No more homebrews for me

[+cmart604]

I can see a license adding to the cost of a game but there are other games that don't have that overhead and are the same price. Add in the cost of shipping and some games are $80 each!

 

I really don't get how some on here can afford to buy multiple copies of a game a number of times over, based on the number of games released in each year (including several within months or weeks of each other). I really would like to know where all these thousands of dollars disposable income are coming from because I'd like to be a part of that club too.

Pimping.

[Dryfter]

Pimping.

 

But Cmart, "Pimpin' ain't easy".

[bikeguychicago]

 

There's only one game I keep hearing in the $80 (plus shipping) category and that had an unfortunate set of circumstances leading to unexpected costs. I'm probably getting this wrong because no one has specified what is being mentioned. What are these $80 dollar games we're talking about?

 

Paddle Party, Minehunter, and Kroz are $80 with shipping (for the higher serial-numbered boxes in the case of Kroz). I'm assuming Boulder Dash will be the same, if not more.

 

DK Arcade is now going for over $100 shipped since it was discontinued.

[+DZ-Jay]

IIRC Keith Robinson mentioned in an Intellivisionaries episode about the push-pull of "make a product for mass-market fun" vs "make a product for the collector". It kind of goes along with this thread....

 

Many of us label recent Intellivision releases as Homebrew, which sounds Ike something someone hacked out after-hours without a lot of thought in order to scratch a personal itch, and was released on no particular schedule. However, stuff like DKII or Xmas Carol is far beyond that and should be labeled Independent because they show as much quality as anything that came from conpanies that the the big 125.

 

A Homebrew should be something that is made on the cheap with appeal to a wide audience not necessarily a lot of depth, PDF docs, and is inexpensive. Air Hockey as part of Paddle Party is really really good and I think that if that was on a recycled cart with a nice label no box or overlays for $20 it would be in everyone's hands right now. Paddle Party at $70 was a non-starter for me, I could not get one until the last go-around and now that I have it guess what I only play Air Hockey with the kids. I could also see Air Hockey released on the Flashback2 if one comes out, because it's easy to pick up and fast and fun. Mass market appeal of the Homebrew.

 

Full Independent releases like Kroz and Carol I expect to pay top dollar for CIB, but they appeal to a much smaller audience. There is obviously a real business investment and risk in producing something with new cart+overlays+manual+box that has to be recouped (not counting $100+ an hour in developer time). But the fact is that if I have $200 in disposable income I can get two $70 games or I can get six $30 games. So I understand where Dryfter is coming from, I think he and I are more into playing something good on a fun console than getting the whole Intellivision Coolector Experience. Independents are for collectors. Homebrews are for collectors plus everyone else.

 

Maybe in the 90's I decided to throw away all my boxes and put the carts on a wall-mounted shelf, overlays in a baseball card collector binder, and manuals in a box. All of the carts, organized by Network, ready to play. I wish there were more Homebrew and less Independent Label releases to support my limited free time for Intellivision playing.

Christmas Carol was brewed at home out of fresh arabica coffee grounds, organic compost, pencil shavings, and a splash of Christmas Elf blood, sweat, and tears.

 

It is 100% pure-bred, in-bred, home-schooled, and home-brewed--and proud of it.

 

dZ.

[GroovyBee]

There is obviously a real business investment and risk in producing something with new cart+overlays+manual+box that has to be recouped (not counting $100+ an hour in developer time)

Sorry, but homebrew developers are not paid $100 per hour. Not even close! Given that a good game can take over 500 hours to create that'd mean that you'd need to pay out $50K to the programmer! Never mind the cost of the collateral e.g. PCB, shells, box, manual etc. on top of that. So, if you sell 200 games and need to recoup $50K that makes each game $250! It just doesn't add up .

[GroovyBee]

Lets say that as a publisher, you pay the programmer royalties per copy sold. Lets make that a nice round $10 per copy (which is what Elektronite were paying). If the game sells 200 copies, and the game takes 500 hours to create, your programmer gets $4 per hour! Thats well below minimum wage.

[Rev]

But Groovy, 4.00 per hour in some random country, lets say Taiwan, 4.00 per hour would be amazing money. A person making that would live like a king.......so, its all relative to location.

[GroovyBee]

But Groovy, 4.00 per hour in some random country, lets say Taiwan, 4.00 per hour would be amazing money. A person making that would live like a king.......so, its all relative to location.

Yep! If you want to pay sweatshop rates for homebrew game programmers.....

[+MattelAquarius]

I don't know if Taiwan is such a good example. It's not a country, and it's one of the top 20 economies in the world. In most countries where the equivalent of $4.00US would make you a king, doesn't have a lot of untapped coding potential either, I'd venture. If they did, I also imagine there would be a significant language barrier for coordination.

[First Spear]

Sorry, but homebrew developers are not paid $100 per hour. Not even close! Given that a good game can take over 500 hours to create that'd mean that you'd need to pay out $50K to the programmer! Never mind the cost of the collateral e.g. PCB, shells, box, manual etc. on top of that. So, if you sell 200 games and need to recoup $50K that makes each game $250! It just doesn't add up .

 

Dude I am not saying that a developer is getting $100 an hour. I am saying that the work could be valued at $100 an hour. That is why in my rough calculation, adding developer time can't even be in the equation because if it was, the price for a new cart would be huge.

 

I develop Windoze software for a living, I get it. But I also get the fact that expensive games with great boxes and great manuals and great overlays and great cart shells price the games out of some people's hands. It makes a game not a "homebrew" it makes it "independent".

 

The popular definition of "homebrew" implies something rough around the edges and inexpensive as a byproduct.

 

A lot of Intellivision releases these days feature deep gameplay and a highly polished look that pushes the price way up. It appeals to rabid fans like us on this forum that will pay $70 a pop, but probably limits the number of copies being sold.

 

I don't know what the sales-pricing sweet spot is, but the term "$70 homebrew" is kind of an oxymoron.

 

I can imagine someone Googling for something or other and comes across info about one of the new games. The someone says to himself "hey I have an Intellivision in the attic it might be fun to fire it up again, I'll check out this game". That casual someone goes to buy the game and says "this cost more than FIFA 2015 on Xbox! For Intellivision?! I'm out of here!". Sale missed. That casual prospect is

• not going to take the time to view the AA forums to know what it took to get the game going
• not going to understand the talent it takes to actually make an Intellivison game
• not going to realize the effort+skill it takes to produce a real box/overlays/manual

The casual prospect is going to compare it to the other games they see at-large and move on.

 

So in the end the high price pushes folks away, whether experienced like Dryfter or the most casual passer-by.

[freewheel]

You guys want cheaper homebrew, it's happening. You just need to be aware of, and support it.

 

Several of us newb programmers are creating some pretty crude but fun games, but that's not really what I'm talking about. When we've been asking for help and tips and such, holy crap - there are dozens upon dozens of homebrew games written in the past few years that I NEVER see people talking about here. Because they don't have a full-on retail release, and therefore are not "collectible". And there are a shit-ton of half-complete games that I can tell people never get around to finishing, because "well, it'll never be good enough to be in a box" sets in. They don't want to spend the time making pretty eye candy splash screens, or coding complex animations, or writing symphonies. It's just a fun, complete game - by 1981's standards (ok, usually better).

 

I didn't even know half of these existed, personally. Maybe we need our own Humble Bundle version to happen. Let me ask y'all this - are you guys willing to pay a small amount for ROM downloads?

[accousticguitar]

ROM downloads would probably be the only way I could ever afford a new Intellivision homebrew game.

[+intvsteve]

Unfortunately, the Intellivision scene has some barriers that force costs a bit higher. Surely those with more expertise will correct me, but isn't it the case that for systems like the 2600 or Colecovision you can basically pull the old ROM and pop in a new EPROM and be done? Clean the shell, put on a new sticker and you're set. I don't think that works for Intellivision, since the parts are no longer available. That's why, even with recycled shells, you still see all-new boards being used. That must drive up the costs some.

 

But you also see a spread in cost with the packaging, too. Elektronite's gatefold boxes are on really thick stock and have high-gloss finish. The others like Collectorvision and IntelligentVision go the more traditional route, and surely they cost less to produce.

 

Not saying either is right or wrong -- just different choices in packaging, which directly influences the cost to the consumer.

 

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but at least on the 2600 it seems there are a lot of homebrews that are little more than graphics hacks. Yes, there are also outstanding new, original titles, too, but wouldn't it be right to say that because of the ease of making a 'hackbrew,' you see more of them for those platforms? You can find a cute take on a familiar game for $25 and not worry too much if it's a 'meh' effort.

 

It'd be interesting to see what would happen if bare cart-only versions of Intellivision games could sell for $25-$30 and be just profitable enough to be self-sustaining. Would such a model succeed? Would developers stick with the platform? We saw with a $40 cart only game (Old School) that people clamored desperately to get the full CIB treatment. Are we, the Intellivision community, just that picky about our game packaging? Or spoiled?

[+JasonlikesINTV]

My ideal balance would be for all new 'Homebrews' to come in three variations.

 

1. $10-15 ROM only (possibly only available after CIB sales hit some sort of sales milestone)

2. $25-35 Cart only (possibly with a printed manual, but at least available for download)

3. $50-65 CIB aimed at the collector and serious gamer. This would be the initial release.

 

I'm sure there are a million reasons why this wouldn't work, but it's how I'd like to see things...something for everyone

[freewheel]

I think there are different markets, and it's worth catering to them. The "problem", if there is one, is that this has become a "business". And I'm not trying to shit all over people trying to make a buck, I'm just giving my 2 cents as an ignorant newbie outsider.

 

A lot of hardcore collectors want CIB. Honestly, if I ever develop something people think is cool enough to buy - so do I! But that doesn't mean that every game needs this treatment. A lot of people want to see fancy splash screens, intermissions, amazing graphics that weren't done in the 80s - and so do I! But it drives the development cost up - and also leads to people thinking "a game like this REALLY needs a nice box to go with it, with manual and overlays and everything". I mean come on folks, 90% of games never needed their overlays. And I'm pretty sure most homebrew doesn't either. Do I want mine to have it? Hells yeah But most are just "press 1 for fire, 2 for jump" type things. We didn't need a printed instruction to figure that out on an NES and I don't think we need that here, most of the time.

 

And then there's something that I may get shit on for mentioning - a game like Blix. Now, let me be completely honest here - I have not tried it. I have barely seen gameplay footage and a few screenshots. Maybe there's something insanely complex and deep with this game. I am in no way trying to take anything away from the author or fans of it. But - it looks like a dead-simple puzzle game. The kind of thing someone could whip together in short order. The kind of thing that could have existed in 1983. And yet what happened? The author signed on for an exclusive distribution deal, created a way-too-limited release for CGE, and got a lot of people pissed off. There are a few homebrews I've seen that deserve this, because they're just that fucking amazing. To me, this wasn't it. Again, maybe I'm missing something, so take my comments with a grain of pure ignorance on my part. But to me, that's at the heart of what's "wrong" here - even fairly simple games are being treated as OMG once-in-a-lifetime collector's items, driving people into a frenzy and creating animosity within the community.

 

I mean, just look at the insane markup people pay for older homebrew. And why? It isn't making the developer nor publisher any more money to leave things like this. It's keeping a lot of fans away from the game, and driving speculators. Maybe once a game recoups its non-development costs (you will never really pay back a developer's time - I've made a pretty primitive game and even an insane $2000 profit wouldn't compensate my time for it), games should be re-released, in a cheaper format. And perhaps ROM sales of some sort. To get the games into more "casual" people's hands. But then - does this piss off the collectors and speculators? Do they refuse to buy the next release because they can no longer have something special?

 

I don't really have answers but I can see the frustration from the OP and where it comes from. Apologies for the essay.

Edited October 16, 2014 by freeweed

[+DZ-Jay]

I've said this before, but I think it's worth repeating: I make and release my games the way I want to see them made.

 

I don't get much free time to work on hobby projects, I cherish my personal time, I have a loverly wife whose company I really enjoy, I'm a champion procrastinator, and a very slow coder. There aren't many projects I've taken up in my entire life that I've followed through to completion, and none of them have had much if any significant impact on anything but my personal pride.

 

Therefore, I treat each one of my games as a master piece--because to me they are.

 

Christmas Carol started as a small personal project to port Pac-Man into the Intellivision. It turned into a cute little themed demo ROM presented to the community on Christmas. That itself morphed into an epic that took over my life and drained my spirit in a deep way. It was the first significant project that I actually completed in a long, long time, and it fulfilled some deep-seated childhood dreams.

 

All that, to me, deserved the Triple-A release treatment, complete with box, manual, overlays, and the works! Not because it needed to be expensive or because I deserved to make money out of it, but because in my nostalgia-infused mind, that's what an Intellivision game is.

 

It was never intended to be a collector's item, in fact the game ROM is given away for free. On the contrary, it was intended to bring back the memories of our childhood: opening the plastic wrapper, cracking open the cardboard box, plugging in the plastic cartridge into your Master Component, and slipping the overlays over the well-worn hand-controller. Even the manually was written like a whimsical children's story (Joe and I worked really hard to avoid any mention of or allusions to death or suffering), because that's how 8- or 9-year old me always wanted game booklets to be.

 

I wanted that, and I thought others would appreciate the memories as well.

 

It's now been a few years since Christmas Carol came out. I have plenty of ideas of new games I want to make and they are all in various stages of conceptual or technical design. I am also working on a development framework to ease that effort. However, as I said before: I don't get much free time to work on hobby projects, I cherish my personal time, I have a loverly wife whose company I really enjoy, I'm a champion procrastinator, and a very slow coder.

 

Therefore, God only knows when I will complete my next game, or if I'll ever complete it. But when I do, I'll make sure it'll be a big splash production again.

 

Not every home-brewed game needs to be this way, of course, but mine do--because I want them to. Those who cherish the nostalgia that comes with opening a box and perusing a printed manual, can get the CIB version; for everyone else who just wants to play the game, the ROM will be free. All bases covered.

 

Ultimately, how a game is released should be the author's prerogative. If someone makes a quick-and-dirty hack and wants to release it CIB, then more power to him. You don't like the game? Fine, don't buy it. If enough people stay away from it, perhaps that author will reconsider his approach. Trust me, it happens.

 

There's little to gain by making a big deal out of it or pointing fingers; it just spreads animosity and discord in the community.

 

That's it. That's my rant for the day. Now off to go to work... *sigh*

 

-dZ.

Edited October 16, 2014 by DZ-Jay

[+Gemintronic]

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but at least on the 2600 it seems there are a lot of homebrews that are little more than graphics hacks. Yes, there are also outstanding new, original titles, too, but wouldn't it be right to say that because of the ease of making a 'hackbrew,' you see more of them for those platforms? You can find a cute take on a familiar game for $25 and not worry too much if it's a 'meh' effort.

 

I'm not sure I've seen many commercially sold Atari 2600 homebrew that are only "hacks". Again, I'd need actual examples to judge this statement. As a side hacking ROMs is a different skill set than creating games. It's not necessarily easier either.

 

On the Atari 2600 side you have many different programmers with many different skill sets. You have different games with a variety of packaging choices. Not every game needs to be Princess Rescue to be successful. There are great games that have little to no packaging. Then we have the Desert Bus which is hardly a game but had decent packaging. Both types of games are successful in their own way.

 

Basically, in order to grow the scene we really need to support a broader range of choices. Licensed games with retail packaging are always going to be on the high end.

[scalpel]

So, I realized the major reason why I stopped coming to the forums as much as I used to. There's not really much left to discuss about the original 125 (and people don't seem to talk about them as much as they used to). So the boards have become a posting grounds for and about homebrews. Most posts are about when they'll come out, how many will be available, preordering, etc. etc.

 

The main issue for me is that the prices in the last 12-24 months have jumped a lot. It wasn't too bad when they cost $40-$50 a piece but now most prices start at $70 a pop.. I mean hell, I paid $70 each for League of Light and Robot Rubble. I think people are willing to pay 10x that amount for those titles now. (No, not selling...)

 

I understand there's a lot of work that goes into these, especially since the creators make them complete with boxes, instructions and overlays and the collectors enjoy them. I'm sure the prices aren't just pulled out of the air and I know that the creators aren't making a living off making them...I get it.

 

The nail in my homebrew collecting coffin happened when I saw that only 30 copies of Blix were created. It actually was a bit of a relief for me because I know I'll most likely never get it, so I don't feel compelled to get the other games that have come out recently that I don't have. I may pick up one here or there if they are games that I remember as a kid that never were released on the INTV but for the most part, I won't be getting any more.

 

Thanks to all the guys that put so much time in to making a lot of these games. It has been exciting picking them up and feeling that same excitement like when I was a kid and my dad would bring a game home for me and opening it up and playing it. Keep making them for those that enjoy them and know that you're probably giving some of them that same feeling.

 

What I really like the most is the conversations I've had with many of the "homebrewers" over the years. I feel like I can just reach out to them to see how things are going without actually having to talk about the Intellivision. Special thanks to David and Joe who I've had a lot of conversations with and Roger who hasn't been on the scene in a long time but I'll still thank. I've gotten a lot of Intellivision insight and knowledge from you guys.

 

As for me I'll stop with the 25 homebrews I currently. Original 125+25 homebrews = a nice round 150 for me.

 

I'm sure this post will cause a little controversy and maybe it's meant to do so. But really it's just me posting what I feel.

 

Thanks guys!

 

You're right, we should talk more (really more) about the games we played when we were kid or about the 125 'cause there are the orignal games.

 

ADD (the first one) still give me great feelings (we can use "feeling?") when I play it and I love to play again and again, same for games as Tennis, Super Cobra, Tutankham). Because you, I will play tomorrow shark! shark! and treasure of tarmin, may be I will post something about them

[wolfy62]

I am in the same category as Dryfter. At a crossroads on how to proceed, so what I did as a collector was.....start playing all my games again! Very refreshing and relieving.

 

Great comments by DZ-Jay, Freeweed and Jason, all very well said! I agree with all of it!

[Zendocon]

On 10/14/2014 at 9:50 AM, Dryfter said:

So, I realized the major reason why I stopped coming to the forums as much as I used to. There's not really much left to discuss about the original 125 (and people don't seem to talk about them as much as they used to). So the boards have become a posting grounds for and about homebrews. Most posts are about when they'll come out, how many will be available, preordering, etc. etc.

First, welcome back.  I came back myself in 2018, after a long hiatus after the original 2005 release of SameGame & Robots.  A lot has changed since then, overwhelmingly for the better!

 

As for the original 125, there's always more to discover, I'm convinced.  One thing I started doing was using dasm1600 (the disassembler bundled with jzIntv) to look for more easter eggs and create some interesting ROM pokes.  On Intellivision Online, I posted notes about how I deconstructed the dungeon generation for AD&D Cloudy Mountain.  Retroarch's freeintv core also allows for earning retroachievements for a handful of Intellivision games.

On 10/14/2014 at 9:50 AM, Dryfter said:

The nail in my homebrew collecting coffin happened when I saw that only 30 copies of Blix were created. It actually was a bit of a relief for me because I know I'll most likely never get it, so I don't feel compelled to get the other games that have come out recently that I don't have. I may pick up one here or there if they are games that I remember as a kid that never were released on the INTV but for the most part, I won't be getting any more.

I'm at least partially responsible for that whole Blix debacle, for rubber-stamping the idea to have those prototype carts produced in the first place.  It was meant to be another 2-in-1 release, joining SameGame & Robots, and I finally did release Blix & Chocolate through GoodDealGames a couple years ago.

 

In another thread, you mentioned hoping FUBAR would be released some day.  I did finish it, and @Rev released it a couple years ago, shortly after the release of Blix & Chocolate Mine.

[+JasonlikesINTV]

I've found that participating in the HSC had been a great catalyst for finding new ways to appreciate and discuss the original 125.

[Intelligentleman]

45 minutes ago, JasonlikesINTV said:

I've found that participating in the HSC had been a great catalyst for finding new ways to appreciate and discuss the original 125.

This was always my favorite part. And when I was still actively participating, I recall sussing out some interesting things about the games. For example, did you know you can turn your intellivision controller horizontally and play Pitfall. Almost like the devs programmed it that way on purpose. (i think that was the game this was discovered on, but you get my point hopefully).

[Morpheus]

Okay Drifter, got it...

I’ll figure out something else to trade for getting the Super Series then...?

What about a good bottle of Barolo red vine? Or some Parmesan 30 months old?? Parma ham???

 

[Old Timey Retro Gamer]

I totally understand.

Myself, I don't think I have a problem with the cost of the homebrews (or 125 originals) as much as I have a problem that you'll pay a lot of money (for those games) for a 30-40 year old console, that might not power up tomorrow. 

Then I would get stuck with an expensive dust collector. ☹️

Edited May 2, 2021 by Old Timey Retro Gamer

[+Gemintronic]

The original poster way back in 2014 stated $70 titles being a breaking point.  Also, availability.

 

The opposite of expensive, well packaged games is experimental, simpler games with cheaper/loose cart packaging.

 

Is there a demand for such games?  It feels like the bar is set pretty high.