Could we do it all over?

[AtariLeaf]

Keatah, you certainly come from a colorful family. Your mom sounds like fun. I might have to look her up!

 

Keatah is 87 years old. Do the math. Are you sure?

[Andromeda Stardust]

^^^ :o !!!

[John_L]

No, you can't. In today's day and age, people consume games by downloading apps into their consoles and mobile devices. A cartridge/console system is outdated, and no one would go to that lengths to recreate the experience. Systems like the flashback are doing well, but that's because modern technology is used to pack in a large set of games, and the systems are easy and simple to setup and use. Even collectors would shy away because the new products would be viewed as a second edition, not original hardware.

[freewheel]

The cartridge era was destroyed when the Boomers' children flocked to Playstations, with their FMV space-filler and multi-minute load times. It's been 20 years since anyone other than us old farts even *wanted* a cartridge-based system.

 

As mentioned already, the only people willing to pay hundreds of dollars for an Atari or NES, regardless of how old/new it is or what it can do, are hipsters. If you think you can make a viable business model out of catering to fads that last on average 18 months, be my guest. The rest of us will happily play along with the probably 30+ million consoles sitting around in attics and basements collecting dust. We've got an insanely healthy homebrew scene for the 2600, hundreds of carts from back in the day published by the tens and hundreds of thousands, wonderful things like the Harmony Cart, Stella in a pinch, and 800 screens to play our games on.

 

I don't mean to shit all over someone's idea, but I really don't understand the point. Especially if you're not going to recreate a CRT television market. 2600 games, and in fact most games of the cartridge era, look like complete trash on a high resolution screen. The graphics of that era were designed with low resolution and scanlines in mind, and they only really look correct under those circumstances. Anything else, and you might as well use emulation and save some money and storage space, because you're already so far away from the original "look and feel".

 

Also, the Flashbacks were "good enough" for 99.999% of the population - hell, the Flashback 2 is good enough for ME - and they were what, $40 including 70-80 games? And we seriously think that at $50 for a single game, not including the console, there's a market? Yeah - it's called the current homebrew market, primarily here at AA. They sell a few dozen, maybe a few hundred copies?

Edited July 20, 2014 by freeweed

[Torr]

... I really don't understand the point...

 

I think I do.

 

I'm assuming he's probably a teen/young 20 something, and he is really into the retro/atari thing but wishes he could actually experience it 'as it was happening' not just reading articles on the internet and watching old ads on youtube.

I can relate, I love Pink Floyd, and I often wonder what it must have been like when they first hit the scene, getting into the albums, waiting for a new one to come out, experiencing the evolution of their sound as each new album came out... maybe even hit a concert...

But I can't, it's done,.. and something like Pink Floyd will never happen again for the same reason something like the Atari won't... it's industry has just changed TOO much

Edited July 20, 2014 by Torr

[freewheel]

I was 3 when Star Wars came out. So while I grew up a Star Wars kid (the merchandising really took a few years to kick off), I never really was around for the initial surprise and hype. The movie was basically part of my life from day one of my memories.

 

But I don't sit around thinking "man, I wish someone could re-do Star Wars and I could re-live that unique moment in history". The closest we've come since is Avatar, and that basically destroyed the movie industry for a decade (bloody 3D gimmick...grrrr). Sometimes it's best to accept history as it is, and not try to re-invent it.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Avatar is a bit overrated, but the visuals were gorgeous. I think it was really the first movie that cleared the uncanny valley. And yes, like it or not, they are making a new Star Wars, recasting old farts and pulling new scripts out of their asses despite the fact the Sith got destroyed for good in Episode VI.

[freewheel]

A new Star Wars movie is more like Sony coming out with the PS4. More of the same, with better technology (plus we're all a little older).

 

This thread is about trying to re-create Star Wars, using 1970s special effects, and trying to pass it off to the masses as something special. Oh, and charging one hell of a markup to come see it - given that you can buy it on DVD for about 10 cents these days.

[Keatah]

The problem with the Flashback units is that few people outside the classic gaming community know what they are. Stick an original, boxed, woody 6-switch 2600 on a shelf in an electrical store and you'll get people buying them because they once owned them. The 2600 would appeal more to today's casual gamers who used to own one in their youth.

 

Another problem with Flashback is the built-in games. If there was a re-release of the original games to support the re-released console, again as originally sold, then it would open up the prospect of people buying them to collect them. This is something you don't get with modern gaming.

 

I'd like to be able to release a series of retro systems that could be sold through stores like Maplin or Firebox, but for third party manufacturers licensing from the likes of Atari would probably be astronomical. It would have to be an Atari manufactured product or manufactured by a third party with deep pockets.

Flashback this, Flashback that.. Pffagghhh. The problems with Flashback are endless. I don't know where to start. And I don't know what Maplin or Firebox are, therefore it is likely I won't purchase anything from those establishments.

 

 

The cartridge era was destroyed when the Boomers' children flocked to Playstations, with their FMV space-filler and multi-minute load times. It's been 20 years since anyone other than us old farts even *wanted* a cartridge-based system.

I'm not sure what killed the cartridge format. But I "believe" it was cost per megabyte and just plain'ol overall capacity. You could get 600MB for pennies as opposed to high-density ROMS (masked or programmable). The novelty, coolness, cheap packaging, capacity, I'm sure that made a difference too.

 

 

The graphics of that era were designed with low resolution and scanlines in mind, and they only really look correct under those circumstances. Anything else, and you might as well use emulation and save some money and storage space, because you're already so far away from the original "look and feel".

Back in the 1970's, the VCS was designed to interface with contemporary display technology of the era. With obsolete CRT's dying off daily, you're basically castrating the final output circuitry of the VCS.

 

Either the television of today has to be modified or the signal source (VCS) has to be modified if you want any authenticity in image output. And even then..

 

This is why I like emulation so much. I've essentially redesigned and replaced the source entirely. I replaced it with something far more suitable for today's display technology. I also gained many new features not available to a real console. Important features. Relevant features. Lifestyle features.

 

And a correctly adjusted emulator is very very good at recreating fuzzy, glowee, scanlined imagery. Imagery that has artifacting, color saturation and bleeding and other NTSC imperfections. That in conjunction with the TV's adjustments and you've got a completely different animal from the lame-O basic software rendering which is hallmarked by sharp edges and vblank tears and other artificial perfection.

 

With emulation you do tend to lose some of the "game inside the picture tube" feel. So to speak. But I'm happy to play geometry correct games without funky pincushion or keystone aberrations. I also like that the games will look consistent 10 years later, without all the flailings of aging capacitors and other CRT parts.

 

As classic gaming continues to evolve into classic emulation (there's no stopping it), you're just observing a new phase of what was begun in the mid-1970's. And you can bet your ass there will be more phases. Who'd have thought of sophisticated emulators back in the day? Ohh maybe the developers, but not us average Joe Shmoes.

 

I'm forever thankful to all the emulator authors for saving me the despair of watching my hardware degrade and die. And even saving the good times.

 

And in the end it's all about the good times, the fun of the games, the challenges, the camaraderie. Isn't it? The coziness on a cold winter's night all snuggled up in your chillout room. Ohhh goooodddy gigittey giddy goo goo goo! BARRROOOOP! BARRROOOOP!

 

 

 

Keatah is 87 years old. Do the math. Are you sure?

Yer'momma's 87 yearz old!!!!!!!!

 

 

I was 3 when Star Wars came out. So while I grew up a Star Wars kid (the merchandising really took a few years to kick off), I never really was around for the initial surprise and hype. The movie was basically part of my life from day one of my memories.

 

But I don't sit around thinking "man, I wish someone could re-do Star Wars and I could re-live that unique moment in history". The closest we've come since is Avatar, and that basically destroyed the movie industry for a decade (bloody 3D gimmick...grrrr). Sometimes it's best to accept history as it is, and not try to re-invent it.

Absolutely right. The modern day emulations and FPGA simulations and stuff are part of the natural evolution of the scene. Unlike in games, you can't really hit the reset button and go back into 1977.

[Andromeda Stardust]

If we all went back to 1977, or 1983, or [insert year here], then we would miss out on all the great games made since. Maybe cause a rift in space-time where the crash never happened, 7800 had Pokey, and beat out the NES. Atari never went out of business and Nintendo fizzled. It'd be Atari vs Sony wars instead of Nintendo. So, instead of constant rehashes of Super Mario Brothers, we're stuck in 2014 playing rehashes of Space invaders and Centipede.

[freewheel]

Atari didn't fizzle due to a poor audio chip, it fizzled because gamers were ready to move onto more complex games. And because they kept releasing their hardware upgrades far too late - basically the opposite of Sega who kept releasing upgrades seemingly every few months in a desperate hope to retain consumer interest. There's a reason the Colecovision sold umpteen consoles even though it was released with the world's worst controller, immediately before the crash.

 

Activision "got" where gaming was headed. Atari did not. Atari also had the chance to distribute the NES in North America - now THAT would have re-written gaming history. We very likely would have seen Sega thrive (I just don't see Atari marketing Mario and Zelda and Metroid and such quite as successfully) and quite possibly Sony would never have entered the picture. A smaller Nintendo may never have ventured into the CD experiment with Sony in the first place. Without a surging SNES, and a Playstation cleaning up the market, Sega would have been a very dominant player.

 

Imagine a world where Sega still makes hardware.

[cybercylon]

Look around the market is still saturated with Atari consoles from thirty years ago.

Absolutely true. Outside a small group of people and some hipsters that want to go through a retro phase (hence classic game stores selling a 2600 for $70 and yellowed SNES for $80), you can't even give this stuff away. Most people don't even care and are happy with their phones etc.

 

Not that I would ever take on such a project, but with all of those consoles still on the market, maybe a more viable solution is to refurbish them back to spec and maybe include a more modern means to hook them up. I know stuff like this has been done on smaller scales already, but outside of that, it is just not going to happen.

 

Maybe emulation as gotten to a point where it is good enough. There have been compilation discs of pre-crash games in the past, but the controllers are ill suited for it as the crappy d-pads don't cut it. Would there be market for something for the exiting generation of consoles and the new generation to make a disc that contains as many games as possible (2600, 5200, 7800, 8-bit) and have them run with a decent emulator? Also include a lot of extras with the histories of the consoles and games, videos and commercials from the time, etc. Lastly, bundle it with a controller that can actually play these games properly but also don't destroy your hands like the originals did in the process. It would save a lot of grief of trying to build new consoles, and you could have your choice of using filters that make these games look like they are being played on and old tube TV or apply whatever you want if you want to clean them up for a modern TV.

 

Alas... I doubt there is even a market for this......

[freewheel]

There's a market, the thing is it's just small. Which is why this market makes do with Flashbacks (for the "real controller" feel), Ouyas and the like for the "modern connections and filters and such" feel, and everything in between. Emulation has been "good enough" for most cart-based consoles for years now. It's why even Nintendo themselves is releasing their classic stuff via emulation, and 99.99% of gamers out there don't even notice a difference. The only people who care about pixel-perfect and sub-note-perfect emulation are here, and we've all got the originals lovingly restored.

 

Realistically, this entire thread is like classic cars. Ford will never, EVER re-release the 1967 Mustang. For the nostalgia crowd, they have the new "classic-inspired" Mustang, which is good enough for most people. And then there's a small handful of fanatics who restore and maintain the originals that are left. And that more than makes up for market demand. The simple fact is that very few people actually want to drive a car based on 1960s technology, just as very few people want to play a video game console based on 1970s technology. The difference is that there are only a few hundred/thousand of the classic cars in good shape - we have literally millions of 2600s still in working condition.

[Mef]

I can see some very good insights in the critical replies to the OT.

 

There is a way, however I can see for a new VCS game to become a major success. That "way" is to find a completly unthinkable idea for a VCS port and make it flesh. Something that would make people wonder - how on earth did you do that! You don't even have to pull out any new gfx gimmicks, nor added cartridge circuitry (which was a kind of a cheat way to overcome console limitations - back in the 80's already!). Just stick with something that is widely reckognisable, make it into Atari 2600 game and show it to the world to compare to the "top" games from the era (flash shitty looking screens from Space Ship, Golf and E.T. for maximum bias!). Imagine this as an extremely inflated sister-case of Halo 2600.

 

This will grant you instant entry to the first pages of all the Indie Gaming blogs and Forums' newsposts, Dailymotion-grade content aggregators, Geek-related blogs and websites, etc.

Mary such incredible domino-like avalanche of sudden exposure with some advertising (Google Ad Sense or whatever) and you've just gotten into top-dollar area! Keep the small-running retail of the carefully hand-soldered collectible carts (with printed booklets and classy box art) of your game, just for the sake of gentlemans' appeal.

 

Win, win - you get fame, hookers and lasers.

In my vision at least.

Take care, and Game On!

Edited July 20, 2014 by Mef

[bkrownd]

 

 

The difference is that there are only a few hundred/thousand of the classic cars in good shape - we have literally millions of 2600s still in working condition.

 

Millions? I know there are millions in landfills.

Edited July 20, 2014 by bkrownd

[freewheel]

 

 

Millions? I know there are millions in landfills.

 

Atari sold somewhere around 30 million of these things. Even if 90% of them are in landfills, there are still millions in existence. And at least from anecdotal experience, I'm shocked at how many people never threw them out. I stumble upon friends who "discovered the old Atari in the attic" every few months it seems.

 

I think people seriously underestimate just how many console units were made. There are certainly far more sitting around in good working condition than there are classic muscle cars. By several orders of magnitude, I'd bet. I live in a city of roughly a million people and I've personally handled several dozen here, without even trying very hard. There are probably thousands in my city alone still sitting around in storage. Heck even in tiny communities of 500 people, I'll stumble upon the odd one at a yard sale from time to time.

[Keatah]

Why can't we all just enjoy a good game of Slot Racers or Surround? All this bickering and backering is to no end.. We all know that emulation is the future of our classics and it is here now.

[AtariLeaf]

Why can't we all just enjoy a good game of Slot Racers or Surround?

 

Because those games suck.

[Keatah]

They didn't suck when they came out.

[freewheel]

No, they still sucked even then. There were better games even in the 70s. And it was a very short time until far, far better games came out for the 2600 (and other computers and consoles).

 

Although I'm biased. Having had an Odyssey in the house since 1974 or so, it took until Space Invaders and Missle Command before I thought anything Atari was doing was much better.

[atarilovesyou]

Of course, such an idea is so far-fetched as to be almost laughable, if I didn't want it to be so true

 

But you know, if someone really REALLY wanted to get a vibe of what's going on in the retro fandom, then why not a Kickstarter?

 

Re-create a brand new VCS, maybe with an added HDMI (or at least component) video output. Paddles, joysticks...but games, hmm...games mean licensing issues, and that's tough.

 

But you'd think with modern technology, you could clone a VCS pretty easily. Kickstart away, I'd buy one and pay up to $150 for it.

 

Has anybody known this to have been tried before? Of course you'd need the know-how, but when you have a team of smart people on it, who knows what could be achieved? Hell, they raised 8 grand for a potato salad recipe and they only had a very basic idea of how they'd get the job done.

 

Keeping it simple...no original box or anything like that, just the system, fully compatible with the old library, and controllers.

[AtariLeaf]

No, they still sucked even then. There were better games even in the 70s. And it was a very short time until far, far better games came out for the 2600 (and other computers and consoles).

 

Although I'm biased. Having had an Odyssey in the house since 1974 or so, it took until Space Invaders and Missle Command before I thought anything Atari was doing was much better.

 

We had a pong unit which I was content with, and my cousins had a VCS. I kinda wanted one but it wasn't until I tried Missile Command at their house and saw Space Invaders on a demo tv in the store to really make me want one. It sure as hell wasn't Surround that captivated me.

[+Atari_Warlord]

The idea I've been mulling in my head my look like this:

 

A base unit a little smaller than the Flashback with HDMI out. More authentic looking with a miniature cartridge slot.

The ability to have wireless controllers as well as the usual ports for wired.

Miniature cartrideges, the size of a SD or Mini SD card, that plug in to the slot and sell for $1 to $3 max. Maybe they come attached to a keychain. There could be some exclusives with some stores to generate traffic. For example, Sears/Kmart could sell a Telegames branded unit as well as all the original games marketed under that brand. Maybe Walmart could have Data Age games, etc. This would be in addition to everyone carrying Atari/Activision games.

 

When the cart is inserted, a menu would pop up to choose a PDF of the manual or go to the game.

I think the key for anything like this to work is to keep it cheap and fun.

 

It's hard to see this being anything more than a niche market , which usually means it will cost too much, like the resergenge of records.

[TemplarXB]

It’s like the Twilight Zone Episode, “Walking Distance”; you can’t ever really go back.

 

Technology (displays for one) has evolved and consumer interests have changed to the point that while you could certainly recreate the VCS, it would never hold the place that in once did in the mass market and I can’t imagine it would be profitable.

 

I don’t think it matters though, because for the people that like classic systems, the Internet provides a venue where we can easily keep the magic alive with homebrews, modified systems, replacement parts, books, etc.

 

I think for the mass market you would have to look ahead with the past in mind. The mobile market, as mos6507 pointed out, is more or less on par with what a vintage 16 Bit system could do. People also play them even at home where a dedicated console with a proper controller and display would offer a better experience. I would think an inexpensive system based on a Genesis for example that you could connect to a modern TV and download games to for a small amount of money and offered some sort of network play / scoreboards could succeed.

[Keatah]

Wow no love for the first 8 (and similar early) cartridges like Air Sea Battle or Casino or even Flag Capture! These were the definitive titles of the era. These titles were the memory makers!