A8 ATX motherboard?

[gozar]

The C64 is getting a replacement motherboard, the A8 should be next. :-)

 

Include 1090XL compatible slots, some form of DVI/VGA out (through a built in VBXE interface), and Ultimate 1Mb. Unfortunately, all I can do is post links and make outrageous requests.

[bbking67]

Yup just provide sockets for some 30 pin SIMMs (DRAM) and sockets for the various components--BIOS, ANTIC, POKEY, CPU, etc.

 

A cartridge/PBI extender would be useful to give them access to the backplate along with the video and other bits. I'd stick with a strictly retro motherboard... maybe room for tons of memory though. 30 pin SIMMs are easy to get and the right general speed and type of memory.

 

My idea would be to keep it pretty retro... nothing too outlandish--almost something that could have existed in 1984. Not Orwell's 1984 mind you, but the actual one.

Edited July 31, 2014 by bbking67

[gozar]

SRAM would be a better solution, put 1MB right on the motherboard. No worrying about refresh and all that. Wasn't there a mock up floating around somewhere of a A8 motherboard in a SF351 ST Floppy case?

[gozar]

Oh, and a PS/2 keyboard interface and a socket for dual pokeys.

[candle]

not exacly a mockup

[bbking67]

SRAM would be a better solution, put 1MB right on the motherboard. No worrying about refresh and all that. Wasn't there a mock up floating around somewhere of a A8 motherboard in a SF351 ST Floppy case?

 

Okay, SRAM is fine so long as it is removable...

[AtariNerd]

This might be of interest. Someone already went about trying to reduce the 5200 motherboard to the smallest footprint they were able, using mostly original ICs, apart from a newer memory chip, new logic and newer, smaller resisters, capacitors,etc; most of which are small enough to fit under the ICs themselves. This allowed him to reroute the traces in a very efficient way. Of course, this doesn't include the extra I/O of the computer systems. One could include that on a seperate board attached through a DB25, or similar. Or have the board be plugable itself into an interface adapter.

 

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/185369-compact-5200-system/?hl=%20mini%20%205200

[Rybags]

Why would you want to remove SRAM?

 

The obvious is configuration options like Ultimate 1 Meg. The only stumbling block is that the common 1 Meg upgrades are all actually 1088K since they assume pre-existing 64K built in.

 

What would be cool is DMA-based I/O capability, since Refresh cycles become redundant with SRAM. Have a system where Antic Refresh cycles can either act as normal, be given back to the CPU or be used as IO slots.

 

Assume an overall average of 8 slots per scanline, that gives potential for over 120K/second IO rate.

[foft]

Assume an overall average of 8 slots per scanline, that gives potential for over 120K/second IO rate.

With modern sram can do 16 writes in one antic refresh slot... Giving more like 1 1/5 MB/s. Though if using that could do 15 transfers every cycle, giving >50MB/s with a 16-bit chip:)

 

The motherboard could have an option to cannibalize an Atari for custom chips and also we could build some new pin compatible ic boards. These could also slot into a real Atari too.

 

If the MMU on the board if some kind of gate array, could use an oversized one (with extra io to all special chip pins) allowing it to implement any chips not plugged in;)

[+Larry]

A neat project for the 64, and a very interesting A8 idea -- but some economic realities...

 

If folks will only occasionally spend $40 for a new XL mobo -or- $70 for a an XE mobo, how many would spend $200 - $300 (or more) for a new mobo?

 

$15 will get you a nice little 5VDC switching power supply to use with your XL/XE.

 

You always have the issues of using a PC keyboard with an Atari. Some nice labeling might go a long way to alleviating the issues.

 

This is a bit like Chuck Steinmen's 90's idea to put a size/complexity-reduced A8 on a PC backplane card. I think his idea still has some merit. (although modern cards have gotten a lot smaller.)

 

-Larry (aka "Scrooge")

[+MrFish]

This is a bit like Chuck Steinmen's 90's idea to put a size/complexity-reduced A8 on a PC backplane card. I think his idea still has some merit. (although modern cards have gotten a lot smaller.)

 

I like this idea better too.

 

There was an Atari emulator in PC DOS where the author actually made an ISA card with a POKEY on it in order to get around the issues of innacurate POKEY emulation, which I thought was a good idea. He posted simple schematics for making the board for use with his emulator. I think I still have the link to his site somewhere...

Edited July 31, 2014 by MrFish

[+MrFish]

...Of course you'd need some kind of breakout cable/connector for access to the ECI/PBI, SIO, and cartridge ports.

 

One good benefit is that you wouldn't need an SIO2PC anymore, or any SIDE-type carts or hard drives.

Edited July 31, 2014 by MrFish

[ricortes]

Much as I would like it, I'm with Larry on the market for such a build. It's a pretty steep hill to climb when your fan base already has ~a real Atari, meg of memory, built in HD, and flash cart...

 

For expanding the market, it has to be one heck of a kit for people that don't own one to run out and spend a couple of hundred bucks. I mean the thing would have to cook your dinner and babysit your kids! There's just too much competition out there. Last PC mb I bought was 2 gigs of RAM, 2.3 GHz processor for $5.95. There's that perception of value: Which would I rather have one Atari or 50 of those MBs, that is hard to overcome.

 

Right now among my small circle of friends and family, $200-300 to spend means a newer cellphone. Spending that money on a retro computing platform is not on the 'things I need to buy' table.

[KLund1]

Much as I would like it, I'm with Larry on the market for such a build. It's a pretty steep hill to climb when your fan base already has ~a real Atari, meg of memory, built in HD, and flash cart...

 

For expanding the market, it has to be one heck of a kit for people that don't own one to run out and spend a couple of hundred bucks. I mean the thing would have to cook your dinner and babysit your kids! There's just too much competition out there. Last PC mb I bought was 2 gigs of RAM, 2.3 GHz processor for $5.95. There's that perception of value: Which would I rather have one Atari or 50 of those MBs, that is hard to overcome.

 

Right now among my small circle of friends and family, $200-300 to spend means a newer cellphone. Spending that money on a retro computing platform is not on the 'things I need to buy' table.

 

Good points, but with some good 'advertising' and a good ramp up and show in a blog how the progress is going, it might be able to be done.

Case and point, look at the history of the Atari Coldfire FireBee ST clone that came out a few years ago. It cost about $1000 each and they sold them all, and are still in active support of them. That started out just like this idea., and had a few very committed people that grew into a larger group that made a real agreement to follow through, like a second job without pay, and see it all the way to completion and beyond. It can be done.

[The Usotsuki]

Well, if there's one plus for the A8, it's got a clean substitute firmware that works on metal, right? As I believe the Altirra replacement firmware works on metal, at least?

[+bob1200xl]

Much as I would like it, I'm with Larry on the market for such a build. It's a pretty steep hill to climb when your fan base already has ~a real Atari, meg of memory, built in HD, and flash cart...

 

For expanding the market, it has to be one heck of a kit for people that don't own one to run out and spend a couple of hundred bucks. I mean the thing would have to cook your dinner and babysit your kids! There's just too much competition out there. Last PC mb I bought was 2 gigs of RAM, 2.3 GHz processor for $5.95. There's that perception of value: Which would I rather have one Atari or 50 of those MBs, that is hard to overcome.

 

Right now among my small circle of friends and family, $200-300 to spend means a newer cellphone. Spending that money on a retro computing platform is not on the 'things I need to buy' table.

 

 

But, you know... the 'fan base' does have all those nice additions to their 8-bits. But, what's the next level? What do they have to spend their money on?

 

Internal, mini-1090, the 1090Q? (1/4 sized)

 

VGA 1090Q card?

 

Dual POKEY/ digitizer 1090Q card?

 

HDD/CF 1090Q card?

 

Ethernet/USB 1090Q card?

 

 

Cramming all those kinds of things inside a regular Atari is a mess or outright impossible. Hanging them on the PBI is limited and cluttered. With a new motherboard and a pumped up case, it all can come together. The main board can house big memory, a 14mhz 65816, and lots of flash space, along with all the Atari legacy stuff. The rest goes in a 1090Q card.

 

Look at the 1090 motherboard on the left. It is mostly power supply - not needed. Look at the size of a 1090 card - way larger than we need with modern circuits. In a 1450XLD style case, the 1090Q cards can go in one drive bay and a disk drive can go in the other. Set your flat-screen VGA monitor on the top and you're off to the races.

 

Bob

 

[+Larry]

Thanks for the pic! Wow -- look at the size of those boards! I never saw them before, and that is sure different from what I envisioned. I always thought it was something about the size of a tall 1050 drive (not even nearly so big as an 815). What was I thinking?

 

So right after you finish the XL14...

 

-Larry

[ricortes]

 

 

But, you know... the 'fan base' does have all those nice additions to their 8-bits. But, what's the next level? What do they have to spend their money on?

 

Internal, mini-1090, the 1090Q? (1/4 sized)

 

VGA 1090Q card?

 

Dual POKEY/ digitizer 1090Q card?

 

HDD/CF 1090Q card?

 

Ethernet/USB 1090Q card?

 

 

Cramming all those kinds of things inside a regular Atari is a mess or outright impossible. Hanging them on the PBI is limited and cluttered. With a new motherboard and a pumped up case, it all can come together. The main board can house big memory, a 14mhz 65816, and lots of flash space, along with all the Atari legacy stuff. The rest goes in a 1090Q card.

 

Look at the 1090 motherboard on the left. It is mostly power supply - not needed. Look at the size of a 1090 card - way larger than we need with modern circuits. In a 1450XLD style case, the 1090Q cards can go in one drive bay and a disk drive can go in the other. Set your flat-screen VGA monitor on the top and you're off to the races.

 

Bob

 

DSC01361.JPG

 

It would work, but you still have that portion of the fan base that will say ~I already have an original Atari 400 that plays Pac Man, why would I buy this? Ditto for the people running under emulation, much of the functionality is there for them in that the emulators have 65816 instruction set and ability to go turbo mode.

 

Just an opinion, like there is anything that isn't it would really take something beyond great and beyond cheap. The connectors alone on a low volume product would probably cost a fortune. For me it would take something like one of those cheap built in everything Intel/AMD motherboards with an adapter you could plug a 65816 into would be enough to get me excited. For example http://www.frys.com/product/6908617#detailed

 

*IF* there was a bridge circuit that would allow a 65816 to plug directly into the AMD socket on something like that, it would be worth a couple of hundred bucks to me. This has been done before with the 68000 and I don't think it was hugely successful. Steve Ciarcia did one in Circuit Cellar for Byte Magazine back in the day.

 

But you end up with a system that supports VGA, HDMI, USB, SATA HD, couple of gigs of memory, sound chip, keyboard, mouse, and all the other goodies. It wouldn't run Pac Man and wouldn't have anything Atari in it, so I have just offended 90% of the user base.

 

I haven't really thought it through. For instance a discontinued $10 MB while attractive is probably a bad idea. It would be better to get something a little more current or at least not discontinued. That Byte article was probably 30 years ago so I can't remember many details. I love I/O so an enhanced printer port would be nice.

 

Kind of a pipe dream on my part. A date with Marilyn Monroe kind of thing.

Edited August 1, 2014 by ricortes

[ricortes]

I may have been combining memories a bit. In addition to the Circuit Cellar stuff I found

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/peripheralTechnology/PT68K4/pdf/PT68K-2_Brochure.pdf

 

Which is closer to my recollections. I think he is still around<Peter Stark?> and doing business. Heck, if he is still alive, he is probably older then us! It isn't that different from what Chuck Stienman planned, just not enough interest from the public to get these type of products in wide spread use. I only mention the older efforts in the interest of signal compatibility with the Intel 86/88 type buss. If we could throw a couple of grand at Peter he may be willing to do another run of boards, but i would still prefer something a little more current.

[Muzz73]

An ATX board that took original Atari chips would be pretty cool, but until that happens, I grabbed a couple of 800XL motherboards, a new keyboard and a new/rebuildable PSU from Best, hoping that I'll be set for another 30 years (or as close as I can get to it).

[gozar]

(Not that I have the finances or technical skills to pull this off...)

 

My ramblings:

This should be viewed as strictly a replacement motherboard with 5 slots with a couple of additions.

1. Flashable OS with built-in SDX and RTC
2. 1 MB SRAM (items 1 & 2 mimics the U1M)
3. SDX cartridge compatible cartridge port, allowing stackable carts and SDX the ability to turn the cart port off and on
4. Additional POKEY socket that could be used for stereo (but not required for operation)
5. IDE
6. Built in 80 cols (XEP compatible)

Nothing new with those ideas, and compatible with everything out there (XEP80 required for 80 columns).

 

For input, put a socket on board for an Arduino to provide a USB interface to keyboards, mice, and game controllers. Tie the GPIO pins (through a level convertor and other magical electronic pieces :-) into the POKEY and PIA and you should be able to use USB HID in any program. You'd still want to keep the two joystick ports for paddles. The Arduino should be able to emulate a multijoy interface too.

 

I don't know what would go into the slots, maybe an ethernet card... I don't think advanced graphics (with the exception of 80 cols) would be necessary. I'd hate to not have the slots, just in case. :-) Could one or two slots be ECI slots?

 

The Commodore guy designed the C64 board in two months, and had a board back from manufacturing in 3. He predicts his board will cost around ~$200. Adding a U1M, Side2, and stereo POKEY costs about $140. Bob1200XL posted that a replacement 1200XL board (4 layer, 5x7) would be $25 in quantities of 100.

 

Just some wishful thinking... With the IDE+ in my 800XL I'm pretty content with my machine as is, the only thing I'm really missing is an 80 column mode.

[Innovative Leisure]

 

 

But, you know... the 'fan base' does have all those nice additions to their 8-bits. But, what's the next level? What do they have to spend their money on?

 

Internal, mini-1090, the 1090Q? (1/4 sized)

 

VGA 1090Q card?

 

Dual POKEY/ digitizer 1090Q card?

 

HDD/CF 1090Q card?

 

Ethernet/USB 1090Q card?

 

 

Cramming all those kinds of things inside a regular Atari is a mess or outright impossible. Hanging them on the PBI is limited and cluttered. With a new motherboard and a pumped up case, it all can come together. The main board can house big memory, a 14mhz 65816, and lots of flash space, along with all the Atari legacy stuff. The rest goes in a 1090Q card.

 

Look at the 1090 motherboard on the left. It is mostly power supply - not needed. Look at the size of a 1090 card - way larger than we need with modern circuits. In a 1450XLD style case, the 1090Q cards can go in one drive bay and a disk drive can go in the other. Set your flat-screen VGA monitor on the top and you're off to the races.

 

Bob

 

DSC01361.JPG

Hey Bob. What are the cap values on your 1090?

Edited August 27, 2014 by Innovative Leisure

[pixelmischief]

Of course a replacement board would be best. But what might also be useful is an adapter board.

 

An ATX compliant form adapter board that a real A8 main-board could slide onto, rerouting the IO ports into the right physical locations for ATX, such that an A8 could be re-cased into an ATX case and use a standard ATX power supply would be fantastic. If it could also split the SIO so there were both internal and external connectors, that would be excellent. Then, if an additional mount for the floppy drive controller board could be made, the 5.25" drives could be slot mounted. Maybe cartridge to the front? External keyboard adapter?

 

POW!! Atari PC.

[peteym5]

We can go on for months suggesting all the possible upgrades, as long as by default it runs standard Atari 8-bit software at normal speed. I am sure people are thinking 65816 with megabytes of ram running many times the speed of a standard Atari. Add VBXE, Covox, duel Pokeys, etc. The bottom line, how many people will want one and still want to play Atari games for years to come. We already have someone doing a FPGA Atari 8-bit.

[+kheller2]

I would buy, right off the bat, two things:

 

1. A new tech board that would fit into existing XL/XE cases but provided for the addition of expansions as previously mentioned. All socketed. I should be able to take my existing main IC's swap them into this new board and when I wanted to add 256K or 1G the slots are there to do so. This provides me the ability to continue to hack away with historical mods but also add new ones as time goes by. It has to be simple enough to hack an upgrade into the circuitry and consumer enough to plop a chip in.

 

2. 1450XLD style case that allowed for the installation of the board above or 800XL/130XE boards with slight modifications, and cramming in a 1050 drive or two and its board. I'm not trying to build a 1450XLD, just use the case to cram existing boards into it.

 

I have several motherboards with no plastics that I would love to just do a drop in to a era styled case. I've done my share of MIOs, XF551s and 130XE boards into a PC tower case. I'd like to do that with original styled plastics. And I am aware of how expensive and impractical it would be to make said molds. But still...