing row with Drop Zone and IK. 1984, 1985.... 2014 ... Back in the 80s someone would even have expected a game like Project-M . As the A8 has been build for 1st person games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creature XL Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Henry's House was a big wow and also fun to play. Actually I had an abonnement for some years in a dedicated store, to send me a cassette or disk of a new Atari 8 bit release. So the feelings always have been mixed. Everyone's taste is different. That's also a point why people still use an 8 bit computer and others don't even know what "Atari" means exactly, when playing a game on the I Phone. Possibly the "taste" is the same, it's just what they learned that they either use the Atari or the I-Phone. A polished game , like RGB, can show what happens, when using the hard to handle A8 features in a "polished" way. Possibly, some coder will see options . to make something really better, possibly it's really the max. what we could get there. Having such games back in the 80s. RGB builds an increasing row with Drop Zone and IK. 1984, 1985.... 2014 ... Back in the 80s someone would even have expected a game like Project-M . As the A8 has been build for 1st person games. Why are you so obsessed with that game? The coder himself said he only uses two color changes per charline. The gfx are superb no doubt about it, teh game play idea is cool, but I can see nothing in the coding which is "outstanding". I really hope MaPa understands what I am trying to saying. It's not ment disrespectfully. In no way I want to say the game is easy to code. @Emkay: parts of "HitC" are even more advanced then stuff in RGB. At least in the levels I played the robots move on the same vertical position. Softsprites in charmode are easier/faster to code thn free moving sprites ("HitC") . The Robots shoot randmomly and move left to right. In "HitC" all NPC have their own routine and the shots aim at the player. And lots of other stuff. So TECHNICALLY it should have won the last years compo. But it was horrible to play and no one lieked it so it got 6th (or so). Oh and yeah. if you like color changes.. in HitC there are 2-4 register changes possible in each charline, should I put some color changes in there which look stupid? Just bevause it is possible? Dont even bother to answer. I had you on ignore for years and just recently unignored you. But now its time do it again. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaPa Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Btw. in RGB there are no real softsprites. The robots are preshifted in charset so I'm only copying 8 chars on the screen per robot. No redefining characters, no masking etc. Cheap I know but it works and is enough 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snicklin Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Sometimes I have tried to think of how to design something which works around the Atari's strengths/(which are also limitations). I've tried to think of how to exploit them as much as possible. Personally, I think that RGB worked -with- these limitations very well and exploited the best of the Atari. The game is designed horizontally and fits the Atari well. And with respect to the Atari's strengths also being limitations, Shahid Ahmad who made Chimera talks briefly about them on "Bedrooms to Billions" without even mentioning the word "Atari". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Why are you so obsessed with that game? Why were you thinking in those boxes? RGB is one of many games, just an example .... The coder himself said he only uses two color changes per charline. I know. The gfx are superb no doubt about it, teh game play idea is cool, but I can see nothing in the coding which is "outstanding". That's your fault. I really hope MaPa understands what I am trying to saying. It's not ment disrespectfully. In no way I want to say the game is easy to code. @Emkay: parts of "HitC" are even more advanced then stuff in RGB. At least in the levels I played the robots move on the same vertical position. Softsprites in charmode are easier/faster to code thn free moving sprites ("HitC") . The Robots shoot randmomly and move left to right. In "HitC" all NPC have their own routine and the shots aim at the player. And lots of other stuff. So TECHNICALLY it should have won the last years compo. But it was horrible to play and no one lieked it so it got 6th (or so). Oh and yeah. if you like color changes.. in HitC there are 2-4 register changes possible in each charline, should I put some color changes in there which look stupid? Just bevause it is possible? Heli in the caves had a - not good - control mechanism. Dont even bother to answer. I had you on ignore for years and just recently unignored you. But now its time do it again. Sorry. That's the Ring closing. Ignoring what others have to say (or want), and wondering why a production isn't wanted. Edited October 30, 2014 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudografx Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Actually, there is a bit more happening in the DLIs than just changing 2 colour registers: There are 6 fonts used in the gameplay area, which are switched on every line. Then there are the PMG overlays for all robots, bonuses and the recalibrator machines, whose horizontal positions and colours also have to be changed quite frequently. When you add the widescreen mode used, you end up with pretty busy DLI routines to control everything. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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