[SPOILERS] The Lost Caves of Kroz Hint Thread

[IntellivisionDude]

 

 

 

I think one of the main reasons i made this, is because i had so much trouble figuring this one out. I was stuck for the longest time. i thought that timer was so unfair LOL.

And i will admit i beat this game 3 times and never noticed the hole on the bottom right hand of the screen until today. DOH.

And i thought it would be completely impossible to get the white key and get back out the other way. But i found a way.

[+intvsteve]

Ah, interesting. I must have been NOT standing in a 'hole' when the pipes reset and gotten killed and just discarded such a strategy.

 

Of course, no time bonus using the 'wait' technique. If you finish a puzzle fast enough, you get extra bonus points. Also, picking up coins gives you more points, too. Kroz isn't a traditional high score type of game - but points can be a way to measure 'level of mastery'.

[+grips03]

I'm thinking of doing some room specific videos. Would anybody be against that? I won't do every one unless requested. But there a few i'd like to do. The one i want to do the most is Level 28 Timed Slider Maze. I want to show the quick solution i came up with, plus i want to experiment.

There are still some things i never did figure out like getting the key and getting back out.

 

And also on Level 21 i never figured out how to extend the timer. I was just lucky and solved it with barely a few seconds on the clock.

I think people wold like level 29 (warp)

Edited December 8, 2014 by grips03

[IntellivisionDude]

I think people wold like level 29 (warp)

 

I will go record that right now

[IntellivisionDude]

[+grips03]

I remember that bug

[+intvsteve]

Ah, this one... It was found, but not fixed. Here are some thoughts, in case anyone cares to read them.

 

The Elevator Explanation (or: tl;dr)

Fixing the bug might break something else, and validating it will take a great deal of testing effort.

 

The Marketing Explanation (or: Stupid Engineers. We'll have to save their bacon. Again.)

Print yourself up a slip of paper to insert into the box. Any monochrome, decent quality printer will do. Have it say:

 

Rogues and Assassins may be able to explore some immensely dangerous areas of the Caves that a lowly Thief does not have the skills to reach. Such explorations are typically lethal, so proceed with caution!

 

 

The Engineering Explanation (or: Crap, I thought we were going to fix that!)

Yep, we did find that bug, but it wasn't fixed. Kroz is a huge game, and complex. During testing and bug fixing phases in *any* software, any change / bug fix has some likelihood of either uncovering another existing bug, or introducing a new one. (In my day job, we just went through a meatgrinder of several months worth of this.) Every single bug fix has risk. You hope that the only effect of the change is to fix the bug. Sometimes, though, you get a 'bug multiplication factor' where fixing one bug may expose two others.

 

In the case of this bug:

• The bug is non-fatal to the game. I.e. it's impact is no different than walking into a laser, standing too close to a bomb that explodes, etc.
• When this one came up, we were already at the stage where fixing other bugs in related code had proven risky
• Kroz's release was already much later than intended, and this was past the point of diminishing returns

The Management Explanation (or: We're already a year late! Unless loss of life or limb is imminent, stop dicking around and ship it!)

The team put a tremendous amount of time and effort into shaking out bugs, and we had many ideas for other tweaks, improvements, features, and enhancements. With the orders already taken, and costs sunk into materials, some extremely difficult decisions had to be made.

 

Paramount were:

• Can players enjoy and complete the game?
• Have we fixed all problems fatal to the game? (I.e. are any rooms unsolvable, does the game crash)
• Have we addressed non-fatal, but egregiously bad problems in the game?
• Will it behave consistently on the various versions of Intellivision hardware? (PAL, I'm looking at you, bub!)

Releasing the game to the wider audience is pins-and-needles. Will people like it? Is it too hard? Too easy? Did we get *all* the crashes? It's a stressful time for some, especially after having invested so much time and effort.

 

I was going to put a Sales section in here and complete the circle of blame, but this is already tl;dr territory.

 

Ultimately, like with any game, some will like it, others, not so much. It's certainly something that's never been done before on the Intellivision. Hopefully it's a rousing success that will help foster more new games for our favorite system!

Edited December 8, 2014 by intvsteve

[IntellivisionDude]

Hopefully it's a rousing success that will help foster more new games for our favorite system!

 

I hope it is a success because i'm already wanting a sequel. LOL

[First Spear]

Illness averted. My game arrived today! Time to stop doing whatever it is I normally do and play a bit... BBL.

 

 

I pre-ordered this game waaay back and still don't have it. If I see you guys having much more fun, I'm going to be ill.

 

[Place Logo Here]

Finished the game tonight (on the easiest level, of course).

 

First, kudos to all involved for making this the kind of game that has been solely missing for the Intellivision, and this proves the console is more than up to the challenge of something along the lines of the Zelda series. If anybody is also into the Atari 8-bit computers, J.D. Casten's "Biffdrop" games which were published in Antic Magazine in the early 80's are a similar mix of puzzles and action. And, oh yes, lasers...lots of lasers.

 

Speaking of which, there are two levels in Kroz that are a bit of a thorn in my side. One is "Columns of II", but everything I could say about it has already been said before. But the other one is "More Lasers", which I thought was ridiculously tight on timing. Both of these levels crossed the line into "c'mon, this just isn't fun anymore". And this is from somebody who, upon finally completing the latter, breezed through to the last three puzzle rooms before calling it a night.

 

And I only completed those two troublesome levels with the assistance of IntellivisionDude's videos. I was very careful to only watch enough to see just past where I was stuck. Turned out I was so close to completing "Columns of II" so many times that I think I might have arranged the columns in every possible configuration except the right one. Thanks for the videos, IntellivisionDude.

[IntellivisionDude]

Finished the game tonight (on the easiest level, of course).

 

First, kudos to all involved for making this the kind of game that has been solely missing for the Intellivision, and this proves the console is more than up to the challenge of something along the lines of the Zelda series. If anybody is also into the Atari 8-bit computers, J.D. Casten's "Biffdrop" games which were published in Antic Magazine in the early 80's are a similar mix of puzzles and action. And, oh yes, lasers...lots of lasers.

 

Speaking of which, there are two levels in Kroz that are a bit of a thorn in my side. One is "Columns of II", but everything I could say about it has already been said before. But the other one is "More Lasers", which I thought was ridiculously tight on timing. Both of these levels crossed the line into "c'mon, this just isn't fun anymore". And this is from somebody who, upon finally completing the latter, breezed through to the last three puzzle rooms before calling it a night.

 

And I only completed those two troublesome levels with the assistance of IntellivisionDude's videos. I was very careful to only watch enough to see just past where I was stuck. Turned out I was so close to completing "Columns of II" so many times that I think I might have arranged the columns in every possible configuration except the right one. Thanks for the videos, IntellivisionDude.

 

Awesome, congrats.

[wolfy62]

Ah, this one... It was found, but not fixed. Here are some thoughts, in case anyone cares to read them.

 

The Elevator Explanation (or: tl;dr)

Fixing the bug might break something else, and validating it will take a great deal of testing effort.

 

The Marketing Explanation (or: Stupid Engineers. We'll have to save their bacon. Again.)

Print yourself up a slip of paper to insert into the box. Any monochrome, decent quality printer will do. Have it say:

 

Rogues and Assassins may be able to explore some immensely dangerous areas of the Caves that a lowly Thief does not have the skills to reach. Such explorations are typically lethal, so proceed with caution!

 

 

The Engineering Explanation (or: Crap, I thought we were going to fix that!)

Yep, we did find that bug, but it wasn't fixed. Kroz is a huge game, and complex. During testing and bug fixing phases in *any* software, any change / bug fix has some likelihood of either uncovering another existing bug, or introducing a new one. (In my day job, we just went through a meatgrinder of several months worth of this.) Every single bug fix has risk. You hope that the only effect of the change is to fix the bug. Sometimes, though, you get a 'bug multiplication factor' where fixing one bug may expose two others.

 

In the case of this bug:

• The bug is non-fatal to the game. I.e. it's impact is no different than walking into a laser, standing too close to a bomb that explodes, etc.
• When this one came up, we were already at the stage where fixing other bugs in related code had proven risky
• Kroz's release was already much later than intended, and this was past the point of diminishing returns

The Management Explanation (or: We're already a year late! Unless loss of life or limb is imminent, stop dicking around and ship it!)

The team put a tremendous amount of time and effort into shaking out bugs, and we had many ideas for other tweaks, improvements, features, and enhancements. With the orders already taken, and costs sunk into materials, some extremely difficult decisions had to be made.

 

Paramount were:

• Can players enjoy and complete the game?
• Have we fixed all problems fatal to the game? (I.e. are any rooms unsolvable, does the game crash)
• Have we addressed non-fatal, but egregiously bad problems in the game?
• Will it behave consistently on the various versions of Intellivision hardware? (PAL, I'm looking at you, bub!)

Releasing the game to the wider audience is pins-and-needles. Will people like it? Is it too hard? Too easy? Did we get *all* the crashes? It's a stressful time for some, especially after having invested so much time and effort.

 

I was going to put a Sales section in here and complete the circle of blame, but this is already tl;dr territory.

 

Ultimately, like with any game, some will like it, others, not so much. It's certainly something that's never been done before on the Intellivision. Hopefully it's a rousing success that will help foster more new games for our favorite system!

I am certain all you folks put more than enough effort and love into this game. My friend has my copy and i am sure I will be thrilled with it when I get it. Thank you all, great work! If it has a few glitches I am sure they wont bother me in the least.....if I even make it that far in the game! And thank you for providing hints, I will need those for sure. Cheers, Wolfy

[+intvsteve]

I am certain all you folks put more than enough effort and love into this game. My friend has my copy and i am sure I will be thrilled with it when I get it. Thank you all, great work! If it has a few glitches I am sure they wont bother me in the least.....if I even make it that far in the game! And thank you for providing hints, I will need those for sure. Cheers, Wolfy

Hope you'll enjoy it.

 

Something surprised me during the late, frantic testing process. I'd done almost all my testing in 'easy' mode -- grips was the true champion, blazing ahead on Assassin. But in the final 'cheat free' test (on PAL) I promised to go through on Rogue, which introduces a great deal more challenge, since some rooms are timed. If you don't finish those rooms fast enough, you're booted and have to restart the puzzle.

 

You'd think that after having gone through the game many times and "knowing" the puzzles over several months that it would be kind of a gauntlet of tedium. So for me the surprise was how much more gratifying it felt to beat the puzzles with the added challenge of the timer on those rooms. Yes, frustrating, and there were a couple times where, for the physical integrity of the console, I had to walk away for awhile. (My oldest original unit still bears a few dents of frustration, I'm embarrassed to say.) But, man, it felt gratifying to whip a puzzle with the added risk.

 

One concern we've had is -- will it hold replay value once you've beaten the game? Well, that's ultimately an individual preference, just like with any game. Why play Astrosmash again? Or Bump 'n' Jump? Or any game, really? In Kroz, there are so many puzzles that, as IntellivisionDude can attest, you may not recall right away the solution to any particular room. So there's always the challenge of improving your score by getting all the coins and / or completing puzzles faster. The faster you complete them, the more bonus points you get.

 

Plus, it's so big, it's not like you're going to just sit down and play for 20 minutes and "win".

[IntellivisionDude]

Hope you'll enjoy it.

 

Something surprised me during the late, frantic testing process. I'd done almost all my testing in 'easy' mode -- grips was the true champion, blazing ahead on Assassin. But in the final 'cheat free' test (on PAL) I promised to go through on Rogue, which introduces a great deal more challenge, since some rooms are timed. If you don't finish those rooms fast enough, you're booted and have to restart the puzzle.

 

You'd think that after having gone through the game many times and "knowing" the puzzles over several months that it would be kind of a gauntlet of tedium. So for me the surprise was how much more gratifying it felt to beat the puzzles with the added challenge of the timer on those rooms. Yes, frustrating, and there were a couple times where, for the physical integrity of the console, I had to walk away for awhile. (My oldest original unit still bears a few dents of frustration, I'm embarrassed to say.) But, man, it felt gratifying to whip a puzzle with the added risk.

 

One concern we've had is -- will it hold replay value once you've beaten the game? Well, that's ultimately an individual preference, just like with any game. Why play Astrosmash again? Or Bump 'n' Jump? Or any game, really? In Kroz, there are so many puzzles that, as IntellivisionDude can attest, you may not recall right away the solution to any particular room. So there's always the challenge of improving your score by getting all the coins and / or completing puzzles faster. The faster you complete them, the more bonus points you get.

 

Plus, it's so big, it's not like you're going to just sit down and play for 20 minutes and "win".

 

Yes, on Assassin i made it on a few levels with literally a couple seconds on the clock. You have to be quick and precise or you won't complete it. lol

 

I don't want to brag but i did finish my first attempt at Assassin in one sitting in about 4-5 hours. I should of recorded it.

 

There is a lot of replayability. I know i can do better. Either on score or time. I'm actually more interested in how fast i can beat it vs score.

[IntellivisionDude]

[IntellivisionDude]

One more Kroz video. Possibly my last playthrough video at least. But i wanted to do one for Assassin mode. I probably will stick with Thief mode for casual play. Levels 18 and 30 on Assassin are just brutal and push my nerves to the limit. It took my nerves and twisted them and spit them out lol. In my opinion the 2 hardest levels in the game (On Assassin Mode).

 

 

[KnechtRuprecht]

One more Kroz video. Possibly my last playthrough video at least. But i wanted to do one for Assassin mode. I probably will stick with Thief mode for casual play. Levels 18 and 30 on Assassin are just brutal and push my nerves to the limit. It took my nerves and twisted them and spit them out lol. In my opinion the 2 hardest levels in the game (On Assassin Mode).

 

 

 

It was enlightening watching you play/critique the game. You have solutions for some rooms that I never even thought of as well as a solution for a small bug that wasn't picked up by the testers.

 

Transporter coils: The man sometimes walks off the second coil where he reappears and into danger. This happens if the disc is pressed too long while entering the first coil. I noticed you set up a statue to stop his movement in one level, which is a clever idea. I've already fixed this for the sequels. I'll fix the Kroz version of it as well.

 

Fire Skull: I didn't even consider going through the eyes. When I saw that, my first reaction was: "hey, he's cheating!"

 

Madd Elmor: Originally he shot fireballs from both hands. I think the testers copies of the game have that version of Elmor. It was insanely difficult unless you happened to figure out the 'sweet spot' in the sequence, which apparently you did in your first video.

 

In hindsight I wish I had the bosses increase in difficulty with each difficulty level.

 

Level 27: Timed Slider Maze (Spoiler Alert!!): I didn't consider sitting in a 'hole' in the pipe maze when it resets. That's a clever idea. And I always considered that white key in the bottom left of the screen a bit of a red herring. My method was to enter the Skull Room and grab the white key from there, then scoot back up, open the white door, throw the switch and get rid of all the horizontal or vertical Slider Pipes.

 

There are a few other things I've noticed you missed, and I may have mentioned them elsewhere. But, I'll keep the solutions to myself as I think some hints to the first game may appear in the second installment of the series.

 

Off topic: I probably shouldn't be letting this out so early, however, I am currently messing around with a sequel to Kroz, tentitively titled 'Fortress Skull' or 'The Four Skulls', that will include the typical Kroz-style puzzle solving but with an added dungeon crawl/fighting element. Therefore, there will be three ways to play the game--either through solving puzzle room or running through caverns and dungeons beating up monsters and bosses, or both. All methods will offer a different ending. On the wish list: I hope to flesh out the main character with a name and a bit more of a past and add some 'dialogue driven action' between him and certain mobs.

 

A third installment will potentially remove 75-80 per cent of the puzzle solving element and focus on fighting monsters but with more robust armour/weapon/vital stats/inventory elements and possibly side quests and such.

Edited January 12, 2015 by KnechtRuprecht

[IntellivisionDude]

 

It was enlightening watching you play/critique the game. You have solutions for some rooms that I never even thought of as well as a solution for a small bug that wasn't picked up by the testers.

 

Transporter coils: The man sometimes walks off the second coil where he reappears and into danger. This happens if the disc is pressed too long while entering the first coil. I noticed you set up a statue to stop his movement in one level, which is a clever idea. I've already fixed this for the sequels. I'll fix the Kroz version of it as well.

 

Fire Skull: I didn't even consider going through the eyes. When I saw that, my first reaction was: "hey, he's cheating!"

 

Madd Elmor: Originally he shot fireballs from both hands. I think the testers copies of the game have that version of Elmor. It was insanely difficult unless you happened to figure out the 'sweet spot' in the sequence, which apparently you did in your first video.

 

In hindsight I wish I had the bosses increase in difficulty with each difficulty level.

 

Level 27: Timed Slider Maze (Spoiler Alert!!): I didn't consider sitting in a 'hole' in the pipe maze when it resets. That's a clever idea. And I always considered that white key in the bottom left of the screen a bit of a red herring. My method was to enter the Skull Room and grab the white key from there, then scoot back up, open the white door, throw the switch and get rid of all the horizontal or vertical Slider Pipes.

 

There are a few other things I've noticed you missed, and I may have mentioned them elsewhere. But, I'll keep the solutions to myself as I think some hints to the first game may appear in the second installment of the series.

 

I probably shouldn't be letting this out so early, however, I am currently messing around with a sequel to Kroz, tentitively titled 'Fortress Skull' or 'The Four Skulls', that will include the typical Kroz-style puzzle solving but with an added dungeon crawl/fighting element. Therefore, there will be three ways to play the game--either through solving puzzle room or running through caverns and dungeons beating up monsters and bosses, or both. All methods will offer a different ending. On the wish list: I hope to flesh out the main character with a name and a bit more of a past and add some 'dialogue driven action' between him and certain mobs.

 

A third installment will potentially remove 75-80 per cent of the puzzle solving element and focus on fighting monsters but with more robust armour/weapon/vital stats/inventory elements and possibly side quests and such.

 

 

Actually someone else told me about going through the eyes on the fire skull. I did it the hard way going through his mouth the first time i played it. lol

 

I am definitely looking forward to the sequels. The puzzles if what i like the most. But fighting is cool too.

 

I hope someday you do post solutions. There a few rooms i would to know the proper solution vs my solution.

 

Looks like i need to do some more searching for secrets.

[KnechtRuprecht]

 

Actually someone else told me about going through the eyes on the fire skull. I did it the hard way going through his mouth the first time i played it. lol

 

I am definitely looking forward to the sequels. The puzzles if what i like the most. But fighting is cool too.

 

I hope someday you do post solutions. There a few rooms i would to know the proper solution vs my solution.

 

Looks like i need to do some more searching for secrets.

 

 

Yes, I was thinking of doing a complete walk-through on the medium skill level and point out some differences between your methods and mine. Perhaps in the next few weeks.

[KnechtRuprecht]

 

Yes, on Assassin i made it on a few levels with literally a couple seconds on the clock. You have to be quick and precise or you won't complete it. lol

 

I don't want to brag but i did finish my first attempt at Assassin in one sitting in about 4-5 hours. I should of recorded it.

 

There is a lot of replayability. I know i can do better. Either on score or time. I'm actually more interested in how fast i can beat it vs score.

 

 

Each room does have an undocumented 'time to beat' that awards you points if you should beat it. You'll know you beat that time when the score tally appears after getting each crown.

 

A long while back, there was some code written for a best time for each level. I removed it because there initially wasn't space for it. This was before I had access to Joe's cart improvements.

[KnechtRuprecht]

Ah, this one... It was found, but not fixed. Here are some thoughts, in case anyone cares to read them.

 

The Elevator Explanation (or: tl;dr)

Fixing the bug might break something else, and validating it will take a great deal of testing effort.

 

The Marketing Explanation (or: Stupid Engineers. We'll have to save their bacon. Again.)

Print yourself up a slip of paper to insert into the box. Any monochrome, decent quality printer will do. Have it say:

 

Rogues and Assassins may be able to explore some immensely dangerous areas of the Caves that a lowly Thief does not have the skills to reach. Such explorations are typically lethal, so proceed with caution!

 

 

The Engineering Explanation (or: Crap, I thought we were going to fix that!)

Yep, we did find that bug, but it wasn't fixed. Kroz is a huge game, and complex. During testing and bug fixing phases in *any* software, any change / bug fix has some likelihood of either uncovering another existing bug, or introducing a new one. (In my day job, we just went through a meatgrinder of several months worth of this.) Every single bug fix has risk. You hope that the only effect of the change is to fix the bug. Sometimes, though, you get a 'bug multiplication factor' where fixing one bug may expose two others.

 

In the case of this bug:

• The bug is non-fatal to the game. I.e. it's impact is no different than walking into a laser, standing too close to a bomb that explodes, etc.
• When this one came up, we were already at the stage where fixing other bugs in related code had proven risky
• Kroz's release was already much later than intended, and this was past the point of diminishing returns

The Management Explanation (or: We're already a year late! Unless loss of life or limb is imminent, stop dicking around and ship it!)

The team put a tremendous amount of time and effort into shaking out bugs, and we had many ideas for other tweaks, improvements, features, and enhancements. With the orders already taken, and costs sunk into materials, some extremely difficult decisions had to be made.

 

Paramount were:

• Can players enjoy and complete the game?
• Have we fixed all problems fatal to the game? (I.e. are any rooms unsolvable, does the game crash)
• Have we addressed non-fatal, but egregiously bad problems in the game?
• Will it behave consistently on the various versions of Intellivision hardware? (PAL, I'm looking at you, bub!)

Releasing the game to the wider audience is pins-and-needles. Will people like it? Is it too hard? Too easy? Did we get *all* the crashes? It's a stressful time for some, especially after having invested so much time and effort.

 

I was going to put a Sales section in here and complete the circle of blame, but this is already tl;dr territory.

 

Ultimately, like with any game, some will like it, others, not so much. It's certainly something that's never been done before on the Intellivision. Hopefully it's a rousing success that will help foster more new games for our favorite system!

 

 

Ah, this one... It was found, but not fixed. Here are some thoughts, in case anyone cares to read them.

 

The Elevator Explanation (or: tl;dr)

Fixing the bug might break something else, and validating it will take a great deal of testing effort.

 

The Marketing Explanation (or: Stupid Engineers. We'll have to save their bacon. Again.)

Print yourself up a slip of paper to insert into the box. Any monochrome, decent quality printer will do. Have it say:

 

Rogues and Assassins may be able to explore some immensely dangerous areas of the Caves that a lowly Thief does not have the skills to reach. Such explorations are typically lethal, so proceed with caution!

 

 

The Engineering Explanation (or: Crap, I thought we were going to fix that!)

Yep, we did find that bug, but it wasn't fixed. Kroz is a huge game, and complex. During testing and bug fixing phases in *any* software, any change / bug fix has some likelihood of either uncovering another existing bug, or introducing a new one. (In my day job, we just went through a meatgrinder of several months worth of this.) Every single bug fix has risk. You hope that the only effect of the change is to fix the bug. Sometimes, though, you get a 'bug multiplication factor' where fixing one bug may expose two others.

 

In the case of this bug:

• The bug is non-fatal to the game. I.e. it's impact is no different than walking into a laser, standing too close to a bomb that explodes, etc.
• When this one came up, we were already at the stage where fixing other bugs in related code had proven risky
• Kroz's release was already much later than intended, and this was past the point of diminishing returns

The Management Explanation (or: We're already a year late! Unless loss of life or limb is imminent, stop dicking around and ship it!)

The team put a tremendous amount of time and effort into shaking out bugs, and we had many ideas for other tweaks, improvements, features, and enhancements. With the orders already taken, and costs sunk into materials, some extremely difficult decisions had to be made.

 

Paramount were:

• Can players enjoy and complete the game?
• Have we fixed all problems fatal to the game? (I.e. are any rooms unsolvable, does the game crash)
• Have we addressed non-fatal, but egregiously bad problems in the game?
• Will it behave consistently on the various versions of Intellivision hardware? (PAL, I'm looking at you, bub!)

Releasing the game to the wider audience is pins-and-needles. Will people like it? Is it too hard? Too easy? Did we get *all* the crashes? It's a stressful time for some, especially after having invested so much time and effort.

 

I was going to put a Sales section in here and complete the circle of blame, but this is already tl;dr territory.

 

Ultimately, like with any game, some will like it, others, not so much. It's certainly something that's never been done before on the Intellivision. Hopefully it's a rousing success that will help foster more new games for our favorite system!

 

I thought it had been fixed as well, until I saw IntellivisionDude's video.

[Sinjinhawke]

Just finished this cartridge.  What a great game.  Also the game designer has a thing for disco floor puzzles.

 

Should I go through and play again on the LTO version?  Probably should try Miner 2049 now.