Mortal Kombat for Lynx...

[LordKraken]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

go tell the guys that did MK demo for the Lynx, that MK was so much easier to port than Pit Fighter

To be fair to whoever ported the games to the Lynx back in the day, it was probably a guy all alone, maybe 2. The MK demo had more people working on it and with better modern tools.

(not saying the final result is comparable, it isn't... also note that the MK demo just have a few characters and a limited set of moves - it would be a challenge to get everything with this level of quality to fit in a 512k rom.)

[Leeroy ST]

Just now, agradeneu said:

Sorry but that is wrong, even Double Dragon has Z axis movement and both the SNES and Genesis can do scaling sprites pretty easily.

 

I don't know why you are ignoring all the other features of the arcade machine has that would be hard for a console like SNES to emulate all at once. You're stripping things down and comparing Pit Fighter to Double Dragon doesn't even begin to make sense.

 

I'm sure with the right chips and some time you could probably produce a decent port on the SNES but it would be a lot of work which is my entire point. Other machines not so much.

 

3 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Sorry but that is wrong, even Double Dragon has Z axis movement and both the SNES and Genesis can do scaling sprites pretty easily.  There is nothing with Pit Fighter that challenges both hardware, BY ANY MEANS. The sole reason for Pit Fighter versions being so poor is that they were rushed ports with very low production values.

 

On the other hand, MK doing TONS of animation frames, parallax scrolling for the backgrounds and digitized sounds were really demanding. A home port of Street Figfhter 2 was thought impossible to do because of it's demands for graphics. Capcom had to produce the first 16 Mbit ROMs, doubling from the standard 4 and 8 Mbits. MK required 16 Mbit as well, wehen 8 Mbit were still more common. Later versions/sequels of those games required even 24 Mbit ROMs.

 

 

 

You do realize that the Genesis/SNES ports of MK had to make sacrifices right? You're focusing on the arcade version because mentally you still think I'm arguing Pit Fighter was the more powerful arcade machine but I never said that.

 

Size, cutting some parallax, reducing color count, cutting frames of animation, and reducing the sound (gen/SNES could not compete with arcade sound) were just some things you needed to do with a console port on GEN, SNES.

 

With a Pit Fighter port you needed to be able to have active moving audience sprites which scale with the Z-axis, and so did the sprites, with large fighting characters that also need to scale, with the ability to have interactive elements on the stage which also have to scale, with modest animation and retaining graphical detail as the game scales. That's not easy to do.

 

I mean I even gave you an example of what I am talking about using Ball Blazer which you just dismissed despite it proving my exact point of how this works. You keep approaching this discussion the wrong way believing I'm saying Pit Fighter is a more technical game if you can get rid of that mind set it'll make much more sense.

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

3 minutes ago, LordKraken said:

To be fair to whoever ported the games to the Lynx back in the day, it was probably a guy all alone, maybe 2. The MK demo had more people working on it and with better modern tools.

(not saying the final result is comparable, it isn't... also note that the MK demo just have a few characters and a limited set of moves - it would be a challenge to get everything with this level of quality to fit in a 512k rom.)

Depends on the game, some Lynx games at the time had a small group of people. But MK in the arcades also had a small group of people.

 

Funny enough seems Pit Fighter had more people involved making the game than MK (talking Arcade)

[agradeneu]

1 minute ago, Leeroy ST said:

I don't know why you are ignoring all the other features of the arcade machine has that would be hard for a console like SNES to emulate all at once. You're stripping things down and comparing Pit Fighter to Double Dragon doesn't even begin to make sense.

 

I'm sure with the right chips and some time you could probably produce a decent port on the SNES but it would be a lot of work which is my entire point. Other machines not so much.

 

You do realize that the Genesis/SNES ports of MK had to make sacrifices right? You're focusing on the arcade version because mentally you still think I'm arguing Pit Fighter was the more powerful arcade machine but I never said that.

 

Size, cutting some parallax, reducing color count, cutting frames of animation, and reducing the sound (gen/SNES could not compete with arcade sound) were just some things you needed to do with a console port on GEN, SNES.

 

With a Pit Fighter port you needed to be able to have active moving audience sprites which scale with the Z-axis, and so did the sprites, with large fighting characters that also need to scale, with the ability to have interactive elements on the stage which also have to scale, with modest animation and retaining graphical detail as the game scales. That's not easy to do.

 

I mean I even gave you an example of what I am talking about using Ball Blazer which you just dismissed despite it proving my exact point of how this works. You keep approaching this discussion the wrong way believing I'm saying Pit Fighter is a more technical game if you can get rid of that mind set it'll make much more sense.

 

 

The SNES is pretty good at scaling sprites -- Mode 7. Anyway, you are absolutey clueless on the subject.  I just leave it to that.

[agradeneu]

10 minutes ago, LordKraken said:

To be fair to whoever ported the games to the Lynx back in the day, it was probably a guy all alone, maybe 2. The MK demo had more people working on it and with better modern tools.

(not saying the final result is comparable, it isn't... also note that the MK demo just have a few characters and a limited set of moves - it would be a challenge to get everything with this level of quality to fit in a 512k rom.)

But they were full paid.  And we are  talking about porting 1992 graphics to an 1989 machine. I don't think its just the modern tools that do the "magic". The big difference is that modern tools are affordable to anyone. I agree the demo is not the full game, because, erhh.... it's a demo (?).

Edited September 23, 2020 by agradeneu

[Leeroy ST]

4 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

The SNES is pretty good at scaling sprites -- Mode 7. Anyway, you are absolutey clueless on the subject.  I just leave it to that.

So you're still ignoring the other elements (that aren't even present in most SNES mode 7 games even partially) that are on screen with the scaling. The same SNES with the slow, you know what you seem to not have any interest in console capability even though that's important for ports. I mean talk about clueless.

[phuzaxeman]

On 9/21/2020 at 2:24 PM, Leeroy ST said:

This may seem funny now but Pit Fighter was a big deal (in the US and maybe parts of Europe? Not sure about Japans popularity) back in the day it was SFII before SFII became popular and the Lynx was one of the only versions even remotely close to the arcade since most ports were garbage. 

 

Also correct me if my dates are off but MK came out in 1992 the same year Pitfighter Lynx came out so Atari likely didn't think the game was going to do very well especially since it used similar digitized sprites. 

 

Of course this would depend when they approached Atari as well. If it was after the console releases, which sold gangbusters, like late end of the year 1993 or anywhere in 1994, then that would be a completely different situation.

I disagree, Pit Fighter was never SF2 before SF2 because it never was a true 1 vs 1 like street fighter was.  Karate Champ is the true father of both Street Fighter2 and Mortal Kombat. 

 

And you said, "Atari likely didn't think the game (mortal kombat?) was going to do very well especially since it used similar digitized sprites. "  If the lynx came out with mk1, that would have been a huge hit on the lynx.  Mortal Kombat is hands down one of the greatest video games of all time regardless of anyone's opinion. There were lines at the arcade for both MK and SF2 back in the early 90s.  To have any of those games on the lynx would have been ground breaking.  

Edited September 24, 2020 by phuzaxeman

[Leeroy ST]

9 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

And you said, "Atari likely didn't think the game (mortal kombat?) was going to do very well especially since it used similar digitized sprites. "  

I also said that it depended on WHEN they approached Atari because MK arcade came out in 1992, and Pit Fighter Lynx came out in 1992 so MK wouldn't have proven itself viable yet especially for the future. So any time in 1992 or early half 1993 I can see why Atari would be skeptical, however, if they refused after that time frame than I would say that would be a bad move (unless guys in charge of Lynx were not paying attention and living under rock) as MK had already been a major title that was taking names in the arcades and hyped console ports were coming. So that would be different.

 

9 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

I disagree, Pit Fighter was never SF2 before SF2 because it never was a true 1 vs 1 like street fighter was.  Karate Champ is the true father of both Street Fighter2 and Mortal Kombat. 

Karate Champ wasn't even first and it's not about time it's about popularity, Pit Fighter (in the countries it was promoted in) was a big game, and even after SFII came out there was still some popularity in the arcades though that dwindled quickly, and MK1 sealed the deal (and MK1 outside of Japan beat SFII in a few countries itself and earning reputation as first digitized sprite game even though it wasn't just based on sheer popularity.)

 

Point was Pit Fighter had it's time, though it didn't have the staying power in peoples minds despite it's old popularity like what MK had, or Primal Rage, which became Atari games more memorable and still talked about today fighting game despite it not being "as" big as PitFighter in the arcades, but it was much bigger on consoles.

[phuzaxeman]

54 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

I also said that it depended on WHEN they approached Atari because MK arcade came out in 1992, and Pit Fighter Lynx came out in 1992 so MK wouldn't have proven itself viable yet especially for the future. So any time in 1992 or early half 1993 I can see why Atari would be skeptical, however, if they refused after that time frame than I would say that would be a bad move (unless guys in charge of Lynx were not paying attention and living under rock) as MK had already been a major title that was taking names in the arcades and hyped console ports were coming. So that would be different.

 

Karate Champ wasn't even first and it's not about time it's about popularity, Pit Fighter (in the countries it was promoted in) was a big game, and even after SFII came out there was still some popularity in the arcades though that dwindled quickly, and MK1 sealed the deal (and MK1 outside of Japan beat SFII in a few countries itself and earning reputation as first digitized sprite game even though it wasn't just based on sheer popularity.)

 

Point was Pit Fighter had it's time, though it didn't have the staying power in peoples minds despite it's old popularity like what MK had, or Primal Rage, which became Atari games more memorable and still talked about today fighting game despite it not being "as" big as PitFighter in the arcades, but it was much bigger on consoles.

I disagree.  Comparing pitfighter and sf2 isn't even comparable in terms of popularity. It's not even on the same level. To say pitfighter was sf2 before sf2 is really inacurate. The only thing they had in common was it had fighting in the game. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by phuzaxeman

[Lost Dragon]

From what Ernst says, he visited the arcades, saw Mortal Kombat and suggested to Atari it should be converted to the Lynx, in early 1992.

 

Atari closed the Lombard offices in the Summer of 1992

[LordKraken]

In the end we can all agree that if the Lynx had a MK of the quality of the demo, the story would have been different.

[Leeroy ST]

Speaking of which Atari should have put Primal Rage on the Lynx with MK1. Primal Rage was even o Gameboy and Game Gear, weird it wasn't officially put on the one handheld that may have done it justice.

[Leeroy ST]

2 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

I disagree.  Comparing pitfighter and sf2 isn't even comparable in terms of popularity. It's not even on the same level. \

Which I never said, I said that Pit Fighter was popular, and it was, and even after SFII it was also, to a lesser extend extremely. popular, with MK sealing the deal. I never said it was as popular as SFII this is something you came up with. I never made any direct comparison.

 

2 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

From what Ernst says, he visited the arcades, saw Mortal Kombat and suggested to Atari it should be converted to the Lynx, in early 1992.

 

Atari closed the Lombard offices in the Summer of 1992

Ok so this make sense then, MK hadn't proven itself yet and the arcade release wasn't even a major thing yet.

 

So see, this whole time people were looking at things from todays view instead of back then, while we don't know exactly what went down in the background you can easily see that it made some sense that Atari may have rejected the game.

 

Problem solved.

[phuzaxeman]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

Which I never said, I said that Pit Fighter was popular, and it was, and even after SFII it was also, to a lesser extend extremely. popular, with MK sealing the deal. I never said it was as popular as SFII this is something you came up with. I never made any direct comparison.

 

Ok so this make sense then, MK hadn't proven itself yet and the arcade release wasn't even a major thing yet.

 

So see, this whole time people were looking at things from todays view instead of back then, while we don't know exactly what went down in the background you can easily see that it made some sense that Atari may have rejected the game.

 

Problem solved.

You said that Pitfighter was SF2 before SF2 came out.  And that statement I completely disagree. It's not even close on both a popularity or gameplay level. 

 

"MK hadn't proven itself yet and the arcade release wasn't even a major thing yet."  Proven itself yet?  When the arcade MK1 was released, there were literally lines behind that game at the arcade.  No game did that except SF2.  There was a reason it was ported to every major console and then MK2 was released the following year plus a movie came out.  It was a huge hit as soon as it came out.  I was there at the mk1 tournament in my city.

 

Where is your source that Atari "rejected the game?" Because Atari was planning on MK2 and MK3 on the jaguar and Mk2 was originally planned for the lynx but licensing issues prevented that from happening. Basically, Atari didn't want to spend the money for the licensing. Atari has always wanted to have MK on their consoles.  But the Jaguar had to settle with Ultra Vortek, which was a ripoff of MK.

 

Read the article below about Atari's plan all along to have MK2 on the lynx.

http://www.ataritimes.com/index.php?ArticleIDX=314

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by phuzaxeman

[phuzaxeman]

6 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

 

Karate Champ wasn't even first and it's not about time it's about popularity,

Karate is the first true 1 vs 1 martial arts fighting game. 

[Leeroy ST]

1 minute ago, phuzaxeman said:

You said that Pitfighter was SF2 before SF2 came out.  And that statement I completely disagree.

 

Actual quote was

 

Quote

This may seem funny now but Pit Fighter was a big deal (in the US and maybe parts of Europe? Not sure about Japans popularity) back in the day it was SFII before SFII became popular and the Lynx was one of the only versions even remotely close to the arcade since most ports were garbage. 

I was talking about popularity in general and how it was a big deal when it came out. 

 

3 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

"MK hadn't proven itself yet and the arcade release wasn't even a major thing yet."  Proven itself yet? 

 

Did you read the quote that I quoted? He said they approached them in EARLY 1992. Mortal Kombat came out after that.

[phuzaxeman]

37 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Actual quote was

 

I was talking about popularity in general and how it was a big deal when it came out. 

 

Did you read the quote that I quoted? He said they approached them in EARLY 1992. Mortal Kombat came out after that.

You actual quote was "Pit Fighter was a big deal (in the US and maybe parts of Europe? Not sure about Japans popularity) back in the day it was SFII before SFII became popular..."

 

I still completely disagree with your quote.    

[Leeroy ST]

1 minute ago, phuzaxeman said:

You actual quote was "Pit Fighter was a big deal (in the US and maybe parts of Europe? Not sure about Japans popularity) back in the day it was SFII before SFII became popular..."

 

Yeah, that is the quote I just posted before?

[JagChris]

On 9/24/2020 at 1:46 PM, phuzaxeman said:

You said that Pitfighter was SF2 before SF2 came out.  And that statement I completely disagree. It's not even close on both a popularity or gameplay level. 

 

"MK hadn't proven itself yet and the arcade release wasn't even a major thing yet."  Proven itself yet?  When the arcade MK1 was released, there were literally lines behind that game at the arcade.  No game did that except SF2.  There was a reason it was ported to every major console and then MK2 was released the following year plus a movie came out.  It was a huge hit as soon as it came out.  I was there at the mk1 tournament in my city.

 

Where is your source that Atari "rejected the game?" Because Atari was planning on MK2 and MK3 on the jaguar and Mk2 was originally planned for the lynx but licensing issues prevented that from happening. Basically, Atari didn't want to spend the money for the licensing. Atari has always wanted to have MK on their consoles.  But the Jaguar had to settle with Ultra Vortek, which was a ripoff of MK.

 

Read the article below about Atari's plan all along to have MK2 on the lynx.

http://www.ataritimes.com/index.php?ArticleIDX=314

 

That guy has had the source code for 17 years! 

 

Did they use this for the current demo?

[JagChris]

Will the Lynx game drive allow for larger Rom size?

[JagChris]

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

That guy has had the source code for 17 years! 

 

Did they use this for the current demo?

Oh it's an Apri! Fools joke. Jesus

[agradeneu]

On 9/23/2020 at 7:42 PM, Leeroy ST said:

So you're still ignoring the other elements (that aren't even present in most SNES mode 7 games even partially) that are on screen with the scaling. The same SNES with the slow, you know what you seem to not have any interest in console capability even though that's important for ports. I mean talk about clueless.

 

The SNES can scale backgrounds with Mode7, the sprites scalings are predrawn sprites. So I admit, the hardware scaling of the Arcade game is not so easy to match.

Otherwise the Lynx has it, but the collision detection, sprite animations, colors are absolute poop, by any video game standards.  The Lynx can do a lot better but the artist was on vacation probably. So yeah, it's nicknamed "Shit Fighter" for a reason, it has that impressive scaling efffects, but there is not a good game to support that one trick eye candy.

As a fighting game, Pit Fighter is a prentious turd.

 

Regarding the capablities of the SNES, there are a lot of examples how to use it properly, if coders and artist were competent (opposed to SNES PF):

 

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

On 9/24/2020 at 5:28 PM, Lost Dragon said:

From what Ernst says, he visited the arcades, saw Mortal Kombat and suggested to Atari it should be converted to the Lynx, in early 1992.

 

Atari closed the Lombard offices in the Summer of 1992

It had a huge marketing hype as the "Street Fighter 2 killer", and SF2 was the record breaking arcade game of the time! 

The reasons Atari dismissed it probably were: 1. high license and development costs  2. Atari already allocating money to the Jaguar hw development and generally being short of money.

[Leeroy ST]

7 hours ago, agradeneu said:

he SNES can scale backgrounds with Mode7, the sprites scalings are predrawn sprites. So I admit, the hardware scaling of the Arcade game is not so easy to match.

Otherwise the Lynx has it, but the collision detection, sprite animations, colors are absolute poop, by any video game standards.  The Lynx can do a lot better but the artist was on vacation probably. So yeah, it's nicknamed "Shit Fighter" for a reason, it has that impressive scaling efffects, but there is not a good game to support that one trick eye candy.

As a fighting game,

 

 

 

SNES capabilities aren't really relevant since we are specifically talking about the Arcade version of Pit Fighter and "porting" it to home and the SNES would have trouble with some of the elements of the arcade version which the Lynx in some cases would have an easier time with (note I am not saying the LYNX is stronger than the SNES overall it just has some nice tricks)

 

I never even said I liked Pit Fighter either, I'm just pointing out it was popular and was well reviewed back when it was relevant until SFII, and later MK basically brushed it of the seen. I'm not defending the quality of the game.

[Leeroy ST]

7 hours ago, agradeneu said:

It had a huge marketing hype as the "Street Fighter 2 killer", and SF2 was the record breaking arcade game of the time! 

The reasons Atari dismissed it probably were: 1. high license and development costs  2. Atari already allocating money to the Jaguar hw development and generally being short of money.

Or that MK hadn't proven itself yet because early 1992 was before the arcade machine released and Pit Fighter was still moderately popular?