Homebrews No Longer Obtainable?

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

However when Jentszch, Spice and Alex follow me around on various programming threads like recently repeatedly posting ignore images while I'm discussing the soft blitter output, that's offputting to programming conversation like that game review full of personal insults which can't be a language issue or the other German reviews (from real reviewers, not other programmers) would match.

I'd like to discuss the soft blitter with you, and the DLI's too if you're interested. STARBLITZ made some programmers very angry a while back simply because I did not share their viewpoint about 30 HZ.

Could you please do us a favor and drop the 30Hz mantra? 30Hz entire playfield flicker may not bother you, but it nauseates other gamers. And yes, there are people who can detect higher framerates like 50Hz or 60Hz. 60Hz is detectable but tolerable to me. My old Viewsonic monitor I ran at 1152x864@70Hz because it caused less fatigue than it's native 1280x1024@60Hz. And I'm thankful I didn't grow up in a PAL territory because 50Hz gives me headaches.

 

So for some of us, 30Hz on a couple player sprites may be fine as long as it's not the whole screen. People gave you honest feedback in the poll topic you posted regarding flicker, and you denounced our feedback because you didn't share the same sensibilities.

 

Your posts on other topics including this one tend to be off the wall. $130,000 for a homebrew? You pulled that statistic out of thin air? No homebrewer makes games for the money as you no doubt are well aware.

 

Quite frankly, I find your continued lack of ability to accept criticism while posting the same regurgitated stuff again and again to be quite disconcerting. Can't take it, well you shouldn't have asked for it. People give you their honest opinions and you take a dump on it.

 

Just don't be surprised to find more people putting you on ignore. You are a grown man, time to act like it...

 

 

None of these are available anymore but the ROM's sure are, it's why we write them:

 

AtariGames.JPG

Left hand edge, one down from the top. That is not even a game but a screenshot from the cult movie Pixels. Last I checked, it was still available on DVD/BluRay/streaming. Not sure what "ROM" you are referring to here...

[Mr SQL]

 

At the danger of feeding the troll, I'm replying to this as you're now starting to spread half-truths about my work. I remember the discussion you are referring to, and claiming I insulted you there is either a very long stretch, or my english is much worse than I thought; at any rate, it wasn't my intention. The word admitting is a pretty bizarre choice, too: there is nothing there to admit. The emulator is simply configured to do frame averaging by default, and I never claimed anything else --- it's even in the docs, for heaven's sake (check out the part "video settings") I won't enter an argument on why I implemented things this way. It's a setting, and you can change it if you don't like it. There will be more options for the rendering pipeline in the future, but my time is limited and my priorities are my own business. As for the your last claim, I have good news for you there: the emulation core is my own and was not derived from or based on any existing core.

 

To make this abundantly clear: I have no grudge with you whatsoever, but I am allergic to people that hurl half-truths and lies and try to evade verification of their claims. You can save your breath if you intend to continue this argument; all it will achieve is ending up on my ignore list.

 

To everyone else: sorry for the troll-bait and for derailing this thread even further.

 

Here you are doing exactly what you claim along with another programmer calling troll - funny because I was just trying to help you tune your emu to render properly on both threads. Go ahead and leave it merging frames by default but that is not what an Atari does and it makes some of my most interesting games fall apart; you didn't need to throw any insults over it then or now.

 

If you and the other programmer weren't trolling that thread please explain because that's what it looks like from your likes and your posts and the weird strange claims - "Alex is spot on. Every VCS game pumps out 60FPS, these is nothing special... stop making false claims about special properties of the video signal you generate"

 

STARBLITZ Party Games Edition is unobtainium but perhaps the most interesting novelty and research game that leverages the open ended architeture of the TIA to render many different video signals, here's a page from the manual.

 

No you can't have the ROM which puts the thread back on topic but anyone is free to discuss it, ignore it or claim it can't be done. You choose

 

[Atari PAC-MAN Fan]

Don't forget that there were also limited edition games like the AtariAge 2003 Holiday cart which was a promo for anyone purchasing over $50.

[Mr SQL]

Could you please do us a favor and drop the 30Hz mantra? 30Hz entire playfield flicker may not bother you, but it nauseates other gamers. And yes, there are people who can detect higher framerates like 50Hz or 60Hz. 60Hz is detectable but tolerable to me. My old Viewsonic monitor I ran at 1152x864@70Hz because it caused less fatigue than it's native 1280x1024@60Hz. And I'm thankful I didn't grow up in a PAL territory because 50Hz gives me headaches.

 

So for some of us, 30Hz on a couple player sprites may be fine as long as it's not the whole screen. People gave you honest feedback in the poll topic you posted regarding flicker, and you denounced our feedback because you didn't share the same sensibilities.

 

Your posts on other topics including this one tend to be off the wall. $130,000 for a homebrew? You pulled that statistic out of thin air? No homebrewer makes games for the money as you no doubt are well aware.

 

Quite frankly, I find your continued lack of ability to accept criticism while posting the same regurgitated stuff again and again to be quite disconcerting. Can't take it, well you shouldn't have asked for it. People give you their honest opinions and you take a dump on it.

 

Just don't be surprised to find more people putting you on ignore. You are a grown man, time to act like it...

 

 

Left hand edge, one down from the top. That is not even a game but a screenshot from the cult movie Pixels. Last I checked, it was still available on DVD/BluRay/streaming. Not sure what "ROM" you are referring to here...

 

That tile is live StarDust, you can play PIXELS or download it. I wrote it before the movie but it's the same theme so I renamed it.

 

You sent me PM's asking to buy my ROM's when they were unobtainium and I give you them for free last I checked, did anyone else do that with unobtainiums? The Pacman tatoo covering your back is pretty cool and actually qualified you for the free ROM's

 

You didn't answer my question on the other thread about the 30 HZ and 60 HZ flicker; slow down long enough to go back to that thread, you didn't catch it - I think it's pretty interesting that 60 HZ can flicker more than 30 HZ when you compare STARBLITZ to DEFENDER III you can see it quite clearly. You're an electrician with a bright mind, I'd like to hear your ideas on why it does.

[Albert]

Don't forget that there were also limited edition games like the AtariAge 2003 Holiday cart which was a promo for anyone purchasing over $50.

 

That's the only AtariAge Holiday Cart that wasn't later made available after the numbered copies were exhausted. But it wasn't really a game, it was a demo of Andrew Davie's ChronoColor technology. Fun as a giveaway, but it didn't really seem right to sell it. All the Holiday Carts that followed were a proper games, and thus it was more important for me to continue making them available.

 

..Al

[CPUWIZ]

Ohh, I have #7, must be worth $$$.

 

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

That's the only AtariAge Holiday Cart that wasn't later made available after the numbered copies were exhausted. But it wasn't really a game, it was a demo of Andrew Davie's ChronoColor technology. Fun as a giveaway, but it didn't really seem right to sell it. All the Holiday Carts that followed were a proper games, and thus it was more important for me to continue making them available.

 

..Al

I'm glad you did this with your holiday releases. I kinda wish RetroUSB did as well. I have all the 8-bit Xmas games from 2011 onwards and they are fun with blinky lights and holiday tunes.

 

And I also have all the reissued AA releases except Holiday QB, which can be picked up as QB without the holiday theme.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

You sent me PM's asking to buy my ROM's when they were unobtainium and I give you them for free last I checked, did anyone else do that with unobtainiums? The Pacman tatoo covering your back is pretty cool and actually qualified you for the free ROM's

Yes it is out there. Thank you for that. Funny you mention the tattoo. I actually copied the NES sprite back in 2011 when I got it, to use as a template instead of the Namco arcade sprite. Now the ink is forever. Whoops!

 

As for your questions regarding the 30/60Hz issues, yes I did answer them, repeatedly then you repeatedly again asked the same questions expecting a different response?

 

As a technical explanation, 60Hz does flicker more. So do fluorescent and Neon signage which have inverters which output high voltage signals in tens of thousands of Hertz. So one could argue the compact fluorescent lamps in your house flicker more. A whole lot more than a CRT display. And one can also argue that the sun is a giant strobe light, flickering once every 24 hours as the Earth rotates blocking it out of the sky. We get it. The brain is sensitive to oscillations picked up by the eyes and ears. Children hear from about 20Hz-20kHz. Adults this drops to about 16kHz on the high end and continues to decrease with age. I am not of the iPod generation so my hearing range is still very good, 12Hz-17kHz. At the extremely low end of the spectrum, I can feel the individual oscillations as the pressure rises and falls.

 

Eyes are a bit different, sensitive to electromagnetic radiation between 400-700nm. So a light source oscillating at an audible bass or infrasound frequency can be slower than the refresh rate of the rods and cones of our eyes, equivalent to shutter speed in a camera. So perception of flickering is definitely a byproduct of our ability to detect it. Various neural connections of the brain oscillate between 8-20Hz, generally slower when we are tired, sleeping, or sedated, and faster when we are wide awake and have adrenaline or stimulation. Optical strobing centered around the seizure rate of 15-18Hz can trigger epilectic seizures in people affected by the disease. Slower strobing can still be annoying but not likely to contribute to seizures or headaches.

 

Faster strobing below the threshold of perception, ie your 30Hz flicker fests, can cause eye strain and fatigue, headaches, and even migraines in some people. The effect is more pronounced the brighter the screen and the larger the surface area on the retina. So for the purposes of perception, faster does not equal "more" flicker. Just be aware that flickering at certain refresh rates can induce negative symptoms in certain individuals, and if these symptoms interfere with a player's enjoyment of a game, then he or she has little recourse but to stop playing. Judging by the overwhelmingly negative reaction to your flicker test polls, on both CRT and LCD displays, but especially CRTs, I was not alone in my sentiments and made my opinion heard.

 

Maybe you expected a different response by rephrasing the question? You asked for a more technical explaination of what happens in the brain and optic nerve; I am not a neurologist nor an optometrist nor pretend to be but I think I explained it well enough. I am done arguing with you. No more feeding the troll.

[Mr SQL]

Yes it is out there. Thank you for that. Funny you mention the tattoo. I actually copied the NES sprite back in 2011 when I got it, to use as a template instead of the Namco arcade sprite. Now the ink is forever. Whoops!

 

As for your questions regarding the 30/60Hz issues, yes I did answer them, repeatedly then you repeatedly again asked the same questions expecting a different response?

 

As a technical explanation, 60Hz does flicker more. So do fluorescent and Neon signage which have inverters which output high voltage signals in tens of thousands of Hertz. So one could argue the compact fluorescent lamps in your house flicker more. A whole lot more than a CRT display. And one can also argue that the sun is a giant strobe light, flickering once every 24 hours as the Earth rotates blocking it out of the sky. We get it. The brain is sensitive to oscillations picked up by the eyes and ears. Children hear from about 20Hz-20kHz. Adults this drops to about 16kHz on the high end and continues to decrease with age. I am not of the iPod generation so my hearing range is still very good, 12Hz-17kHz. At the extremely low end of the spectrum, I can feel the individual oscillations as the pressure rises and falls.

 

Eyes are a bit different, sensitive to electromagnetic radiation between 400-700nm. So a light source oscillating at an audible bass or infrasound frequency can be slower than the refresh rate of the rods and cones of our eyes, equivalent to shutter speed in a camera. So perception of flickering is definitely a byproduct of our ability to detect it. Various neural connections of the brain oscillate between 8-20Hz, generally slower when we are tired, sleeping, or sedated, and faster when we are wide awake and have adrenaline or stimulation. Optical strobing centered around the seizure rate of 15-18Hz can trigger epilectic seizures in people affected by the disease. Slower strobing can still be annoying but not likely to contribute to seizures or headaches.

 

Faster strobing below the threshold of perception, ie your 30Hz flicker fests, can cause eye strain and fatigue, headaches, and even migraines in some people. The effect is more pronounced the brighter the screen and the larger the surface area on the retina. So for the purposes of perception, faster does not equal "more" flicker. Just be aware that flickering at certain refresh rates can induce negative symptoms in certain individuals, and if these symptoms interfere with a player's enjoyment of a game, then he or she has little recourse but to stop playing. Judging by the overwhelmingly negative reaction to your flicker test polls, on both CRT and LCD displays, but especially CRTs, I was not alone in my sentiments and made my opinion heard.

 

Maybe you expected a different response by rephrasing the question? You asked for a more technical explaination of what happens in the brain and optic nerve; I am not a neurologist nor an optometrist nor pretend to be but I think I explained it well enough. I am done arguing with you. No more feeding the troll.

 

You are clearly knowledgeable about high potentials but going on about everything but what I asked you and then calling names instead of trying to answer the question. That's precocious since I did many of the things you are doing over 30 years ago and never felt the need to act like a know-it-all with older engineers, I learned from them instead.

 

Anyone can see playing those two games that the 60 HZ flicker is more perceptible than the 30 HZ flicker and it seems at first glance that it should not be so; it surprised me and I had to think about it for awhile. But you have no idea why that is so why not just say so instead of all that other stuff?

[Andromeda Stardust]

[high voltage]

Mr SQL.png

You're showing feelings.....

[high voltage]

Boulder Dash going cheap:

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/boulder-dash-atari-2600-box-atari-age-atariage-/152573817404?hash=item23861bb23c%3Ag%3Ah7wAAOSwlndZCfih&nma=true&si=bPvSemo7Xvu4wtJglsvXl5%252FKPeI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

 

Princess Rescue:

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/princess-rescue-atari-2600-atari-age-atariage-/152573819270?hash=item23861bb986%3Ag%3AnBgAAOSw7GRZCfwl&nma=true&si=bPvSemo7Xvu4wtJglsvXl5%252FKPeI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Edited June 15, 2017 by high voltage

[Thomas Jentzsch]

That's the one who asked 250€ multiple times before for Boulder Dash.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Good. Let that be a lesson to anyone who purchases homebrew as an investment.

[alex_79]

I'd like to apologize to everyone here for recently referencing the Star Castle debacle in another thread. It seems to me to be part of what has fueled Mr SQL arguments here. Again, I'm sorry.

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. We are (supposed to be) grown up people here, and you're not responsible for someone else's behaviour.

 

The guy is either knowingly trolling or he genuinely believes that the fact that he claims something should be considered proof enough by everyone.

 

Did he mentioned that his games "overclock" the TV? That's a classic.

 

[Andromeda Stardust]

Did he mentioned that his games "overclock" the TV? That's a classic.

 

Apples to oranges, but I "overclocked" a VGA monitor once with 1400x1050. It was only designed to do 1024 lines at 60Hz. I also had confidence my old View Sonic could have pulled off 1920x1080 at the wrong aspect ratio, but I sold it off long ago.

 

CRTs run at 15kHz and last I checked you cannot adjust the scanline length. You can, however shorten the scanline count until it rolls or exhibits odd behavior. This would push framerate beyond 60Hz.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Did he mentioned that his games "overclock" the TV? That's a classic.

He also believes that he can overstress an Atari 2600 emulator on today's hardware with his code.

[Mr SQL]

The guy is either knowingly trolling or he genuinely believes that the fact that he claims something should be considered proof enough by everyone.

 

Did he mentioned that his games "overclock" the TV? That's a classic.

 

 

 

The latter, because I have a programmatic example and you don't; You follow me around on threads calling troll and derailing the threads - you were apologizing on the Javatari thread I linked after trolling it, because it was plain to see you weren't there to have a conversation just to show how much smarter you were (without having to actually write any code). An Atari outputs a progressive signal but you insist there is no difference between fields and frames. Interlaced NTSC can only be 30 FPS but you claim it's 60 FPS.

 

If you like retro programming so much why not write some code? Your game is posting pictures that you ignore me or playing peekaboo to call names. You're not fooling anyone.

 

You set a bad example by encouraging StarDust to do the same thing; when I saw him call an Atari developer from bitd a pirate I pointed out he was the one down for OPP with the programmers ROM's on his Harmony and probably shouldn't go calling pirate. Then he apologized; so it seems we can both influence StarDust but there's a group of you teaching trolling - that's not very productive.

 

He also believes that he can overstress an Atari 2600 emulator on today's hardware with his code.

 

 

When Stella used software rendering by default KC fell apart but worked fine with the Glide wrappers/Open GL. Now it uses ActiveX/DrectX/Direct3D by default and that doesn't happen - except for a brief period last year where Microsoft changed the hooks on the API (caused problems with lots of 3rd party software not just Stella) and then had to change them back.

 

Mr SQL.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYSjijd57c0

[+stephena]

He also believes that he can overstress an Atari 2600 emulator on today's hardware with his code.

 

While it is possible for Stella to be slow if the host computer is old/slow enough, it isn't really anything to worry about on modern systems. I routinely measure this for performance issues, and on many systems the entire emulation takes 1ms per frame or less. Keep in mind that for a consistent 60fps you have 16.7ms per frame, so it's obvious that most of the time during a frame is sleep time (ie, the CPU is free to do other things). And that is seen on the OS level by the emulator taking essentially 0% time to run.

 

As for stressing the emulation, that's not the way things work. If it takes 1ms to render a frame, it will take 1ms no matter if the entire screen is being updated with each pixel being different (if that were even possible on he 2600), or if you're rendering all black. Once you have a computer fast enough to get 60fps, there is little you can do in the ROM to slow down the emulation itself. About the only thing that can slow it down is if you're also emulating ARM code (ie, DPC+, etc). Or maybe turning on extra TV filtering, etc. But nothing from the POV of the ROM code itself will slow things down.

[DirtyHairy]

As for stressing the emulation, that's not the way things work. If it takes 1ms to render a frame, it will take 1ms no matter if the entire screen is being updated with each pixel being different (if that were even possible on he 2600), or if you're rendering all black. Once you have a computer fast enough to get 60fps, there is little you can do in the ROM to slow down the emulation itself. About the only thing that can slow it down is if you're also emulating ARM code (ie, DPC+, etc). Or maybe turning on extra TV filtering, etc. But nothing from the POV of the ROM code itself will slow things down.

 

Actually, that is not 100% correct anymore with the new core It includes caching code that will skip TIA updates if the TIA state does not change. This can make a difference especially during vblank and overscan, but the efficiency of that mechanism is very much dependent on the ROM under consideration. For example, if I run Bang! (the demo) on 6502.ts and turn off rate limiting, the demo will run at 10MHz - 18MHz (emulated system clock) on my machine, depending on the scene being rendered. You can observe the same effect in Stella by monitoring CPU usage.

 

However, this is purely academic, no even remotely current system is going to be driven to its limit because of VCS emulation in Stella. This is not completely true for 6502.ts, in particular if ARM is involved --- Javascript is slower than native code. On my laptop, Stay Frosty 2 gets speed down to 7-8MHz due to ARM emulation, so slow systems can be struggeling.

Edited June 15, 2017 by DirtyHairy

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Well, between 7MHz and 60Hz is still a factor of ~100,000. When was it, that CPUs were that much slower?

[DirtyHairy]

Well, between 7MHz and 60Hz is still a factor of ~100,000. When was it, that CPUs were that much slower?

 

I just had a look on wikipedia, the Zuse Z4 already did something like 40Hz, all electromechanically with relays. Still, I am talking about the pixel clock, so that's more like a factor of two and for Stella I guess it is more like a factor of 5 - 10 --- still more than enough as a safety margin.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Ah, I was already almost wondering about you numbers.

 

Almost.

[+stephena]

 

Actually, that is not 100% correct anymore with the new core It includes caching code that will skip TIA updates if the TIA state does not change. This can make a difference especially during vblank and overscan, but the efficiency of that mechanism is very much dependent on the ROM under consideration. For example, if I run Bang! (the demo) on 6502.ts and turn off rate limiting, the demo will run at 10MHz - 18MHz (emulated system clock) on my machine, depending on the scene being rendered. You can observe the same effect in Stella by monitoring CPU usage.

 

True, but my statements were for the worst case. Skipping TIA updates speeds things up, and is the best case. In no case will usage ever go past 1-2 ms per frame on modern hardware. If anyone is seeing huge CPU spikes on modern systems, it's probably because the VSYNC that their video card is using is using a busy-wait vs. page-flipping.

 

EDIT: I see what you mean. Previously, best and worst case were essentially the same. Now, best case can be faster, but under no circumstances is worst case slower (barring more CPU usage for more accurate emulation, which I don't count since the whole point of the emulator is to have accurate emulation).

[Keatah]

S. You mean a blit operation vs flip operation?