RVG Interviews John Mathieson.

[+Stephen]

First of all, were did you get those Gran Turismo 2 numbers?, i tought it was 320*240 at 25 FPS. Your numbers are way too high.

 

Your comparison is unfair, Gran Tursimo 2 was released in late 1999, 5 years after the release of the Playstation, a game done by an inhouse team from Sony, whom had tons and tons of budget an resources (like the Playstation Analyser) to push the console to its limits. Besides, you only need a Playstation first generation racer like Ridge Racer to beat anything the Jaguar released, hehe.

Damn, do i sound like a bitter Jag fan, or what?, hehe.

There was a cheat mode that could be activated, which I believe showed replays of the game in hi-res.

 

Don't worry about sounding like (or being) a bitter Jag fan. I'm not knew to the scene, I've had my Jag since 94 so went through all the initial hype, the let downs, and everything that followed after

[JagChris]

With everyone saying that AVP (not even true 3D), Skyhammer, and Iron Soldier, then yes. I like my Jag, I own an almost complete collection. But it was not a good machine for 3D, plain and simple.

 

I absolutely agree that it wasn't good at 3D. But I don't believe AvP pushed the Jag in the 2.5D area either. AvP does look beautiful with those high color walls and the items and phot-real sprites.

 

The Jaguar is just really good at beautiful scaling sprites. The Aliens in AvP look awesome. Aren't they compressed? Have you guys ever seen the Aliens on Alien Trilogy for the Saturn. Oh they are butchered when they scale. My Saturn takes the sprites it scales and butchers them it seems. Looks like Jason Vorhees got hold of them.

[Lost Dragon]

Alien Trilogy on PS1 looked horrible in terms of Alien and face hugger sprites, after coming from Jag AVP i found them a massive step back.Might have been motion captured (anyone recal the tech demo Acclaim released early on showcasing it's state of the art motion capture tech? Marine being shadowed by an Alien?).The face hugger in particular looked blocky as hell when it grabbed you.

 

Alien Res. did a far better FPS Aliens game on PS1 than Probes effort in all respect and that started off as a 3rd person affair before being scrapped and re-done from scratch, despite being nearly complete.Team just did'nt think 3rd person viewpoint generated the essential atmosphere.

[JagChris]

I'm not sure about the PS1 but my Saturn just seems to like butchering scaled sprites. Another example is that Aerosmith shooter The Revolution or New Order Nation or I can't remember the name of it. When those sprites and characters scale they are little more than blobs and hideous ugly.

 

I'm ashamed to admit I still find the game fun though.

[NeoGeoNinja]

Yeah, Alien Res. for PS1 was (is!) and excellent game. Really, very well done. T'was the first dual stick FPS title I ever played on PS too. Quake II enabled dual stick usage, but they got the sticks the wrong way around without the ability to change them. So I go with the 'Turok' layout for that one instead.

 

Might get some one to re-wire me a dedicated pad for Quake II (PS1) one of these days though. Imagine it would be pretty cool through dual sticks...

[NeoGeoNinja]

I'm not sure about the PS1 but my Saturn just seems to like butchering scaled sprites. Another example is that Aerosmith shooter The Revolution or New Order Nation or I can't remember the name of it. When those sprites and characters scale they are little more than blobs and hideous ugly.

 

I'm ashamed to admit I still find the game fun though.

 

Saturn sprite scaling isn't the best. The worst example I can think of is the highly regarded Guardian Heroes. The sprites look (only) reasonable at a distance, but scale horrifically when the action heats up. It's a title that is regarded as a 2D showcase for the Saturn, but I have never once understood why tbh. Great 'game', but graphically... it's just okay imo. MSH vs SF or SFZ3 are much more apt graphical showcases imo.

[Willard]

I think people unfairly compare the Jaguar to consoles that came out a year or more later. The hardware was notably older.

 

Additionally, most of the launch titles on consoles like the PSX weren't all that impressive either, it was nearly two years after the Jaguar was released that games on the PSX / N64 really started to form the benchmark of what most people think of as "32-bit" today.

 

And IMO the fact that the Jaguar never really got a hands down "good" 3D games was Atari's fault for not putting the resources into it. That plus mass development of 3D games was just beginning, and a lot of progress was made (and continues to be made) at a very fast pace around the time the Jaguar was launched. Ridge Racer, for example, came out around the same time the Jaguar was launched. There was a whole year to get it on the PSX. Battle Arena Toshiden came out in 1995. Atari didn't have the chance to see those games before the Jaguar came out, and there weren't a whole lot of decent 3D games like that to port over at launch either. Even if Atari did have the opportunity, they were so stingy you wonder if they would've.

 

The graphics of Fight For Life stand up against games like Battle Arena Toshiden and is hindered not by the Jaguar's ability to handle the graphics, but rather the lack of talent among the team responsible for the graphics. With a little tweaking I wouldn't be surprised if the engine could've been adapted to Battle Arena Toshiden.

 

I was stunned by Missile Command 3D (VR MODE) the first time I saw it. I think it was the last 3D game for the Jaguar I played and was very impressed. Martin Brownlow spent only about 8 months on it IIRC, it shows how a good coder can do what they wanted to with the hardware. He has some other notable credits like progamming on MDK and engineer on titanfall.

 

Zone Hunter was being worked on for the Jaguar- that would've really blown alot of people away. I just think Atari terribly mismanaged the system and although we get some games that kind of show what could've been done, alot is left up to your imagination but with more resources and a bigger budgets for more expansive games the Jaguar could've been a really impressive system. That, and had Atari worked faster to have more impressive games available sooner.

[Lost Dragon]

I'm just thinking back to 1st games i got on my PS1:

Ridge Racer and Toh Shin Den i bought with it (as the LOOK AT THIS!!!!! games you had to have to show yer mates :-) ).Then recal not getting on with Wipeout, just kept hitting the bleedin walls (2097 was perfection mind).Destuction derby was sweet, Crazy Ivan-looked great but meh to play...Lone Solider, god..Lone Solider Commando in 3D it was'nt....

Think i put the most hours in on Xcom which was just enhanced Amiga game, looked rough but omg it became a legend in my gaming life.

Always hoped Alien Res.would of been converted to DC and had keyboard and mouse controls, that an Warzone 2100 i had high hopes for in terms of PS1 to DC conversions.

Totally off topic mind...

[Lost Dragon]

Back slightly on topic..that Sega/Atari deal, after Atari sued Sega, would that, in principle have allowed Atari to 'bring' conversions of older Sega coin-ops to the Jaguar? so say whilst 32X had Afterburner and Space Harrier, Jaguar could of had Outrun, Powerdrift, Super Hang On etc or do 'we' think Sega knew they wanted to keep these for Saturn etc?

 

 

Jaguar hardware should of handled games like this quite well i'd of thought, if Super Burnout was anything to go by.

 

UK press would still of gone WAHHHH Not what we want on 64 Bit though, i'm sure.

[+remowilliams]

The graphics of Fight For Life stand up against games like Battle Arena Toshiden and is hindered not by the Jaguar's ability to handle the graphics, but rather the lack of talent among the team responsible for the graphics. With a little tweaking I wouldn't be surprised if the engine could've been adapted to Battle Arena Toshiden.

 

 

 

[Willard]

...

 

I don't mean 1:1 necessarily (but I wouldn't be shocked if the Jaguar could handle toshiden), but I think enough of the game could've been there on the Jaguar's FFL engine that had it come out in 1994 on the Jaguar it could've been just as highly regarded as the versoin tha came out in '95 on the PSX.

 

IMO the biggest difference between FFL and much better early poly fighters are the sloppy models and abuse of highly detailed textures that emphaize the sharp edges on the characters where alot of PSX games like resident evil and toshiden used softer skin textures so its less noticable.

 

[Austin]

 

Saturn sprite scaling isn't the best. The worst example I can think of is the highly regarded Guardian Heroes. The sprites look (only) reasonable at a distance, but scale horrifically when the action heats up. It's a title that is regarded as a 2D showcase for the Saturn, but I have never once understood why tbh. Great 'game', but graphically... it's just okay imo. MSH vs SF or SFZ3 are much more apt graphical showcases imo.

 

Eh.. I think that was intentional by design. Don't forget how much crap was happening on screen in that game and the amount of slowdown it had as-is. Compromises had to be made (the RAM cart wasn't even a thing at the time of Guardian Heroes' release so using that would have been out of the question).

[JagChris]

 

I don't mean 1:1 necessarily (but I wouldn't be shocked if the Jaguar could handle toshiden), but I think enough of the game could've been there on the Jaguar's FFL engine that had it come out in 1994 on the Jaguar it could've been just as highly regarded as the versoin tha came out in '95 on the PSX.

 

IMO the biggest difference between FFL and much better early poly fighters are the sloppy models and abuse of highly detailed textures that emphaize the sharp edges on the characters where alot of PSX games like resident evil and toshiden used softer skin textures so its less noticable.

 

FFLTSHDN.JPG

 

 

I'm of the thought that better could of been done on the Jaguar than FFL but it couldn't of been just like Battle Arena Toshinden on the Saturn. The Saturn is way more suited for 3D than the Jaguar and rivals the PSX in its ability to do so.

[Lost Dragon]

Only going on what i've read over the years, but did'nt Saturn use Quads, when everyone else was doing 3 sided triangles, in terms of 3D.Logic being you did'nt get the 'warping' you saw on PS1 games, but a lot of coders found it something of an issue?.

 

I've got an interview 'out' with a chap who was of the opinion the Saturn was a match for the PS1 in terms of 3d, once you coded for the hardware properly, i'll be interested to hear his replies as the media loved to paint the Saturn as the 'weaker' machine in terms of 3D, where as it seems you just needed to work the hardware harder to achieve it.

 

When i bought my Saturn, few years after i had a PS1, i was amazed at things like VF2, Sega Rally, Panzer Dragon Series etc.

[NeoGeoNinja]

IMO the biggest difference between FFL and much better early poly fighters are the sloppy models and abuse of highly detailed textures that emphaize the sharp edges on the characters...

 

Not forgetting, FFL's non-existent gameplay mechanics...?

[NeoGeoNinja]

 

Eh.. I think that was intentional by design. Don't forget how much crap was happening on screen in that game and the amount of slowdown it had as-is. Compromises had to be made (the RAM cart wasn't even a thing at the time of Guardian Heroes' release so using that would have been out of the question).

 

Well, I guess if horribly pixellated and blocky sprite art out of the box is 'intentional by design', I guess you'll just have to colour me as not being a fan of that approach.

 

But, you ARE right, it WILL have been a counter measure to ensure the game would still run adequately vs all that on-screen action. And fire. And explosions!

[NeoGeoNinja]

I'm of the thought that better could of been done on the Jaguar than FFL but it couldn't of been just like Battle Arena Toshinden on the Saturn. The Saturn is way more suited for 3D than the Jaguar and rivals the PSX in its ability to do so.

 

It only really rivals it when it comes to 3D fighters or contained experiences though.

 

Interestingly, it should be noted that Toshinden (as far as I'm aware?) used 3D arenas vs VF & Tekkens rotating 2D ones.

 

Also, the later released and reprogrammed Toshinden S/Remix for Saturn looked much nicer than the PS1 original.

[JagChris]

 

It only really rivals it when it comes to 3D fighters or contained experiences though.

 

 

I'm not sure about that. I don't know if WipeOut constitures a contained experience or the DarkLight Conflict but either one of those versions(PSX/Saturn) are terribly similar in appearance.

[sd32]

 

 

Also, the later released and reprogrammed Toshinden S/Remix for Saturn looked much nicer than the PS1 original.

 

 

You sure you arent thinking about the Saturn Toshinden URA, which came out much later, and used Saturn high rez mode?

 

Because Toshinden Remix, was very critiziced back in the day for not looking as good as the earlier PS1 version. Characters featured less polygons, and also were missing the lightning effects, which made them look more cartoonish. As usual, transpariences were gone. Also, some background effects were changed, and didnt look as impressive.

 

It was still cool to have Toshinden in the Saturn, though.

[JagChris]

 

 

You sure you arent thinking about the Saturn Toshinden URA, which came out much later, and used Saturn high rez mode?

 

Because Toshinden Remix, was very critiziced back in the day for not looking as good as the earlier PS1 version. Characters featured less polygons, and also were missing the lightning effects, which made them look more cartoonish. As usual, transpariences were gone. Also, some background effects were changed, and didnt look as impressive.

 

It was still cool to have Toshinden in the Saturn, though.

 

 

I have Toshinden Remix for Saturn. I would have to compare the the two side by side to be sure but the Saturn version is very nice and very playable.

 

As for magazines criticizing the Saturn, well the Saturn took the Jaguars place after the Jag folded out of the scene. The Saturn or anything coming out for it/on it/through it couldn't possibly be worth a damn next to Sonys PSX. No matter what it did.

[Lost Dragon]

You had a few magazines here in UK that did champion the Saturn, to be fair:

C+VG flew the flag gigh and did fair comparison reviews with Saturn versions of Alien Trilogy, SFA, Wipeout, Magic Carpet etc, pointing out that whilst there were cosmetic differences (along with changes to tracks in Saturn Wipeout, due to artists Sony owned) in most cases they were trival, Saturn usually having issues with transparecency effects etc.They also gave a fair break down on how Gremlin approached converting Loaded from PS1 to Saturn etc.

Also Maximum, although short-lived, flew the Saturn flag high and gave Saturn+3DO decent coverage along with PS1.

The Ladz Magz era of PS1 magazines though OMG...horrendous, heads buried in sand whenever Saturn had a superior version of a game (Hexen, Duke Nukem 3D, hell even had a version...Quake).

It's 1 reason i threw out (to be recycled) so many mags from that era:Gamesmaster, Ultimate Future Games, PSW, Playstation Plus etc etc.

[Lost Dragon]

Rebellion themselves admitted AVP was'nt pushing the Jaguar as far as they could:

 

JK:

'... We're only just scratching the surface of what it can do with AVP, and I'm sure we'll be looking back in a couple of years and laughing at how we're doing things here. It's been a very fast learning experience.'

[Otto1980]

Only going on what i've read over the years, but did'nt Saturn use Quads, when everyone else was doing 3 sided triangles, in terms of 3D.

 

the Saturn uses what the programmer told/programmed to use (same as the Jag)

the 3do uses this "Quad" textures as far i know

 

the advance is not the better texturequality .. its the better 3d model quality cause you got much more freedom of modelize nicer meshes

[Otto1980]

 

Not forgetting, FFL's non-existent gameplay mechanics...?

 

maybe check your FFL cartridge.. someone fooled you

 

on my FFL i can jump, kick, punch, step left/right, dodge and make specialattacs

and breakingnews.. the cpu enemy also can !!

Edited January 3, 2015 by Otto1980

[Lost Dragon]

@Otto1980:So, was there at least a degree of 'logic' in the approach Sega took to 3D compared to how PS1 (and PC?) approached it, would you say? or was it perhaps the only option they had, given how the final Saturn hardware turned out, twin chips instead of a single chip design?.

 

The technical gubbins is way over my head :-).