AA Site Survey: Atari Jaguar and Jaguar CD Owners

[+CyranoJ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajsCY8SjJ1Y

[NeoGeoNinja]

Right then. So far...

 

Approx. only 1 in 4 members actually DON'T own the Jag CD i.e. I'm actually quite surprised by how many member DO own it! Thought/presumed it may have been more evenly split.

 

However, that said, TWICE as many people - where possible - would prefer to buy their games on Cart, if available. No doubt, most of which, are still happy to buy on CD, if only available for CD - or, as suggested by another member, some actually just buy BOTH Cart & CD releases!

 

Thanks for the contributions thus far

Edited June 30, 2014 by NeoGeoNinja

[JagChris]

I don't mind buying on cart, however carts are harder to make. If OOTW had been done on CD there probably would not be the shortage and scalping problems there are now.

 

Right then. So far...

 

Approx. only 1 in 4 members actually DON'T own the Jag CD i.e. I'm actually quite surprised by how many member DO own it! Thought/presumed it may have been more evenly split.

 

However, that said, TWICE as many people - where possible - would prefer to buy their games on Cart, if available. No doubt, most of which, are still happy to buy on CD, if only available for CD - or, as suggested by another member, some actually just buy BOTH Cart & CD releases!

 

Thanks for the contributions thus far

[+Stephen Moss]

I own a CD unit and so I voted for a preference for CD games as...

1) We could do with more CD games in general

2) They are easier and cheaper than cartridges to produce

3) You can get better graphics and larger gaming environment/more levels due to the extra space.

 

however, I appreciate that cartridge releases have the advantage that every Jag owner can play them and would purchase any game I wanted regardless of if it was a cart or CD release.

[+CyranoJ]

1) Maybe

2) Yes

3) No

 

I own a CD unit and so I voted for a preference for CD games as...
1) We could do with more CD games in general
2) They are easier and cheaper than cartridges to produce
3) You can get better graphics and larger gaming environment/more levels due to the extra space.

however, I appreciate that cartridge releases have the advantage that every Jag owner can play them and would purchase any game I wanted regardless of if it was a cart or CD release.

[Felyx]

Retrogaming means playing old systems but not necessarily with outdated tech: for example I added to my Apple II an USB port so I can use USB keys instead of 5.25 floppies and it changes life for every load.

 

Cart are expensive to produce and offer very limited memory size. CD are cheap and offer about 150x more space for datas.

 

That sounds weird to me that some prefer to pay about 2 times more for having a game on cart instead than on CD.

 

What surprises me with this vote is to see that against all odds most of the voters so far have a Jag CD: could be the believed minority be in fact the majority amongst Jaguar retrogamers?

Edited July 2, 2014 by Felyx

[Felyx]

1) Maybe

2) Yes

3) No

 

True that the files created with Jiffi to burn on CD-R are limited on size to the Jaguar memory size (ie about 4 Mo if I 'am correct).

 

Now I would say yes to the third point as beyond your cool tool, CD are offering about 650Mo of space for datas.

 

For example Orion is about to release an upgraded version of Elansar on CD with better graphics and movie scenes he could not have included on cart because of the lack of memory space.

[NeoGeoNinja]

That sounds weird to me that some prefer to pay about 2 times more for having a game on cart instead than on CD.

 

What surprises me with this vote is to see that against all odds most of the voters so far have a Jag CD: could be the believed minority be in fact the majority amongst Jaguar retrogamers?

 

What you're conveniently overlooking is the 2nd part of the voting process.

 

Regardless of how many do, or do not, own the Jag CD unit, on the whole, most prefer Cart releases > CD releases.

 

This isn't to say those individual are against CD releases, and if only the CD release exists, they'll happily buy it. But, if offered the choice between the two, would rather buy Cart > CD or, indeed, both...

[Felyx]

What you're conveniently overlooking is the 2nd part of the voting process.

Regardless of how many do, or do not, own the Jag CD unit, on the whole, most prefer Cart releases > CD releases.

 

I wrote that this fact sounds weird to me so I don't see where I conveniently overlooked it

[Chilly Willy]

Contrary to what many people think, CDs do NOT give you extra/better looking data for games in general. Just because you can put 600 MBytes of textures on a CD doesn't mean they can be used in the game. You've only got 2MBytes of ram in the Jaguar, and once it's full, it's FULL. To use more data, you would need to flush any unused data and load the new data from disc. That is exactly the reason PSX Doom has simplified levels and textures despite being more than powerful enough to play the "full" game. To fit in 2MB of ram, many levels of Doom would need to be split into several sublevels and still maintain the same detail as the PC. As it is, the Jaguar cart version of Doom loads textures on the fly from rom since there's not enough room to even load the entire simplified levels and data into 2MB of ram. At least loading from rom is fast. Loading from the Jaguar CD would be VERY slow.

 

In case you were wondering, some levels of (full) Doom at high difficulty setting can push ram usage over 10MBytes. The original Doom code was designed to setup a zone for ram usage of 2 to 6 MBytes in size (for 4 to 8 MByte systems), and loaded the data on the fly from hard drive. You can always tell in a level when the data loads - the hard drive light goes on and the game stutters almost to full halt. It's far worse when trying to play directly from CD, even on higher speed CDs since even 52X CDs usually have 1 to 2 seconds of seek time.

[+SabertoothRetro]

I prefer carts for homebrews because (1) there is 10x the potential userbase for the Jaguar vs. Jaguar CD and (2) I'm absolutely paranoid that my Jag CD will stop working at some point. In fact, I just bought a spare unit.

 

That said, I believe that most people interested in new Jaguar games likely own both the Jaguar and Jag CD. Given that production costs are much less for a CD, I can certainly appreciate a developer's preference for that medium. Bottom line; I'll support whatever new titles people choose to put out on either medium.

[NeoGeoNinja]

I prefer carts for homebrews because (1) there is 10x the potential userbase for the Jaguar vs. Jaguar CD...

Apparently not. At least, not according to our survey here, so far.

 

It's the other way around, with 5x more of the potential userbase actually having Jag CD's!

[JagChris]

I'm starting to think a good percentage of that population prefers cart because they generally know it will be a limited run and they can scalp and speculate on them.

 

 

What you're conveniently overlooking is the 2nd part of the voting process.

 

Regardless of how many do, or do not, own the Jag CD unit, on the whole, most prefer Cart releases > CD releases.

[+SabertoothRetro]

Apparently not. At least, not according to our survey here, so far.

 

It's the other way around, with 5x more of the potential userbase actually having Jag CD's!

Of course, by "potential" I was talking about the 250k Jaguars sold vs. the 20k or so Jag CDs.

 

Even in this poll 100% of users have Jaguars (20% Jaguar only) while 80% have a Jag CD. Accordingly, you're excluding 20% of this active retro gaming community from purchase by releasing to CD only. This is one of the problems with add-ons in general; they fracture the market.

Edited July 3, 2014 by atariLBC

[guiltl3ss]

I think the most obvious advantage the CD has over the cart is ease and cost of production. Carts seem to be more complicated. I know I personally prefer cart but that's also because I still need a Jag CD. If I ever get my Jag Dev going, I'll be working on cart releases...but this survey has really surprised me with the number of Jag CD owners. Maybe I'll consider getting a Jag CD now to work with...who knows. Either way, great information and it's always great to host dialogues like this!

[+Mitch]

I prefer carts because if I want to play it again in five years I know it will work. I don't have that same confidence in the JagCD player or homebrew CD-Rs.

 

Mitch

[NeoGeoNinja]

I prefer carts because if I want to play it again in five years I know it will work. I don't have that same confidence in the JagCD player or homebrew CD-Rs.

 

Mitch

 

There shouldn't be any issues with modern day, pressed silvers though...

[JagChris]

My CDs still work after almost 20 years. Nary a failure in the bunch. PRetty good track record.

 

 

There shouldn't be any issues with modern day, pressed silvers though...

[NeoGeoNinja]

My CDs still work after almost 20 years. Nary a failure in the bunch. PRetty good track record.

 

Yeah, same. Only some of those early DC GD-Roms which can cause unexpected failure at times (PowerStone, Soul Calibur & Sonic Adventure, from personal experience).

 

Otherwise, never a problem...

[+DamonicFury]

Just own the basic Jag, and only got it due to getting lucky with an as-is Ebay sale last year. Picked up most of the top rated games for it since then (skipping over games I've played on other platforms for years) and have found it to be a fun system. But my heart is really with the 70s/80s Atari systems, so I'm not likely to be getting a Jag CD given the expense and reliability issues. But more power to those who do enjoy the extra games for it!

[gorfcadet]

I wish I could enjoy the homebrew side of Jag, but I just can't pony up for the cd. I like my Jaguar, but I understand why devs like the cd. I just can't afford one that works.

Wish cart was the homebrew method of choice, but I understand the appeal of using a 25 cent cd over dealing with carts.

[Gregory DG]

Funny thing with mine... It works better with the CD drive attached. Take it off and it's hit or miss if the cart will work. :/

[+CyranoJ]

Try one of the many carts with a BJL loader?

 

I wish I could enjoy the homebrew side of Jag, but I just can't pony up for the cd. I like my Jaguar, but I understand why devs like the cd. I just can't afford one that works.
Wish cart was the homebrew method of choice, but I understand the appeal of using a 25 cent cd over dealing with carts.

[VladR]

Contrary to what many people think, CDs do NOT give you extra/better looking data for games in general. Just because you can put 600 MBytes of textures on a CD doesn't mean they can be used in the game. You've only got 2MBytes of ram in the Jaguar, and once it's full, it's FULL. To use more data, you would need to flush any unused data and load the new data from disc. That is exactly the reason PSX Doom has simplified levels and textures despite being more than powerful enough to play the "full" game. To fit in 2MB of ram, many levels of Doom would need to be split into several sublevels and still maintain the same detail as the PC. As it is, the Jaguar cart version of Doom loads textures on the fly from rom since there's not enough room to even load the entire simplified levels and data into 2MB of ram. At least loading from rom is fast. Loading from the Jaguar CD would be VERY slow.

 

In case you were wondering, some levels of (full) Doom at high difficulty setting can push ram usage over 10MBytes. The original Doom code was designed to setup a zone for ram usage of 2 to 6 MBytes in size (for 4 to 8 MByte systems), and loaded the data on the fly from hard drive. You can always tell in a level when the data loads - the hard drive light goes on and the game stutters almost to full halt. It's far worse when trying to play directly from CD, even on higher speed CDs since even 52X CDs usually have 1 to 2 seconds of seek time.

That's a very, very wrong example - since you are using a game that was designed to run on 4-8 MB systems vs 2 MB system. Of course, it's not going to work.

 

But if you actually designed the game around the 2 MB limitation and made sure each level is designed to fit into 2 MB, then CD will leave cart in a shadow, from the variety of art assets perspective.

 

Then, each level can have totally unique and different backgrounds, different tiles, different characters, different sounds&music.

 

Now granted, nobody will probably produce a homebrew jag game with 25 different environments, since that would require a team of artists and about a 3-6 months full-time work.

 

 

But the CD totally gives you this opportunity. It's a total nonsense to claim that you cannot use 650 MB for additional variety of art assets.

 

You can, you just need to design it from the scratch for CD.

 

 

 

As an example, let's take Final-Fantasy-style 2D RPG with 256-color gfx. Let's say that each environment tileset is 1024x1024 = 1 MB. Then, you have the character sheet worth 0.25 MB. You still have 0.75 MB for everything else.

 

Even with 5 environments, you cannot fit onto the cart.

 

And the argument of fast loading is a total nonsense for 2D RPG where you switch environments every hour or so. Just display the statistics at the end of the episode, and while player reads it, just load the new environment.

 

Does this sound remotely complex ?

[JagChris]

Ken Rose did some sort of multi-thread loading trick that reduced the apparent loading speed on Black Ice White Noise significantly.