Jaynz Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Third circle of hell, Benny.. third circle of hell! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Well Summer officially starts in less than two weeks, and with the problem securing the SIO ports, I wager that it is unlikely to be ready by then. Just a hunch... Don't stop believin'. Don't stop, it'll soon be here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynxpro Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 And we're talking about an XP for a 1984 home gaming unit.. my point is that Atari would not have had a Yahama chip for the 7800 at all, much less it being a cornerstone component that would delay the unit by several years. Even if they were willing to spend the money, there's just no way that they would justify it for a home console machine. Arcade machines are a completely different beast. Also, the next big revolution in 'home game sound' would be the MIDI standards as adopted by AdLib, and it would be a few years yet before the AdLib standard would catch on and be included in game machines... the SNES generation. You don't know that. Had Atari Inc finished the AMY chip, it could've conceivably made it into some 7800 cartridges. And the AMY probably would've surpassed the capabilities of the YM2151. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Somebody got some chip tune samples of the Yamaha in action? I have no idea what it sounds like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Defender_2600 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Somebody got some chip tune samples of the Yamaha in action? I have no idea what it sounds like. tep392 Dig Dug XM (WIP) (XM Only) YM/Pac-Man Sound Test (WIP) (XM Only) "Okay, now for some fun stuff and this is really cool.... have a listen to this audio, this is a full blown example of the YM2151 Audio on the the XM: YM2151 AUDIO DEMO ON XM MODULE ------------------------ This sound sample was done with some code I'm working on for my Digdug sound upgrade. Groovybee was kind enough to help me test and debug it on his XM setup. The Pac-man sound data (notes and instruments) for the YM2151 where actually ripped from a music program that was released for the Sharp X68000 computer. (TEP392 on Atariage.)" ------------------------ http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/7800/expansion/ Edited June 11, 2015 by Defender_2600 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+rdemming Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 And after Atari Corp couldn't finish the AMY and thus couldn't include it in time for the ST, Yamaha wouldn't sell the YM2151 to Atari Corp for use in the Atari ST computer because it was going to be a competitor to Yamaha's own MSX based MIDI Music Computers. I doubt that the AMY chip was ever considered for the ST. The ST was already in development before Tramiel took over Atari thus the ST designers never knew about the AMY chip. And when Tramiel took over Atari it probably was already too late to incorporate it into the ST design even when the AMY was finished at that time. Besides the YM chip in the ST also acts a printer port and handles the drive/side select signals. Thus if the ST's YM was replaced by the AMY chip they needed another chip for the printer/drive signals as well. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaynz Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 While it's impossible to prove an alternate universe, of course, the fact that NO ONE aside from Commodore started putting advanced sound chips into their game units until the 1990s is pretty telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Some interesting perspectives here. Sega did have as part of their 8-bit Sega Mark III/Japan SMS console: A YM2413 FM chip that adds 9 extra sound channels. Nintendo added different sound chips to their 8-bit Famicom/Japan NES console carts: 1. 2 pulse wave channels with 8 pulse width settings and 1 sawtooth wave channel. 2. A YM2413 derivative that provides 6 channels, 2-operator sound. 3. 2 extra square wave channels and an 8-bit PCM DAC. 4. Configurable 8 extra channels of sound capable of playing waves of varying lengths. Atari though, there is not a chance, even in some 'alternate timeline/change of events', that they could have or would have made available to any of their 8-bit Atari 7800 console carts: A YM2151 FM chip that adds 8 channels, 4-operator sound. Nintendo has a robot with spinning discs and an entire music keyboard synthesizer interfacing with its NES console; however, providing the 7800 with a computer keyboard that the console was originally intended to have, and integrating the SIO interface it was to make usage of, is out of place. Those viewpoints can be perceived as being a tad bit skewed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 While it's impossible to prove an alternate universe, of course, the fact that NO ONE aside from Commodore started putting advanced sound chips into their game units until the 1990s is pretty telling. 1987 for the Sega Mark III console: "The Sega Mark III was redesigned as the Sega Master System for release in other markets. This was mainly a cosmetic revamp; the internals of the console remained largely the same. The redesigned console was itself released in Japan in 1987, but with the features of the FM Sound Unit built in as well as a 3-D glasses port and a built-in Rapid Fire Unit." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynxpro Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I doubt that the AMY chip was ever considered for the ST. The ST was already in development before Tramiel took over Atari thus the ST designers never knew about the AMY chip. And when Tramiel took over Atari it probably was already too late to incorporate it into the ST design even when the AMY was finished at that time. Besides the YM chip in the ST also acts a printer port and handles the drive/side select signals. Thus if the ST's YM was replaced by the AMY chip they needed another chip for the printer/drive signals as well. Robert Actually, it was. Shiraz (sic) Shivji (sic) wanted to include the AMY in the ST. Unfortunately for him - and all of us - the staff who had worked on the AMY in the Atari Inc Advanced Research Lab had left prior to the TTL acquisition of Atari Consumer. The AMY was unfinished and attempts to get it working failed. That's when they decided to punt it off to the 65XEM since they had a very ambitious schedule to get the ST running for CES. They couldn't get it working for the 65XEM and so that product was cancelled and Atari Corp sold the chip and technology to an outside company. The details are over at Atari Museum as well as several other websites. But the point is, had Atari Inc not collapsed, the AMY would've been finished and Atari Coin [Games] would've used it in their arcade games instead of the YM2151. So the AMY would've also found use in Atari Inc's consumer video game and computer products post-1984. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaynz Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Edit: Yeah, that wasn't productive. Edited June 11, 2015 by Jaynz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Christ, Trebor. I can see this is emotionally super important to you. Heaven forbid someone tries to have a discussion over the merits of including a problematic Yahama chip in a product years already delayed while you can point out an obscure, limited release in Japan that few people have even heard of, must less bought and had games for. I'm obviously a terrible and horrible person and should deserve a fate worse than death for DARING to suggest that maybe the Yahama chip isn't worth the trouble. Holy crap, man. Get over yourself. Wow...Are you okay? Nothing "emotionally super important" here - at least from this end. Never stated the merits of a Yahama chip cannot be discussed; rather, showing how the contemporary consoles had it and/or equivalent additions. Wouldn't consider the Sega Mark III (Japanese SMS system), an obscure limited release console, nor ~40 games that were designed to make use of its Yahama chip. Certainly, we can agree to disagree though. For the record, I don't consider you a terrible, horrible person and deserving a fate worse than death - Sorry if you have that perception. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaynz Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 You know, I edited that for a reason... I realized I was reading your posts in the worst possible way and recanted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 You know, I edited that for a reason... I realized I was reading your posts in the worst possible way and recanted. No problem...We don't need to see eye to eye on the matter...It's all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tep392 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Somebody got some chip tune samples of the Yamaha in action? I have no idea what it sounds like. This is a pretty good example. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/162512-pac-man-collection-with-pokey-sound/page-8?do=findComment&comment=2164050 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 In addition to a few 8-bit home computers of the time, there's actually one Famicom cartridge that has an AY-8910 in it, basically the same sound chip as the ST... It was in fact possible to turn the Famicom into a computer with BASIC, a tape drive and keyboard, but it certainly was limited compared to actual computer computers at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tep392 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I don't even know why people are arguing about the Yamaha chip set. The design is done and the chips where purchased a long time ago. There would be no point to taking it out now. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Some interesting perspectives here. Sega did have as part of their 8-bit Sega Mark III/Japan SMS console: A YM2413 FM chip that adds 9 extra sound channels. Nintendo added different sound chips to their 8-bit Famicom/Japan NES console carts: 1. 2 pulse wave channels with 8 pulse width settings and 1 sawtooth wave channel. 2. A YM2413 derivative that provides 6 channels, 2-operator sound. 3. 2 extra square wave channels and an 8-bit PCM DAC. 4. Configurable 8 extra channels of sound capable of playing waves of varying lengths. Atari though, there is not a chance, even in some 'alternate timeline/change of events', that they could have or would have made available to any of their 8-bit Atari 7800 console carts: A YM2151 FM chip that adds 8 channels, 4-operator sound. Nintendo has a robot with spinning discs and an entire music keyboard synthesizer interfacing with its NES console; however, providing the 7800 with a computer keyboard that the console was originally intended to have, and integrating the SIO interface it was to make usage of, is out of place. Those viewpoints can be perceived as being a tad bit skewed. Don't forget about Konami's VRC7 sound chip they implemented in their nes cartridges; well... one nes cartridge... It was a derivative of the 2413 chip. https://youtu.be/drwX7MbB_IE I don't even know why people are arguing about the Yamaha chip set. The design is done and the chips where purchased a long time ago. There would be no point to taking it out now. He's right... I wouldn't change a thing now. Let things just stand as is for now. Edited June 11, 2015 by philipj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I don't even know why people are arguing about the Yamaha chip set. The design is done and the chips where purchased a long time ago. There would be no point to taking it out now.I had brought up feature creep as one of those things causing endless delays. The Yamaha is done, and that's fine. The bigger issue right now is sourcing the required SIO ports. Ideally, Curt should have sourced a nanufacturer, but that's water under the bridge. Now it's a matter of leave the SIO port out or delay indefinitely. IMHO, it would be better at this point to just omit the port and go ahead with production. If those who preordered would have a choice of getting their XM unit now or wating indefinitely for a port that few people are going to use, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of them would take the XM as is. People could source their own plug from scrap hardware if they really wanted to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
78001987 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Wow. This thread reads like a Telemundo Soap Opera crossed with a gear nerd pillow fight. Has this thing really been delayed for 6 years running? Ooofa! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Wow. This thread reads like a Telemundo Soap Opera crossed with a gear nerd pillow fight. Has this thing really been delayed for 6 years running? Ooofa! Uff Da ya mean.There is no debate on the sio port or the YM chip. It is all going in regardless some way some how. Nerd pillow whomp you back! No nooo your analog!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Wow. This thread reads like a Telemundo Soap Opera crossed with a gear nerd pillow fight. Has this thing really been delayed for 6 years running? Ooofa! The Texas Hadron Supercollider got delated for longer... Actually it got canned and Sweden took first prize for discovering the Huggs Bosom, er I meant Higgs Boson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammR25 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Wow. This thread reads like a Telemundo Soap Opera crossed with a gear nerd pillow fight. Has this thing really been delayed for 6 years running? Ooofa! I'd much rather watch Telemundo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Hi everyone, Just wanted to give everyone an update. 1. The source for the SIO connectors can no longer provide them. I put out a request for help on Facebook and have some avenue's I'm looking at. Need to buy them at no more than $1 each, so that makes it a bit tough, but I'm working on things. 2. Mark has been extremely busy and hasn't had a chance to review over things with me recently. Work and paying the bills can sometimes get in the way of our hobby. So I'm sitting tight waiting for him to free up some time. 3. We had a discussion a while ago about perhaps including a built in game into the XM so that when no cartridge is present, instead of just the test/configuration program coming up from the XM, we'd perhaps have a selection to play a built in game that would use many of the XM features. If anyone is interested in submitting a built in game, please email me 7800xm@gmail.com and let's discuss. Thanks, Curt 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Don't forget about Konami's VRC7 sound chip they implemented in their nes cartridges; well... one nes cartridge... It was a derivative of the 2413 chip. https://youtu.be/drwX7MbB_IE He's right... I wouldn't change a thing now. Let things just stand as is for now. Exactly! I have boxes of the YM chips, thats a done deal, I'm not about to change ANYTHING on the design with different ANYTHING. :-) 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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