Atari Corp - Business is War

[Lost Dragon]

I honestly do hope it's just on pause, because as a UK gamer the entire 7800 Vs NES battle completely passed me by.

 

Both arriving too late to have any real impact.

 

Having said that...i would also hope research is going into a very UK based battle..Sir Clive with the Sinclair QL vs Atari UK with the ST.

 

Short lived, but very bitter and it never gets brought up.

 

As i mentioned in another thread this evening, when looking into the Panther, Rob Zydbel and Gary Johnson couldn't even remember what games they had been working on or how many, only that they weren't coin op conversions.

 

It is asking a great deal of people to remember with clarity events from 30 years ago.

 

Unless they documented things. .it's wide open.

 

And yes,we sadly have lost the likes of Jack Tramiel, Les Player, Paul Woakes etc.

 

I only found details of a few of the Atari UK names i mentioned earlier from some 16 years ago.

 

Harsh reality is, so much might now be lost forever.

 

An update on the progress of the book would be reassuring.

[pacman000]

Any good articles on the Panther? You've got me curious...

[Lost Dragon]

Unseen64 and GTW were at 1 point both planning to write a feature on it, but plans changed.

 

I did try a thread containing collected Press from the time and information found since by contacting various folks from the industry :

 

http://assemblergames.com/threads/the-atari-panther-the-game-claims-uk-press-coverage-etc.66307/

 

But it ended up being derailed by the usual suspect on Assembler and Atarimania had to waste valuable time deleting a snide comment from another when they put a link to the Jim Gregory interview up on their FB page.

 

So i didn't waste any more time looking into it, rather let these individuals come forward with what they found...

 

Scott D.Williamson has chatted about it on here in the past also:

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/188836-some-pretty-awesome-graphics-for-the-lynx/page-3

 

There were plans for an Australian Retro site to use the findings above to do a revamp of an old Panther article they wrote, but not heard anything from them since.

 

Ditto a dedicated Strider site were going to use the Tiertex Lynx/Panther Strider II info to do an article for the relaunch of their site.

 

Make of the info what you will,the planned hardware seems to split people down the middle.

 

It would of either been a serious contender to the SNES or was an horrific waste of time and resources.

 

I couldn't tell you if claims Imagitec Design were working on Games for it are true,none of the people myself or Unseen64 contacted had any recollection of it, not seen it listed on others C.V's and when the claims do go up,sources never seem to be named.

 

If you worked on the Panther whilst at Imagitec Design, please step forward

Edited July 18, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[Lost Dragon]

Any good articles on the Panther? You've got me curious...

Just posted latest finds here:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/80735-panther/page-3

[Lost Dragon]

I believe there was an interview with Jack Tramiel scheduled for the purposes of the book, but Jack sadly passed away before it could take place?.

 

But it was also my understanding that Jack was telling people he was done with talking about the more confrontational periods of his life where he had to be ruthless in order to

run a company in a cut throat industry.

 

He was now retired, a grandfather who

wanted to spend most of his time traveling with his family..rather than rake through his time in the games industry?.

 

So i'm rather surprised he agreed to an interview and wonder just how much he would of been willing to answer? .

Edited August 11, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[AguyinarRPG]

I believe there was an interview with Jack Tramiel scheduled for the purposes of the book, but Jack sadly passed away before it could take place?.

 

That's correct. Marty and Curt had it set up but he passed away before then.

 

According to his sons, he was going to be open. They truly believe that he was ready to spill the beans on everything precisely because he was old and had never really spoken openly before. Remember, Jack was a primary funder of a Holocaust Museum. He understood the value of history but I think he also realized that some of the things he had personally done were unforgivable in a lot of people's eyes. His stint at Atari wasn't nearly as bad as at Commodore but he still left a lot of bitter people in his wake.

 

I do know that his sons were always a bit distant from him in terms of actually knowing who he was behind the veil, but I look forward to their input in the book if it does eventually come out. Jack could have revealed a lot but you take your dues in history. I've personally missed out on way too many people that I could have got to.

[Lost Dragon]

If Jack was ready to do a totally honest, warts and all type look back at his buisness life interview then the timing of his passing is all the more bitter.

 

 

I've read a lot of press statements by him, interviews with him, over the years and the same applies with both Sam and Leonard Tramiel.

 

Sam from what i have read, seemed to over sell almost everything. ..from products that would never appear, hardware abilities and the roles of people under him.

 

I recently contacted a UK Engineer on behalf of Clint Thompson, as Sam had made out the guy was a crucial part of the Jag Duo engineering team and more, turns out his role was very minor.

 

But..A lot of people from the industry that met him, worked under him, speak highly enough of him to make him an interesting character in my eyes.

 

As for Leonard? Even this month's RG magazine has him attacked somewhat by Imagitec Design's Martin Hooley for a second time.

 

He's never been someone i have personally approached to put questions to, as he doesn't seem that open to critiscm, which makes shaping questions a bit akward.

 

The son who always seems to be in the shadows is Gary Tramiel. ..

 

Last i can remember him doing anything high profile was the very early Jaguar days, showing video footage of the Jaguar in a small Atari booth at a big trade event.

[Andromeda Stardust]

RIP Jack Tramiel.

 

Sadly his best kept secrets he took to the grave, however the Atari/Nintendo wars middle chapter of Atari (and it's subsequent downfall in the 90s) speaks for itself. I don't honestly believe Tramiel had much of a shot at reviving Atari during the 90s regardless of what he did. Atari as a consumer brand was already tarnished. More R&D (or even flooding the market with Pokey based games) would have been costly and not likely contributed to increased sales. Atari had almost no 3rd party developers on board due to Nintendo; nobody cared about early 80s arcade games anymore, and even the Arcade division saw the writing on the wall and instead of supporting the 7800, was instead releasing games on the competing NES under the Tengen label. Still, a number of otherwise SMS / 7800 exclusives got ported under the Tengen label, and some even played better on the NES.

 

While I would love to read the next chapter (especially the war over who had the rights to produce Tetris), it appears as though, like other Atari related projects that don't warrant mention here, the "Business is War" book is on an indefinite hiatus. Curt, Marty, if you guys are still reading this, I would love to be proven wrong with an announcement of something, anything. Currently we have a book cover and website that's not been updated in years...

[AguyinarRPG]

It wasn't really consumer damage that left Atari with no chance, it was retailer damage. If you read Brian Bagnall's Commodore on the Edge, you can see that Jack slashed and burned his way to the top with Commodore by offering special deals to mass market retailers, leaving all the specialty retailers in the dust. The deflated market meant that mass market retailers didn't want to deal with video games at all and nobody wanted to deal with Jack because they'd knew he'd screw them if he ever got a decent enough success. Plus, Atari even though it had split still had that stigma as being the company that flooded the market with games. They were still pushing out inventory from 1982 as late as 1986. Therefore, the Atari products generally could not get into the hands into consumers even if there was huge demand, which there wasn't because they didn't have the content.

 

Atari Corp had nothing to do with the Tetris fiasco. If you want to know most of the story you can listen to my good friend Alex Smith's podcast on it, trying to untangle a lot of the webs of the timing and influence. Atari Games was not a division of Atari Corp and will be covered in a separate book, "Last in Fun", so said Marty.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Atari Corp had nothing to do with the Tetris fiasco. If you want to know most of the story you can listen to my good friend Alex Smith's podcast on it, trying to untangle a lot of the webs of the timing and influence. Atari Games was not a division of Atari Corp and will be covered in a separate book, "Last in Fun", so said Marty.

I am aware of this fact. Pretty douchey if you ask me for Atari Games not to support Atari Corp by licensing popular arcade titles to the system. We did get an excellent port of Food Fight to the 7800, one of the fresher arcade ports released for the sytem. I think Food Fight was developed just prior to the split, so Atari Corp was able to port it to the 7800. It is one of the few truly good 7800 exclusives, and the "replay" easter egg was very well excecuted.

[pacman000]

Remember, Namco bought controlling interest in Atari Games. Since Namco already had experience with the Famicom it makes since they'd develop for the NES. Also, Atari's arcade & home divisions were run like they were separate companies; there might not have been much loyalty between the two divisions once the company was split.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Remember, Namco bought controlling interest in Atari Games. Since Namco already had experience with the Famicom it makes since they'd develop for the NES. Also, Atari's arcade & home divisions were run like they were separate companies; there might not have been much loyalty between the two divisions once the company was split.

That would explain the Pacman license Tengen had.

 

I wonder what games Namco released directly to the NES as a 3rd party developer, besides the 1993 reissue of Pacman and the regrettably inferior Ms Pacman? Most of their "Namcot" Famicom catalog did not make it to the states or got released by third party studios stateside. And Ms Pacman releases on both the SNES and Genesis used the Tengen port, whereas the Namco version got neutered.

[Lost Dragon]

So....

 

The book which was on hold until the 7800XM was finished, is now at the back of an even longer queue?

 

3200 has to be crowdfunded and launched, then 7800XM finished and launched, then and only then work will restart on the book?.

[Andromeda Stardust]

So....

 

The book which was on hold until the 7800XM was finished, is now at the back of an even longer queue?

 

3200 has to be crowdfunded and launched, then 7800XM finished and launched, then and only then work will restart on the book?.

Someone else will make a 7800 clone if they don't. If they don't finish the book, the information and research will be lost to the times I'm afraid. Many of the people who worked at Atari back in the day are getting old and dropping like flies.

[atarian1]

Someone else will make a 7800 clone if they don't. If they don't finish the book, the information and research will be lost to the times I'm afraid. Many of the people who worked at Atari back in the day are getting old and dropping like flies.

That's why I hate the 3200 announcement. Drop the 3200 crap and finish the book first.

[Lost Dragon]

To be blunt,the 3200 announcement was the last thing i wanted to hear.

I don't have a 7800XM on order, i have no need of something like the 3200.

 

I did have such high hopes for the book,which have now been dashed.

 

A project like this was always going to be time sensitive.

 

We've already lost Jack, those from the industry thankfully still with us that are still willing to talk openly admit memories are fading and trying to give accurate accounts from so many years ago,simply isn't possible in a lot of cases.

 

People i have asked about their work on the Panther struggle to think back to that era with clarity.

 

I've yet to see the interviews with the Lynx Sources GTW interviewed,but i know the internal documents Scott Stilphen kindly forwarded on were literally life savers as they were datum points for the interviews and being documented accounts rather than speculation, helped keep the questions on track.

 

I fear this book is heading into the realm of a missed opportunity now the 3200 will be the focus.

[MrMaddog]

It is frustrasting that the book will never come out, it's getting to the point where no one even knows the ST computer even existed these days!

[Lost Dragon]

It is frustrasting that the book will never come out, it's getting to the point where no one even knows the ST computer even existed these days!

Don't get me started..

 

If the ST version of a game is lucky enough to be covered by UK press these days,it's written off as a poor relation to the Amiga version.

 

Greyfox and Atari Crypt both did valiant attempts to offer digital magazines to try and address the imbalance, the last issue of Edge i bought years ago had a Making Of Alpha Waves on the ST, but other than that we have seen some dreadful ST coverage the few times it's allocated space.

 

People being told ST Myth was finished, Defender Of The Crown arrived on it before the Amiga.

 

Games like Trantor:Last Storm Trooper and Thunderburner being put forward as showcase games.

 

It doesn't look like Future Publishing see it as a format that will see readers flocking to it's magazines.

 

We needed this book,badly.

[Lost Dragon]

Having already lost Bob Wakelin this year and now Ben Daglish, it's a strong reminder of just how fragile our time is.

 

2 legends from the C64 scene now sadly no longer with us.

 

I pray further research for the Atari Inc book can somehow be carried out before we loose more games industry legends and their insights and experiences.

[Clint Thompson]

Seems crazy that we're going on almost 6 years since the original announcement. Time has its ways....

 

Any further progress with this or realistic projected ETA?

[Lost Dragon]

Awful lot of Atari related books been released or scheduled to be release

4 hours ago, Clint Thompson said:

Seems crazy that we're going on almost 6 years since the original announcement. Time has its ways....

 

Any further progress with this or realistic projected ETA?

You gotta wonder if it's still a viable project Clint.

 

You look at all the Atari related books that have been released in those 6 years and more still ahead (Sam Dyer started doing Atari Compendium books now)

 

And you look at the interviews so many people have done with people who worked on something like the Jaguar,never mind far earlier hardware like the 7800 and get answers like..i don't remember or my memory is hazy.

 

When I showed Atari Jaguar playtesters the actual Atari Corp playtest reports they wrote and they say they have no recollection... 

 

 

 

Then you got the likes of Hooley,Gregory etc blaming Leonard Tramiel for a companies failings and yet other staff give very different accounts..

 

Jane Whittaker being exposed as a serial liar..

 

The task of trying to decipher what really went on and shift through multiple accounts based on multiple sources of information and a lot of those anecdotal evidence..that's a headbake on itself.

 

 

And for what?

 

The vast majority out there take what's put in mainstream magazines and on YT at face value and don't think to question any of it.

 

In depth research sadly does not seem wanted or appreciated these days.

[atarian1]

Curt still has the old Atari VAXes with the company's internal e-mails so there is probably a ton of information on there that has not been publicly released yet, so yes, it's a viable project. I guess my attitude is "Something is better than nothing..."

 

Just wish he would finish it.

[Lost Dragon]

3 hours ago, atarian1 said:

Curt still has the old Atari VAXes with the company's internal e-mails so there is probably a ton of information on there that has not been publicly released yet, so yes, it's a viable project. I guess my attitude is "Something is better than nothing..."

 

Just wish he would finish it.

I'm basing my concerns on two main factors here.

 

1)The book was I feel annouced too early, showing the cover and talking about what it was going to cover,before securing that essential interview with Jack Tramiel, was i feel something of a mistake and that's not having a pop at the authors of this book,so much as learning from bitter experience having assisted 2 individuals with their books over the last few years.

 

The first,who's publication is i believe in the hands of it's backers now? did a lot of pre-release talk about what it would contain and then 'we' sat back and realised that reviews and interviews promised just were not coming in,content had to be cut etc and from the little i have seen of it,it's not the book i expected it to be in many aspects.

 

The second publication, due spring next year, was worked on over a number of years and has only now been announced. 

 

It's author carried out painstaking work to see what was viable content and who was willing to speak about said content and in what regards and planned content was rewritten and pulled in many a case.

 

New sources came forward with conflicting information, others had a change of heart and did not want their opinions put in print..an awful lot can happen over the course of doing a project of this nature.

 

2)Having been on the receiving end of several internal Atari files thanks to Scott Stilphen and having carried out a good few interviews/investigations into UK and USA based developers, the search for information really is never ending.

 

I wouldn't know where to start,if someone said can you provide us with everything you have on

Hand Made Software or Ringler Studios or Caspain Software or Imagitec Design or High Voltage Software.

 

The documentation from the time,the interviews individuals gave then which conflict with what they said years later and other sources say now.

 

 

The issues surrounding unpaid wages and bonuses...

 

 

That's if people even want to talk to you at all.

 

Ask anyone who was assisting with the exposure of the recent Jane Whittaker (previously Andrew Whittaker) lies, just how risky it is digging into a controversial figures past..

 

That was just one individual 

 

 

The amount of bile and hate over the years i have seen directed at Jack, Sam and Leonard Tramiel (some of it possibly justified, but others now proven to have likes of Leonard used as a convient scapegoat), where do you start in order to try and filter out the personal basis of individuals questioned?. 

 

Even when someone does a docu -style YT video (Guru Larry for example)  and and individual is quoted,someone else from the industry will pop up and say that's only half the story, why didn't you speak to X,Y and Z and ask about..

 

 

When i contacted  aUK based Engineer Sam Tramiel had proclaimed was a key aspect of the Jaguar Duo on behalf of Clint Thompson,it turned out Sam had massively overstated the guys role.

 

Time wasted.

 

Total dead end.

 

If Curt and Marty are experiencing the same, i wouldn't blame them for putting the project on hold whilst it's reworked into something different from it's original concept.

[Lost Dragon]

Just to make myself very clear here.

 

I loved the look of the book cover, exceptionally well done and simply gorgeous. 

 

It is the direction the book was/is going to take that raises some concerns now.

 

Marty said:But we really want to expose people to a lot of the untold stories regarding business decisions, the "human side" of Jack and the people that worked there, those early transition years and the European operations (which many fans in the US don't really know how much more important a role that group played in the history of Atari Corp. other than the STs were more popular there).

 

 

Now surely for that to happen, they needed that interview with Jack and would of also of needed to of spoken with the likes of Les Player,both sadly no longer with us.

 

Les i would hope they did manage to speak with, he was extremely helpful when i spoke briefly with him some years ago over email.

 

As was Bob Katz,Mike Filton,Martin Walker,Jon Dean and Antic Podcast nabbed others from Atari UK..

 

Darryl Still is probably the most interviewed Atari UK person going :-))

 

 

But i am left wondering if they spoke with Bob Gleadow, Peter Staddon and the rest who simply seem to of disappeared once leaving Atari UK.

 

Atari Europe,Operations wise,went far beyond just the UK.

 

was the book going to cover the fall of Atari France? Atari Germany?. 

 

Again there,it throws up a huge list of key figures who need to be found and interviewed. 

 

I just wouldn't be surprised to hear book has been taken back to the drawing board to be reworked based around what material was obtained and is less about Jack Tramiel now.

 

My limited understanding was that a initially reluctant Jack Tramiel had been convinced to give one last interview regarding his time at Atari,as a chance to put the record straight on several key matters, but he passed before it could be undertaken. 

[Clint Thompson]

Guess I hadn't really considered the interviewing part of Jack Tramiel being a lost potential but since this was started in 2014 and Jack had already passed in 2012, thought the information or interview would have already been given or taken place?

 

Suppose the only person that can really shed light on that would be Curt and/or Marty.