7800 XM update

[DracIsBack]

thats because Curt didn't originally plan to take pre-order money. Doesn't change the fact that it was originally announced in June 2009, and expected to deliver in August 2009.

Going by what is described in that thread, this was Curt picking up an original design that already existed from Atari during his time there. So really, this project is more like 29 years since inception. LOL

As I said ... I was one of the original pre order folks - I'm quite familiar with the XM history because I was there through it all.

 

My only gripe here is the implication that Curt took money in 2009 and that people have been waiting for it since. It's a reordering of facts that aren't correct

[78001987]

As I said ... I was one of the original pre order folks - I'm quite familiar with the XM history because I was there through it all.

 

My only gripe here is the implication that Curt took money in 2009 and that people have been waiting for it since. It's a reordering of facts that aren't correct

no one in this exchange said or implied Curt took money in 2009. Your gripe is fictitious. No facts were "reordered". The fact is, the project was originally announced in June of 2009, and it was originally claimed that August of 2009 was a potential delivery date. The only person who said anything about money here was you.

 

I remember it because I was here through all of it as well, and even long before it.

 

I also don't appreciate you trying to call me a liar. The thread I linked speaks for itself. I lied about nothing.

[tep392]

no one in this exchange said or implied Curt took money in 2009. Your gripe is fictitious. No facts were "reordered". The fact is, the project was originally announced in June of 2009, and it was originally claimed that August of 2009 was a potential delivery date. The only person who said anything about money here was you.

 

I remember it because I was here through all of it as well, and even long before it.

 

I also don't appreciate you trying to call me a liar. The thread I linked speaks for itself. I lied about nothing.

Who were you in 2009? Just curious.

[Mord]

no one in this exchange said or implied Curt took money in 2009. Your gripe is fictitious. No facts were "reordered". The fact is, the project was originally announced in June of 2009, and it was originally claimed that August of 2009 was a potential delivery date. The only person who said anything about money here was you.

 

I remember it because I was here through all of it as well, and even long before it.

 

I also don't appreciate you trying to call me a liar. The thread I linked speaks for itself. I lied about nothing.

 

Looking back over that thread, Curt's exact words regarding an August launch were "I'll have some initial plastics done by end of July and by that type I should have a fully debugged pcb ready, so I'll have some stuff to show at the end of July and if all looks good, then August would be the target to start shipments." (Bolding mine.)

 

He wasn't promising a delivery date, he was giving us his hopeful projections based on everything going smoothly. And we all know the pcb ended up not being completely ready by then and there were some other unexpected issues that propped up, as well as changes/enhancements which further complicated issues. (The second soundchip for instance wasn't even being talked about at that point, it was only 16k of ram instead of 128k, the expansion ports)

 

In short, nobody was waiting for 7 years. (So that would potentially be a lie.) Well, nobody in their right mind was. People didn't start -waiting- until the preorders were sent off.

 

You didn't lie about this all starting to be discussed in 2009. But the way you word it sends the wrong impression to other people, as Drak said "My only gripe here is the implication that Curt took money in 2009 and that people have been waiting for it since." (Again bolding mine.) That's what you did with your offhand remark. So instead of getting all defensive, just clarify what you meant while making sure to verify you did NOT mean to imply what people picked up from your original statement. That you know Curt didn't take money in 2009.

[DracIsBack]

no one in this exchange said or implied Curt took money in 2009. Your gripe is fictitious. No facts were "reordered". The fact is, the project was originally announced in June of 2009, and it was originally claimed that August of 2009 was a potential delivery date. The only person who said anything about money here was you.

 

I remember it because I was here through all of it as well, and even long before it.

 

I also don't appreciate you trying to call me a liar. The thread I linked speaks for itself. I lied about nothing.

 

No one called you a 'liar'. I'm sorry if you interpreted that way, but it wasn't my intent. Rather, given the history of people bitching about how late the XM is relative to pre-orders being made, I felt it prudent not to cause confusion further by leading people down the path into thinking Curt took money a year earlier than he actually did. That's it, that's all. When people gripe about the XM it's almost assuredly for one of two reasons ... they want to be a killjoy about the value of the project and won't rest until they convince people of their ways (thankfully just a few jerks); or ... that they've been waiting a long time for delivery on a product that they paid for a pre-order of (most of the gripes). Make no mistake - I'm not happy about the time waited either. But I don't want people misinterpreting this thread into assuming we've all been waiting for this since 2009 when we made preorders.

 

There's already enough 'legend' and 'infamy' surrounding this project.

Edited April 24, 2016 by DracIsBack

[phoenixdownita]

Bickering about the fact it was a 7Y project versus 6Y (depending on how you count) although technically correct does not make it look any better.

 

The only thing that is to be said is that Curt went thru a few round of heart surgeries and likely couldn't put any time in the project while at the same time somewhat it was kept alive (the project and thankfully Curt too). Second it seems like the other members of the projects at the time (if you can call them that way) are as responsible and should be called out.

 

In the end it is a project that was somewhat optimistically promised in Aug 2009 (pre-order/money involved or not) and anyone would have accepted a 6 months off-the-mark delay, then somehow scope creep took the lead and with that round of additional delays ....

 

So told none of this should take away from the current contributors any merit, it would be like crying on the spilled milk, it's gone, you can't blame it on the current members, it's just a matter of judging if another year (pure speculation by me) is worth waiting or not. If not and you have a pre-order feel free to sell it here (it happened a few times already anyway).

 

Sad thing is that even if it gets delivered likely it will mostly be remembered for the continuous delays, 7Y is a long time and technology has evolved greatly to the point that there are so many folks in the forums that can come up with cheaper\faster implementation of the same\similar concept (sure maybe without the keyboard support).

 

Give tep time he seems to be updating when he can and he has no issue telling when he is/is NOT working on the project and that's all that's needed.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

He wasn't promising a delivery date, he was giving us his hopeful projections based on everything going smoothly. And we all know the pcb ended up not being completely ready by then and there were some other unexpected issues that propped up, as well as changes/enhancements which further complicated issues. (The second soundchip for instance wasn't even being talked about at that point, it was only 16k of ram instead of 128k, the expansion ports)

Feature creep has killed more projects...

 

Sad thing is that even if it gets delivered likely it will mostly be remembered for the continuous delays, 7Y is a long time and technology has evolved greatly to the point that there are so many folks in the forums that can come up with cheaper\faster implementation of the same\similar concept (sure maybe without the keyboard support).

You bring a good point here with eveolution of tech. Much of what the XM brings to the table can be supplied in homebrews with a standard CPUWIZ board with Hokey/Pokey chip, and the upcoming H2.

 

If I had the choice between an XM and the H2 sitting on a table, and was told to pick one, I would grab the H2 because it supports many of the XM features.

 

I also firmly believe someone would have developed and released a homebrew High Score Cart lock on device (think cut off cart shell with port on top, like a Game Genie) by now if it weren't for all this waiting for the XM. The long wait may have effectively stifled potential innovation for simpler devices that would have been obsoleted by the XM.

[DracIsBack]

In the end it is a project that was somewhat optimistically promised in Aug 2009 (pre-order/money involved or not) and anyone would have accepted a 6 months off-the-mark delay, then somehow scope creep took the lead and with that round of delays ....

 

You're points are valid, though I don't feel like Scope Creep was really a big part of this. To be blunt, I think it's a massive homebrew project and that people bit off more than they could chew ... in terms of complexity, development, cost etc ... for something that's essentially a hobby project done in spare time.

 

Through the years, some jackasses have also felt the need to imply that the hardware was a rendering, the software was photoshop and that it was all an elaborate ruse to steal money.

 

Which it wasn't. And never was. A number of folks at AA have played real games and demos on real hardware. Others have tested games. A lot of effort did go into getting it into even making it this far.

[DracIsBack]

He wasn't promising a delivery date, he was giving us his hopeful projections based on everything going smoothly. And we all know the pcb ended up not being completely ready by then and there were some other unexpected issues that propped up, as well as changes/enhancements which further complicated issues. (The second soundchip for instance wasn't even being talked about at that point, it was only 16k of ram instead of 128k, the expansion ports)

 

Speaking of the RAM, I remember asking a few years back why that amount of memory as that seemed unusual given the spirit of the project (to put 8bit style cartridge enhancements in one package). I remember the answer was that it was actually cheaper at that point to buy RAM in 128K increments instead of 16K.

[78001987]

 

No one called you a 'liar'. I'm sorry if you interpreted that way, but it wasn't my intent. Rather, given the history of people bitching about how late the XM is relative to pre-orders being made, I felt it prudent not to cause confusion further by leading people down the path into thinking Curt took money a year earlier than he actually did. That's it, that's all. When people gripe about the XM it's almost assuredly for one of two reasons ... they want to be a killjoy about the value of the project and won't rest until they convince people of their ways (thankfully just a few jerks); or ... that they've been waiting a long time for delivery on a product that they paid for a pre-order of (most of the gripes). Make no mistake - I'm not happy about the time waited either. But I don't want people misinterpreting this thread into assuming we've all been waiting for this since 2009 when we made preorders.

 

There's already enough 'legend' and 'infamy' surrounding this project.

Nothing I posted was legend, infamy, or "implication". It was a recalling of fact, with a link that bears it out.

 

You can imply that it wasn't a "real" project until pre-order money was put down, but that would be like me implying that the LA Lakers only have 9 Championships because the ones that happened in Minneapolis don't count. As a Boston Celtics fan that might be the timeline I prefer to refer to, but it isn't factual.

[phoenixdownita]

You're points are valid, though I don't feel like Scope Creep was really a big part of this. To be blunt, I think it's a massive homebrew project and that people bit off more than they could chew ... in terms of complexity, development, cost etc ... for something that's essentially a hobby project done in spare time.

That is close to the definition of scope creep, if you add the fact that as the project evolved new stuff got added you get the "scope creep" phenomenon.

 

"Can we do that? Sure. How Long? 2 weeks.

How about that? Sure. How long? 2 weeks.

And that? Sure still another 2 weeks."

 

That's how it goes, no ill intent usually is called for just severely misjudge of the actual cost/effort involved and real life time that can be invested in it, plus each new feature makes the project look more compelling and even more people get interested .... KISS is and has always been the way to go, but it is easy to make the mistake and go big and then go more often than not boom or waaaaaaaaaaaay over time, if you ship it at all that is.

 

Also at a certain point there's no shame in calling it quit, although in this particular case I fear it would have made it even worse.

[DracIsBack]

Nothing I posted was legend, infamy, or "implication". It was a recalling of fact, with a link that bears it out.

 

You can imply that it wasn't a "real" project until pre-order money was put down, but that would be like me implying that the LA Lakers only have 9 Championships because the ones that happened in Minneapolis don't count. As a Boston Celtics fan that might be the timeline I prefer to refer to, but it isn't factual.

 

You continue to miss the point. Since you seem to be one of those people who likes to argue for the sake of arguing, I'll move on. Enjoy arguing whether or not shit is brown with someone else.

[DracIsBack]

That is close to the definition of scope creep, if you add the fact that as the project evolved new stuff got added you get the "scope creep" phenomenon.

 

"Can we do that? Sure. How Long? 2 weeks.

How about that? Sure. How long? 2 weeks.

And that? Sure still another 2 weeks."

 

That's how it goes, no ill intent usually is called for just severely misjudge of the actual cost/effort involved and real life time that can be invested in it, plus each new features makes the project look more compelling and even more people get interested .... KISS is and has always been the way to go, but it is easy to make the mistake and go big and then go more often than not boom or waaaaaaaaaaaay over time, if you ship it at all that is.

 

Also at a certain point there's no shame in calling it quit, although in this particular case I fear it would have made it even worse.

 

I actually think they misjudged the effort for their original minimum viable product even before any features were added.

[78001987]

 

You continue to miss the point. Since you seem to be one of those people who likes to argue for the sake of arguing, I'll move on. Enjoy arguing whether or not shit is brown with someone else.

The point is you called me out, because you disagreed with something I said about the timing of the project's beginning, but what I posted I wasn't wrong.

 

as Phoenixdownwita said, arguing over whether it's 6 or 7 years is kind of pointless, because neither way is it a good look. All I did was make a comment which recalled the actual history of the project. You picked the argument.

[78001987]

That is close to the definition of scope creep, if you add the fact that as the project evolved new stuff got added you get the "scope creep" phenomenon.

 

"Can we do that? Sure. How Long? 2 weeks.

How about that? Sure. How long? 2 weeks.

And that? Sure still another 2 weeks."

 

That's how it goes, no ill intent usually is called for just severely misjudge of the actual cost/effort involved and real life time that can be invested in it, plus each new features makes the project look more compelling and even more people get interested .... KISS is and has always been the way to go, but it is easy to make the mistake and go big and then go more often than not boom or waaaaaaaaaaaay over time, if you ship it at all that is.

 

Also at a certain point there's no shame in calling it quit, although in this particular case I fear it would have made it even worse.

Like the Plumbers in the movie The Money Pit.

 

"How long will all this take?"

 

"Two Weeks!"

[phoenixdownita]

 

I actually think they misjudged the effort for their original minimum viable product even before any features were added.

Possible but scope creep made it so it could delay indefinitely and with reasons at that point.

(Curt health was another giant factor in all of this and cannot be stated enough).

 

Either way my point is that those 6/7Y are gone, let tep take a crack at it and see what comes out.

If people are not inclined to wait (because they are tired of it) they have a way out in that they can sell their stake and find someone to buy it here on this forum, which even if not ideal is better than nothing.

[DracIsBack]

Possible but scope creep made it so it could delay indefinitely and with reasons at that point.

(Curt health was another giant factor in all of this and cannot be stated enough).

 

Either way my point is that those 6/7Y are gone, let tep take a crack at it and see what comes out.

If people are not inclined to wait (because they are tired of it) they have a way out in that they can sell their stake and find someone to buy it here on this forum, which even if not ideal is better than nothing.

 

Agree on all points.

[Zonie]

 

You're points are valid, though I don't feel like Scope Creep was really a big part of this. To be blunt, I think it's a massive homebrew project and that people bit off more than they could chew ... in terms of complexity, development, cost etc ... for something that's essentially a hobby project done in spare time.

 

Through the years, some jackasses have also felt the need to imply that the hardware was a rendering, the software was photoshop and that it was all an elaborate ruse to steal money.

 

Which it wasn't. And never was. A number of folks at AA have played real games and demos on real hardware. Others have tested games. A lot of effort did go into getting it into even making it this far.

I agree with this. It was never a ruse to steal money. If it ever arrives, It will probably never come out of the box. I've lost interest in my game consoles lately, and more than likely will sell my collection in the next few years...

[Jinks]

Possible but scope creep made it so it could delay indefinitely and with reasons at that point.

(Curt health was another giant factor in all of this and cannot be stated enough).

 

Either way my point is that those 6/7Y are gone, let tep take a crack at it and see what comes out.

If people are not inclined to wait (because they are tired of it) they have a way out in that they can sell their stake and find someone to buy it here on this forum, which even if not ideal is better than nothing.

That and once your share is sold or you have no stake in it to begin with. Please do us all a favour and stfu..

[78001987]

That and once your share is sold or you have no stake in it to begin with. Please do us all a favour and stfu..

It really shouldn't matter whether someone has a pre-order or not to be allowed to talk about it.

[Jinks]

It really shouldn't matter whether someone has a pre-order or not to be allowed to talk about it.

Not if all the yammering makes the guys working on it say screw it I quit. Happened before during this project several times.

I guess I do not understand why someone would be interested other wise..

Do we call your bank and ask about your mortgage and discuss the rates and payment options?

So what I am saying this is none of your business. But please talk about it all you want as it somehow is important to you?

Oh and I forgot... your right!!

[+Allan]

Can we have an XM thread that is for discussing trying to get the XM out ONLY. We all know the situation with the XM? We don't need to keep flogging the dead horse. Maybe a new thread that only Tep392 can post to and if somebody has something important to add, they can send a PM to him and he can post it here.

 

And yes I ordered one as well.

 

Allan

Bump!

 

Allan

[78001987]

Not if all the yammering makes the guys working on it say screw it I quit. Happened before during this project several times.

I guess I do not understand why someone would be interested other wise..

Do we call your bank and ask about your mortgage and discuss the rates and payment options?

So what I am saying this is none of your business. But please talk about it all you want as it somehow is important to you?

Oh and I forgot... your right!!

Actually, when you buy a house, that sale and your ownership of said property USA matter of legal public record. How you keep up your house and your yard is of concern to everyone who lives near you. You become a part of a community. And if you default on your mortgage and lose your home, that is also posted as a public record, and it directly affects the value of all your neighbors homes. .

Not really sure why you would think its none of my, or anyone else who didn't preorder's business. It's s publicly announced and presented project.

 

I'm also interested in the H2 project, and the various home brew carts that people make and sell here. Because none of them have asked for pre-order money, does that mean it's none of anyone's business and none of us are allowed to talk about them too?

[CPUWIZ]

IMHO, nobody has a leg to stand on, complaining about something they have no investment in.

[78001987]

IMHO, nobody has a leg to stand on, complaining about something they have no investment in.

i don't really see a lot of actual complaining about the XM in this thread over at least the last few pages.

 

It's an cool tech project, which subsequently has yielded an interesting psychological study. Watching how people react to the ongoing saga of its development makes for great reading and occasional commenting.