Homebrews No Longer Obtainable?

[Mr SQL]

 

If you can't provide a reference to support your claims, then your argument has no merit at all.

I will send you a PM Andrew, I'm off this thread.

 

And you're preaching to the choir as per this discussion:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/228859-the-130000-game-preorder-thread

[MrBeefy]

I personally like roms being released. I have played them to figure out which ones I want to physically buy. I have yet to buy a homebrew that I couldn't test in some form. Bentley Bear is the exception to that rule but that's mainly bc I trust PMP at this point to put out quality.

 

I don't own a harmony and I'm not sure I want to due to I'd spend more time loading rims than playing them but I do think I would still buy physical copies.

[RamrodHare]

I'm going to drop out of this discussion now. I feel like too many people are misunderstanding (or intentionally misusing) this thread. The developers don't "OWE" anyone here ANYTHING! Stop with that crap! The point I wanted to get across is that everyone should have the opportunity to BUY a copy of a rom from the developer for a reasonable price, so everyone gains something. I thought the members here were a community and would come together on this subject, not argue. Now there are people complaining and throwing insults around. This isn't what this was supposed to be about..... Enjoy the bickering, I'm done with this thread.

[Keatah]

To those still lamenting about unobtainables:

 

Limited editions, collector's editions, numbered runs.. That sort of thing is (IMHO) ridiculous. One does not gain super powers by chasing after such stuff. And it is just stuff. Not a magical energy crystal or the fountain of youth. So yeh..

 

My philosophy is that if something is purposely made artificially unobtainable then I don't let it bother me. To do otherwise would create all sorts of frustration. So, "If it comes my way, then great!"

 

Limited editions and collector's editions and all that.. It's all about investing, money, and ebay, prestige, and, "I have this, you do not!" .. While the two doctrines (player vs. collector) can overlap, there's still enough ridiculousness in buying something to put on a shelf. Only a few people and yourself will care.

 

 

Focusing energies on rare items often detracts from other more practical activities. One can have many nice things that aren't limited or rare or numbered collector's anything. After all, it's just "stuff".

 

[Keatah]

It is sad but true: eventually mother nature will strike and then a copy may become available.

 

ohh how ghastly!

[Keatah]

 

Speaking as somebody that use to write a fair amount of shareware software, I can say at the time I used to enjoy programming. But as time went on and sales dropped because most of my software was designed for specific hardware (like the old Snappy Video Snapshot, and model train controls) as that hardware became obsolete. So I slowly lost interest in writing new software. (although I still maintain my .com domain) The point is interests change and support a program forever is not practical. But if somebody were to contact me about one of my old programs I'd probably just give them a copy now or ask for a few dollars to cover my time..

 

I still have my Snappy! Box, dox, and all. What sort of software did you make for it?

Edited June 13, 2017 by Keatah

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Enjoy the bickering, I'm done with this thread.

I hope you don'T feel alienated by the latest discussion here. Overall the Atari 2600 community are very nice people. The (very few) exceptions prove the rule.

[+nanochess]

To those who were pondering the digital download option:

 

I've had Atari 2600 games available for digital download on Itch.io for around 2 years. I had 2 runs of my Upp! game - one directly after making the digital download available. I didn't see much of any return on the digital download BUT my sales of physical copies slowed down. So, at least one data point to consider there. Digital downloads have been a wonderful "tip jar" but an awful way to sell games.

 

I am humbled and encouraged greatly by these tips. I also struggle to see digital downloads as a viable retail option.

It's all true unfortunately.

 

Releasing ROM before physical reduces sold copies by more than 50%.

 

Selling ROM after physical copies are sold out is the best way although my "maximum" has been 30 copies sold.

 

I've tried several times to confirm these, and I've learnt to delay as much possible the ROM release.

[MissCommand]

Yes.

 

 

As long as the author has granted permission, I'm glad to do so.

 

..Al

 

I was wondering, if someone made a homebrew and just wanted a copy for themselves (no cartridge stickers, manual, etc)... would that be something you could do?

 

What about DPC+ games... can those be put onto carts?

[Albert]

I was wondering, if someone made a homebrew and just wanted a copy for themselves (no cartridge stickers, manual, etc)... would that be something you could do?

 

What about DPC+ games... can those be put onto carts?

 

Yes, I've made many one-off copies of games for authors, as well as small runs of games that they've sold themselves. Sometimes just a label, sometimes with a manual, rarely with a box (boxes are expensive to produce in small quantities). And, yes, DPC+ games can be put onto carts.

 

..Al

[MissCommand]

 

Yes, I've made many one-off copies of games for authors, as well as small runs of games that they've sold themselves. Sometimes just a label, sometimes with a manual, rarely with a box (boxes are expensive to produce in small quantities). And, yes, DPC+ games can be put onto carts.

 

..Al

Ahhh...thanks for the info Al (and doing this for the Homebrew community!).

 

I started a DPC+ game just to see if I could and what it was all about... and now that I am past a title screen, sound driver, and going further, I am regretting this choice. I never even imagined that any piece of work could go on a cart, I only thought the best games could! I got sucked in by 10 single line multicolor sprites! heh heh.

Edited June 13, 2017 by MissCommand

[Andromeda Stardust]

It's all true unfortunately.

 

Releasing ROM before physical reduces sold copies by more than 50%.

 

You would not believe how many games I've play tested on Harmony before ordering a cart from the AA store. Harmony play testing has also saved me from buying a lemon on occasion.

 

Case in point, if your game is good, people will buy it. If it's a turd, they won't. But without a public ROM or at least a functional demo, how will they know? Lstly, if it's limited edition and no ROM available, then only collectards and resellers will pick it up, and it will be destined to live out it's days as a shelf queen.

[RamrodHare]

I hope you don'T feel alienated by the latest discussion here. Overall the Atari 2600 community are very nice people. The (very few) exceptions prove the rule.

Thomas,

I know there are always a few bad apples in every bunch, so I expected there would be drama from time to time. I'm by no means leaving the site or the forums. I'm just done trying to add anything to this thread, since it's clear that the "bad apples" seem to be falling right on top of it.. I joined the forums to talk to people who, like me, are interested in keeping this iconic piece of video game history alive, I'll just have to ignore the people who want to rain on the parade.

Edited June 14, 2017 by RamrodHare

[+Andrew Davie]

I will send you a PM Andrew, I'm off this thread.

 

Please don't PM me. I won't read or respond.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Thomas,

I know there are always a few bad apples in every bunch, so I expected there would be drama from time to time. I'm by no means leaving the site or the forums. I'm just done trying to add anything to this thread, since it's clear that the "bad apples" seem to be falling right on top of it.. I joined the forums to talk to people who, like me, are interested in keeping this iconic piece of video game history alive, I'll just have to ignore the people who want to rain on the parade.

Just ignore the haters. Harmony was one of my first purchases after I got my Atari, and I have bought a ton of homebrews over the years. I've lost count, but between Nintendo and Atari, it's well over 50. Also a couple for Genesis and Turbografx.

[Keatah]

SR may be a 32-bit ARM game. But as long as we consider Harmony, Melody, SuperCharger, and "custom" bank-switching chips or an add-on sound chips/devices to be valid expansion options, it's all good. To denounce a game because it is 32-bit means all other expansion options would need to be denounced too.

 

Then we're back down to 2K and 4K again.. Anyhow someday I wanna see 64-bit games! Heh!!

 

I also believe that if a game relies on new expansion technologies it should be mentioned in the review as a technical side note. Not to question the goodness of the game, or the prowess of the programmer. But to bring information to the discussion.

 

---

 

The PC equivalent would be this totally kick-ass game or something, but it needs this specific graphics card. Ahh yes.. remember the Voodoo and Voodoo2? No one talked bad on those games. It was a valid expansion option. A valid platform. Well same here.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Keatah

[DirtyHairy]

I will send you a PM Andrew, I'm off this thread.

 

That's ridiculous and toxic. Basically, you are hurling around mud and, when pressed to support your claims with a quote, you go away and leave your accusations standing without a way to refute them. The only decent thing to do would either be to come out with your quote or just admit your error, but I think you sqirted around enough poison on this thread.

 

Denouncing Space Rocks because its using the melody ARM is just a display of ignorance. Imho Space Rocks is an incredibly good Asteroids remake that shows polish and finesse in every aspect of the game, which has nothing to do with using an ARM. The rating VGC gave just reflects this fact. In addition, using the ARM doesn't make development any easier. Quite contrary, if anything, using a coprocessor complicates things as you have two separate systems and their interaction to worry about. It's just another way to enhance the possibilities you have, at the price of increasing complexity.

Edited June 14, 2017 by DirtyHairy

[+Andrew Davie]

Be offended.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo

Edited June 14, 2017 by Andrew Davie

[Mr SQL]

 

Please don't PM me. I won't read or respond.

 

Andrew,

if you read my $130,000 KC Munchkin thread you know I feel the same way; no one should give anyone any flack for selling a game, it's up to the programmer.

 

I didn't release KC until I was done marketing it, but I wanted everyone to be able to play the game so of course the ROM was going to be released - otherwise it's a reverse stock market investment where you get 1/60th of your investment back.

 

My 2,000 hours quoted on that thread included some of the time spent writing the soft blitter chip, the DLI's and the BASIC compiler but I spent additional time on that as well and I remember the similar conversations about development I had with you and Tom (not always at the same time):

 

We specifically discussed the design and how you could have used other memory schemes if you needed to build it bitd (you may remember me talking about the "RAM of two VIC-20's in addition to your 40K of ROM") and also that you were discussing porting to another memory format for the construction kit because people wouldn't want to just build games for the Encore.

 

I enjoyed those conversations and certainly agree with all of those ideas, and I think if you pick a memory format compatible with the portable it would be even cooler. I ported KC from SuperCharger to CBS RAM format for the same reason.

 

However when Jentszch, Spice and Alex follow me around on various programming threads like recently repeatedly posting ignore images while I'm discussing the soft blitter output, that's offputting to programming conversation like that game review full of personal insults which can't be a language issue or the other German reviews (from real reviewers, not other programmers) would match.

I'd like to discuss the soft blitter with you, and the DLI's too if you're interested. STARBLITZ made some programmers very angry a while back simply because I did not share their viewpoint about 30 HZ.

 

WARPDRIVE is even more interesting along those lines because it can overclock a tube Television to 60 FPS of full screen animation (bw switch). These games also show that it is possible to create more flicker at 60 HZ than at 30 HZ if the full motion video animation FPS is mismatched which I found intriguing.

 

Edit: DirtyHairy - you were on one of threads I linked and threw insults for a long time before admitting your emu does a weighted average of three frames; that's not what the Atari does and it breaks many of my games. The emu should match the Atari like Javatari and Stella do by default (60 frames - no weighted average). I'm not impressed with your insults because anyone can do that, but I am impressed with your emu and I would be further impressed if you wrote our own core.

 

Edit: NanoChess and Gemtronic - excellent posts, you get it! We cannot free a ROM until we are done marketing it (hasn't changed since the 80's) so digital downloads can work but not if the ROM is available; better to give only a video preview than even a limited demo from this regard, we sell more ROM's or more media (cart, tape, CD, mini-cartridge).

 

imo a good game can yield 2K monies and a sitck of butter (regardless of media) if we follow those marketing rules but absolutely is not worth it unless we are interested in incredible reverse stock investments (turning 130K into 2K). Folks don't realize the effort and time that goes into writing a game.

 

imo insults are closed minded and make us miss the fun so should be avoided; anyone doing these things is taking themselves too seriously. And that one person that called a name I'll keep encouraging to write a game

 

None of these are available anymore but the ROM's sure are, it's why we write them:

 

[+Andrew Davie]

Mr SQL I had no agenda against, or dislike for you; honestly. I'm barely active in the community anymore and don't follow recent developments much. I am responding to your comments in this thread. I would be happy to talk shop when this issue is resolved. I'm generally open to discussions with anyone. However the issue in hand is that you made a false statement about my work and intentions, which impugned my honour and intentions. I'm not willing to let that go without comment. I gave you a chance to provide a reference and/or evidence to support your accusation, which happens to be false. You avoided providing any reference or proof with a glib "use the search" which pretty much suggested to me not only that you made it up, but that you knew you made it up. I suggest you familiarise yourself with "the burden of proof" - it's your job to support your claims, not anyone else's to disprove them. Either you are honestly mistaken (and this happens all the time; our memories are not very reliable) - which is fine; I can give you the benefit of the doubt and you can retract your accusations without any ill feelings on my part - or, you are actually knowingly and deliberately making stuff up to suit your viewpoint. Lying, in other words. I'm not sure which, at the moment, and I don't really care... the thread pretty much speaks for itself. You have since doubled-down on your claims. Since you've attacked me and my work without justification and pretty much out of the blue, while the attack stands I'm NOT willing to be friendly and talk shop with you. Ball's in your court, basically. I suggest that you might try to "use the search"; I hear it's great for finding stuff.

 

On a separate issue, and just for the record so everyone can understand my viewpoint - to anyone who sidetracks an issue by playing the "I'm offended!" card; go ahed, be offended, that's fine. You do have a complete and absolute right to be offended... at anything you want to be offended by. However, you do NOT have a right to NOT be offended, and try to force others to protect your delicate sensibilities. Political correctness is an anathema to me, and you instantly lose credibility if you claim you are offended and ignore the actual issues. Essentially, and to put it bluntly... fuck your political correctness. If you find that you are offended by something, no problem - go play somewhere else.

[+nanochess]

You would not believe how many games I've play tested on Harmony before ordering a cart from the AA store. Harmony play testing has also saved me from buying a lemon on occasion.

 

Case in point, if your game is good, people will buy it. If it's a turd, they won't. But without a public ROM or at least a functional demo, how will they know? Lstly, if it's limited edition and no ROM available, then only collectards and resellers will pick it up, and it will be destined to live out it's days as a shelf queen.

 

I'll release only video previews in most cases. The Atari community at Atariage is the exception to this rule, as I've done with Space Raid (although was a big mistake to release the final version as ROM before the cart) and more recently Aardvark.

[tdp]

This is one of the said things about this hobby. It's all small scale, and we have to accept that. So, sometimes, you will miss out on great games. Sometimes the amount of copies that can be released is small. And yes, sometimes it might be scalpers that get those games. But in truth scalpers can only charge as much as people are willing to pay. Don't feed 'em!!!

 

But at the end of the day, many kind hearted programmers give up monstrous amounts of their time to keep our hobby alive. Breath new life into a console as old as the VCS. So, if a dev wants to pull a game and not release it again, it would suck, but it's his/her choice. We have to respect that. I respect it even more, now that I'm having a go at my first game. I'm not too fussed about money, I'm about people playing my game, and having fun with it. Having a physical release would fulfill a childhood dream, though. I'm guessing it the same for other devs too.But after awhile they move on.

 

I think all the homebrew devs do a great job, and I hope they carry on too. And hopefully, I'll be joining their rakes soon.

[Mr SQL]

Mr SQL I had no agenda against, or dislike for you; honestly. I'm barely active in the community anymore and don't follow recent developments much. I am responding to your comments in this thread. I would be happy to talk shop when this issue is resolved. I'm generally open to discussions with anyone. However the issue in hand is that you made a false statement about my work and intentions, which impugned my honour and intentions. I'm not willing to let that go without comment. I gave you a chance to provide a reference and/or evidence to support your accusation, which happens to be false. You avoided providing any reference or proof with a glib "use the search" which pretty much suggested to me not only that you made it up, but that you knew you made it up. I suggest you familiarise yourself with "the burden of proof" - it's your job to support your claims, not anyone else's to disprove them. Either you are honestly mistaken (and this happens all the time; our memories are not very reliable) - which is fine; I can give you the benefit of the doubt and you can retract your accusations without any ill feelings on my part - or, you are actually knowingly and deliberately making stuff up to suit your viewpoint. Lying, in other words. I'm not sure which, at the moment, and I don't really care... the thread pretty much speaks for itself. You have since doubled-down on your claims. Since you've attacked me and my work without justification and pretty much out of the blue, while the attack stands I'm NOT willing to be friendly and talk shop with you. Ball's in your court, basically. I suggest that you might try to "use the search"; I hear it's great for finding stuff.

 

On a separate issue, and just for the record so everyone can understand my viewpoint - to anyone who sidetracks an issue by playing the "I'm offended!" card; go ahed, be offended, that's fine. You do have a complete and absolute right to be offended... at anything you want to be offended by. However, you do NOT have a right to NOT be offended, and try to force others to protect your delicate sensibilities. Political correctness is an anathema to me, and you instantly lose credibility if you claim you are offended and ignore the actual issues. Essentially, and to put it bluntly... fuck your political correctness. If you find that you are offended by something, no problem - go play somewhere else.

 

Andrew,

I think highly of you because of your games from back then and now; you misread my post and accused me of tying you to the programmers picking on a 12 year old when I had in fact excluded you, but I'm not going to insist you apologize - you have a valid point I get offended when folk pick on kids, particularly on a video game site or any other place children frequent.

 

I don't see the reason to pick on other programmers either or to single out programmers from bitd like Greg or SolidCorp which I've seen alot of. You only encourage ideas and discussion and I commend you for it, but you did get pretty angry and offended at SolidCorp wanting 30K and imo you should apologize to him. I think programmers deserve whatever they get.

 

You're still cursing at me which means you're still offended, I like to talk shop and I thought that video was pretty funny so let me see if I can unoffend you by answering your questions:

 

"glib use the search function"

Not reasonable because you were cursing at me; then the burden is on you otherwise you get to talk dirty to me and have me follow your orders. Ask politely and I'll help you.

 

"Doubled down on your claims"...

Seems like you remember the discussion we had about porting your engine to another format with less requirements so it could run on Harmony and the discussion you could have created it bitd with a smaller footprint.

 

"Honestly Mistaken"

You did start the game before Harmony was created; I'm sorry for my confusion there.

 

Back on topic - freeing the ROM's for unavailable or unobtanium games:

 

Your goal was to create an unpiratable game as per the copy protection, and the exotic format also functions as part of that - double copy protection. Copy protection becomes a double edged sword for a programmer because we want more people to enjoy our games once we're done selling them, market saturation, what have you; I haven't used copy protection since the 80's and it bothers me because I can't get that protection off my best game, shared all the rest long ago!

 

You wrote an incredible game and want more people to be able to play so you have to figure out how to come up with the time to make it (the "demo") compatible with the Harmony and the portable console. And I have to do that for my games when I want more people to be able to play them though I have tried to get Nukey to do it for me a few times

[+splendidnut]

I'd like to apologize to everyone here for recently referencing the Star Castle debacle in another thread. It seems to me to be part of what has fueled Mr SQL arguments here. Again, I'm sorry.

[DirtyHairy]

Edit: DirtyHairy - you were on one of threads I linked and threw insults for a long time before admitting your emu does a weighted average of three frames; that's not what the Atari does and it breaks many of my games. The emu should match the Atari like Javatari and Stella do by default (60 frames - no weighted average). I'm not impressed with your insults because anyone can do that, but I am impressed with your emu and I would be further impressed if you wrote our own core.

 

At the danger of feeding the troll, I'm replying to this as you're now starting to spread half-truths about my work. I remember the discussion you are referring to, and claiming I insulted you there is either a very long stretch, or my english is much worse than I thought; at any rate, it wasn't my intention. The word admitting is a pretty bizarre choice, too: there is nothing there to admit. The emulator is simply configured to do frame averaging by default, and I never claimed anything else --- it's even in the docs, for heaven's sake (check out the part "video settings") I won't enter an argument on why I implemented things this way. It's a setting, and you can change it if you don't like it. There will be more options for the rendering pipeline in the future, but my time is limited and my priorities are my own business. As for the your last claim, I have good news for you there: the emulation core is my own and was not derived from or based on any existing core.

 

To make this abundantly clear: I have no grudge with you whatsoever, but I am allergic to people that hurl half-truths and lies and try to evade verification of their claims. You can save your breath if you intend to continue this argument; all it will achieve is ending up on my ignore list.

 

To everyone else: sorry for the troll-bait and for derailing this thread even further.

Edited June 15, 2017 by DirtyHairy