sd cartridge for 7800?

[Andromeda Stardust]

Bentley is awesome, but it's like NES Battletoads hard, though!

"Battletoads hard?"

[7800]

So... It would seem that because there are so many 7800 variations out there, it is one of the main reasons why it's difficult to get this thing working 100%. ???

 

Does this make sense or am I stating the obvious?

 

I have an Everdrive for almost every other system I own, NES, SNES, Megadrive, etc. They all work awesomely and I don't recall reading about any development issues for them.

[tep392]

So... It would seem that because there are so many 7800 variations out there, it is one of the main reasons why it's difficult to get this thing working 100%. ???

 

Does this make sense or am I stating the obvious?

 

I have an Everdrive for almost every other system I own, NES, SNES, Megadrive, etc. They all work awesomely and I don't recall reading about any development issues for them.

There are already several flash cart solutions out there that have not had this problem on the 7800, including Harmony. I think Fred unfortunately stumbled upon some yet to be understood compatibility issue with the 7800.

[Trebor]

I have an Everdrive for almost every other system I own, NES, SNES, Megadrive, etc. They all work awesomely and I don't recall reading about any development issues for them.

 

Everdrive N8 Problem - Error 40 and blue screen issues

Everdrive N8 that works great with PAL NES - original av modded Famicom has stability issues

Everdrive N8 - Problem with CHR SRAM on the cart.

 

Super Everdrive - Randomly getting ERRORx065

 

Mega Everdrive Problems

 

Just a few found with a simple Google search.

 

Indeed, the 7800 can be a finicky beast though. Please keep in mind patience and cooperation, along with constructive testing is what will continue to move things in the right direction.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

 

Everdrive N8 Problem - Error 40 and blue screen issues

Everdrive N8 that works great with PAL NES - original av modded Famicom has stability issues

Everdrive N8 - Problem with CHR SRAM on the cart.

 

Super Everdrive - Randomly getting ERRORx065

 

Mega Everdrive Problems

 

Just a few found with a simple Google search.

 

Indeed, the 7800 can be a finicky beast though. Please keep in mind patience and cooperation, along with constructive testing is what will continue to move things in the right direction.

 

Don't forget how the TurboED didn't like most region mods either. And I believe I've heard of that the TurboED v2 still has some issues with this as well.

 

Honestly, the fact that any of these kinds of carts can and do exist and work in any real capacity is amazing to me! Then again it blows my mind that we can easily store more data on an SD card than a standard Blu-Ray disc these days.

Edited December 15, 2016 by -^Cro§Bow^-

[78001987]

There are already several flash cart solutions out there that have not had this problem on the 7800, including Harmony. I think Fred unfortunately stumbled upon some yet to be understood compatibility issue with the 7800.

The is not entirely accurate. CC2 went through a thorough testing/beta round before it was sold, and it still isn't 100% compatible with some of the newer homebrews, though that could likely be resolved with new banking scheme files.

 

the Mateos cart isn't compatible with the current version of Bentley and DKXM roms that are floating around the forums. it requires alternate versions, from what I hear.

 

The XM still isn't released because of compatibility issues.

 

There are definitely more compatibility problems with Concerto than the others, for sure. But in general, the 7800 is a fickle beast with several variations of difficult behavior.

[tep392]

The is not entirely accurate. CC2 went through a thorough testing/beta round before it was sold, and it still isn't 100% compatible with some of the newer homebrews, though that could likely be resolved with new banking scheme files.

 

the Mateos cart isn't compatible with the current version of Bentley and DKXM roms that are floating around the forums. it requires alternate versions, from what I hear.

 

The XM still isn't released because of compatibility issues.

 

There are definitely more compatibility problems with Concerto than the others, for sure. But in general, the 7800 is a fickle beast with several variations of difficult behavior.

The Mateos cart wasn't designed to support Bentley and DKXM. That's not at all what we are talking about here so can't be called a compatibility problem with 7800. Only a few XM's have been built so there's not enough data to make any conclusion on it's compatibility. I don't recall it failing on any machines either. I'm not trying to argue that the 7800 doesn't have issues. I was just responding to 7800's comment that the machine variations might be the problem. There are designs out there that have proven to not be sensitive to these variations.

[78001987]

The Mateos cart wasn't designed to support Bentley and DKXM. That's not at all what we are talking about here so can't be called a compatibility problem with 7800. Only a few XM's have been built so there's not enough data to make any conclusion on it's compatibility. I don't recall it failing on any machines either. I'm not trying to argue that the 7800 doesn't have issues. I was just responding to 7800's comment that the machine variations might be the problem. There are designs out there that have proven to not be sensitive to these variations.

Totally true. I think maybe some of the issues with concerto are somewhere related to design, but it was designed with trying to keep cost as low as possible. IT would suck if more expensive components or a redesign were needed to get it behaving properly.

[78001987]

The Mateos cart wasn't designed to support Bentley and DKXM. That's not at all what we are talking about here so can't be called a compatibility problem with 7800.

as to this specifically - they aren't compatible with Concerto 100% either. no Pokey sound. That's not so much a design issue on Concerto's end, since Ballblazer, Commando. Froggie, Pac-MAn Collection Pokey, etc. all work fine with Concerto.

 

I was trying to see if there was some common ground with those games pokey imprelentation, rather than a 7800 compatibility issue or concerto design hiccup.

[tep392]

as to this specifically - they aren't compatible with Concerto 100% either. no Pokey sound. That's not so much a design issue on Concerto's end, since Ballblazer, Commando. Froggie, Pac-MAn Collection Pokey, etc. all work fine with Concerto.

 

I was trying to see if there was some common ground with those games pokey imprelentation, rather than a 7800 compatibility issue or concerto design hiccup.

The POKEY is located at $4000 on the commercial games Ballblazer and Commando. Any game that is less than 32k or uses bank switching to keep everything above $8000 can also successfully use POKEY at $4000. Froggie and Beefdrop are examples of this. It appears this implementation works on the Concerto. Bentley and DKXM both have ROM at $4000 so POKEY needed to be relocated. $450 was chosen since it is available, and is consistent with the old XBOARD design. I don't have any details on how Fred implemented POKEY on Concerto and if it is consistent with the XBOARD implementation. The demo of DKXM that I posted actually writes to both $4000 and $450 so that it will work on XM compliant hardware and in emulation on Prosystem which only supports $4000. But the $4000 won't work in hardware unless it is designed to correctly enable the ROM or POKEY depending on the state of the R/~W line. I doubt Fred would have done this it would be an oddball configuration.

[Trebor]

Honestly, the fact that any of these kinds of carts can and do exist and work in any real capacity is amazing to me!...

 

Indeed. It was well worth the testing, trial and error to discover a particular issue I had with a NES flash cart, which was needing the right CF card (Dane Elec), that works beautifully with my PowerPak. Truly amazing to have these flash carts working as they do.

 

 

...There are designs out there that have proven to not be sensitive to these variations.

 

Great point...Design including right hardware/software (firmware) combination is key.

 

One of the major factors as to why the Cuttle Cart 2 was discontinued is one component was no longer manufactured and there was no acceptable substitute. Once the right combination is "unlocked" for the Concerto, we will all be happy campers gamers.

 

It would be fantastic if it ultimately entails only a firmware update to the current utilized hardware out there.

[78001987]

imprelentation,

Also, I have no idea what happened here. Either my fingers tried to invent a new word, or my brain is having compatibility issues with my keyboard. I think I need new firmware.

[7800]

 

Everdrive N8 Problem - Error 40 and blue screen issues

Everdrive N8 that works great with PAL NES - original av modded Famicom has stability issues

Everdrive N8 - Problem with CHR SRAM on the cart.

 

Super Everdrive - Randomly getting ERRORx065

 

Mega Everdrive Problems

 

Just a few found with a simple Google search.

 

Indeed, the 7800 can be a finicky beast though. Please keep in mind patience and cooperation, along with constructive testing is what will continue to move things in the right direction.

 

Fair enough, but I own most of the Everdrives and have never, ever had a compatibility problem or any other issue with them. I play them all on the Japanese systems though so... not sure if that has anything to do with it... or maybe it's just luck.

[+batari]

Hi all,

 

I have not been able to work on Concerto lately. It's been a profoundly bad year for many reasons but I won't get into that now. I have high hopes for 2017 though!

 

Anyway, I really appreciate this consistency checker thing... I think this is saying the issues might have been with loading games into the cart memory all along. These are things that a firmware update should be able to fix, as I can control the write timing to RAM if that is what it is. I just need to find the time and to dive into the code with a clear head.

 

Anyway, what I would like to know is, um... is the inconsistency consistent? Like, if you check the same game a second time while it is still running does it yield the same results?

[RevEng]

Anyway, what I would like to know is, um... is the inconsistency consistent? Like, if you check the same game a second time while it is still running does it yield the same results?

Yes, according to reports the inconsistency is consistent. The integrity test actually runs continuously, over and over all of the rom pages while you remain on the test screen. The red areas were reported to not change during any one session.

 

The only time the red areas changed is when the console was powered off between tests and the utility cart rom was loaded again.

[Andromeda Stardust]

The XM still isn't released because of failures of universal proportion issues.

Fixed that for you. The less said about XM, the better...

 

Batari shipped the Concerto out the door, and while it is still technically in beta phase, I applaud him on his efforts. This will be an amazing piece of kit once the ROM corruption issues are ironed out and a bit more polish added to the system menu. I now have a flash cart for every cartridge system I own, pre-DS!

 

One of the major factors as to why the Cuttle Cart 2 was discontinued is one component was no longer manufactured and there was no acceptable substitute. Once the right combination is "unlocked" for the Concerto, we will all be happy campers gamers.

Mind if I ask what component this was?

[Trebor]

Mind if I ask what component this was?

 

It was actually a two-fold issue. First, the FPGA being utilized was old then (Spring 2004) and was no longer supported. Chad mentioned it was not supported by Xilinx's webpack, specifically. Going to a newer part was not an option, due to sticking strictly with 5 volt inputs. Chad saw a lot of out of spec stuff when looking through a scope, and while there was no problem with 5v parts, the risk he felt was too great with 5v 'tolerant' parts. Additionally, lower voltage parts were not TTL compatible and required translators on the bus - taking up board space and requiring a redesign.

 

Second, the MMC socket utilized was discontinued. Although replacement was a possibility, it would have needed to meet the criteria of being inexpensive, available in small quantities, and an equivalent form factor or extremely close. Even if that could be met, per Chad, it would still have likely required new board artwork associated with setup costs, and a new solder paste stencil.

[78001987]

Yes, according to reports the inconsistency is consistent. The integrity test actually runs continuously, over and over all of the rom pages while you remain on the test screen. The red areas were reported to not change during any one session.

 

The only time the red areas changed is when the console was powered off between tests and the utility cart rom was loaded again.

Here's a bit of a hint for you: I have two nearly identical 7800's - A1 series serial numbers.

 

one is modded with the Easier Composite video mod, and has the Capacitor removed for the infamous kludge circuit that breaks Robot Tank/Space Shuttle, etc. When I run the integrity test on that one, I get all greens, across the board. However, this is the one that will not play Alien Brigade or Basketbrawl, no matter what.

 

The other is 100% stock. RF output, and kludge circuit Capacitor intact. This one - I get the similar red blocks to the below image, and it works with Basketbrawl, and will take a few tries, but has also worked with Alien Brigade.

 

Maybe the infamous 2600 Dark Chambers compatibility timing circuit is playing hell with the Concerto, and maybe, it wasn't JUST for 2600 Dark Chambers, but for a few games with timing issues?

 

http://atariage.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=481301

[78001987]

My tester POKEY chip has arrived! I will post results tonight, if possible.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

It was actually a two-fold issue. First, the FPGA being utilized was old then (Spring 2004) and was no longer supported. Chad mentioned it was not supported by Xilinx's webpack, specifically. Going to a newer part was not an option, due to sticking strictly with 5 volt inputs. Chad saw a lot of out of spec stuff when looking through a scope, and while there was no problem with 5v parts, the risk he felt was too great with 5v 'tolerant' parts. Additionally, lower voltage parts were not TTL compatible and required translators on the bus - taking up board space and requiring a redesign.

 

Second, the MMC socket utilized was discontinued. Although replacement was a possibility, it would have needed to meet the criteria of being inexpensive, available in small quantities, and an equivalent form factor or extremely close. Even if that could be met, per Chad, it would still have likely required new board artwork associated with setup costs, and a new solder paste stencil.

I really don't understand why they don't make micros with 5V logic anymore. I mean, they still make the same 74xx series DIP chips they made 40 years ago with virtually no change to manufacture process or packaging, and they are all 5V compatible. USB still runs at a solid 5V and I don't see that getting replaced anytime soon...

 

I imagine it requires really complex and bastardized circuitry to try and engineer a bi-directional bus between 5V and 3.3V logic and cram it in a tiny cart shell.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Here's a bit of a hint for you: I have two nearly identical 7800's - A1 series serial numbers.

 

one is modded with the Easier Composite video mod, and has the Capacitor removed for the infamous kludge circuit that breaks Robot Tank/Space Shuttle, etc. When I run the integrity test on that one, I get all greens, across the board. However, this is the one that will not play Alien Brigade or Basketbrawl, no matter what.

 

The other is 100% stock. RF output, and kludge circuit Capacitor intact. This one - I get the similar red blocks to the below image, and it works with Basketbrawl, and will take a few tries, but has also worked with Alien Brigade.

 

Maybe the infamous 2600 Dark Chambers compatibility timing circuit is playing hell with the Concerto, and maybe, it wasn't JUST for 2600 Dark Chambers, but for a few games with timing issues?

 

http://atariage.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=481301

Do you think it's possible to mod a 7800 to use a toggle switch to enable/disable the "kludge" circuit? Flick the switch and try again if game X doesn't load on the first try. If such a circuit also fixed/broke the Concerto on a single 7800 system, that would narrow down the issue I think.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Do you think it's possible to mod a 7800 to use a toggle switch to enable/disable the "kludge" circuit? Flick the switch and try again if game X doesn't load on the first try. If such a circuit also fixed/broke the Concerto on a single 7800 system, that would narrow down the issue I think.

I believe a capacitor is pretty much all that you remove to disable the timing circuit right? So..I would think a SPST switch is all that would be needed to either be on or off. Just attach the switch off the cut leg of the capacitor on one end and the point where the capacitor attached to the 7800 main logic on the other end of the switch?

[toiletunes]

I think it's awesome how the community is pulling together for troubleshooting on this. Thank you everyone!

[Trebor]

Maybe the infamous 2600 Dark Chambers compatibility timing circuit is playing hell with the Concerto, and maybe, it wasn't JUST for 2600 Dark Chambers, but for a few games with timing issues?

Batari dived into the timing circuit in 2009 due to compatibility issues with the original Harmony, and "demystified" it. The post is pretty lengthy. Either click on the provided highlighted link to go to the original post, or open the spoiler below, if interested...

 

 

I think I've finally correctly mapped out the infamous timing circuit on certain 7800s.

 

Some previous efforts I have found are incorrect, including the one posted on AA here among other places and copied here (sorry, Lab Rat, aka jsoper.)

 

Here is what is correct: The circuit does go in between U11 pin 10 and U4 pin 10. The RC does resemble a high-pass filter and that removing C64 will fix it (the result will be as if the above pins were connected.) Late model units have a 0-ohm resistor between the two pins above, bypassing the circuit. U4 pin 10 goes to A12.

 

What is not correct: The cap does not loop back, it has a resistor to GND, "D1" is not literally D1 but the latched output of the 74174, which is TIAEN (i.e. set 2600 mode).

 

While it does resemble a high-pass filter, that's not quite what's happening. The resistor is 1k and the cap is 100 pF. In order for signals to "pass" (which means here that their logic levels are never marginal or low) by my calculations, they need to be larger than 4.36 MHz. Since no signals will ever "pass," it's not really functioning as a high-pass filter, but a simple RC delay.

 

What it is really doing:

 

When phi2 is high (pin 12 on the schematic), the cap is discharged, and it's charged when it goes low. The function of the circuit is to change A12 from 1 to 0 under certain circumstances.

 

By my estimate, A12 will go low about 600ns after every address change and go back high about 100ns later, which will occur before the next address change.

 

2600 Dark Chambers has a STA $EF7F,x instruction to clear SC RAM. I don't know if this is the problem but it is suspicious. I'm guessing that the problem with early 7800s is they have gate delays on A12. It's possible that these gate delays cause the write timing of the above to miss the data valid window. As I understand, address changes don't always occur at the same time relative to the phi2 clock, and they can be off by ±100ns or so.

 

By making A12 go low before the end of the cycle, perhaps this fixes the write timing or forces a latching of the data while it is still valid. I could be wrong about this.

 

I think the reason that Supercharger and FE don't like the circuit is because they both count address bus changes. Every cycle will cause two address transitions instead of one.

 

The reason I did all this work is because I'm trying to get Harmony to work with this goofy console. Wish me luck.

 

Note: There is a diagram at the bottom of the post linked above.

 

Do you think it's possible to mod a 7800 to use a toggle switch to enable/disable the "kludge" circuit? Flick the switch and try again if game X doesn't load on the first try. If such a circuit also fixed/broke the Concerto on a single 7800 system, that would narrow down the issue I think.

 

I believe a capacitor is pretty much all that you remove to disable the timing circuit right? So..I would think a SPST switch is all that would be needed to either be on or off. Just attach the switch off the cut leg of the capacitor on one end and the point where the capacitor attached to the 7800 main logic on the other end of the switch?

atari2atari in the middle of this post, within the "Compatibility Mod for Certain 2600 Games on 7800 Console" section, provides pictures and instructions on how to implement such a switch utilizing the channel select as the toggle.

[78001987]

So - the good news is, my POKEY chip isnt bad.

 

The tester pokey I received behaved exactly as mine did. Ballblazer, commando, froggie, beef drop, pan man collection pokey all work. Bbcq and dkxm do not. (no sound that is).

 

also with the tester pokey in, I get the same grAphical corruption in Ninja Golf, and other super game carts like fatal run, motor psycho, etc,.

 

So now I guess I just wait until batari sorts out the firmware issues, and use it without pokey installed.