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List of CGE Homebrews in RETRO (magazine)

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As for RevEng comments. Speaking for myself, I could never possibly be able to live my life with such high standards such as yourself. Alas, I am a rake and an unforgivable one at that ;) May William Shakespeare shoot me in the heart with a silver arrow so that I may find peace in death and forgiveness with god. Only Superman(if he were real), Mother Theresa, and Jesus Christ could possibly live up to your standards ;) . Now seriously, way to jump on the bandwagon. You'd make a good Fire and Brimestone Preacher from the 1800's.

I don't think my standards are as unobtainable as you make out. It's not that tough to avoid being a plagiarist, and if it comes to light that I've been a less than perfect human being I don't try to shame someone else in a pathetic cover up. Most people manage to do the same, not just your holy trio.

 

Your "bandwagon" is a bit small. Spiceware posted relevant new info, and I was the next person to comment on it.

 

You might want to lay off these deflection tactics, like calling into question SpiceWare's motivation, and simply check the truth of the matter out for yourself. Do a google search on "binary diff tool" and pick one for your OS. Comparing the The Shaman and Assault shows only 461 unique bytes.

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Comparing the The Shaman and Assault shows only 461 unique bytes.

Just to visualize what said by RevEng, here are some screenshots of dhex (an hex editor which include a diff mode) showing the entire binary of "the shaman" (on top half of the image) compared to "Assault" (on the bottom). Bytes in yellow are those that differs. It clearly shows how little was changed (and if you look at Spiceware's post, you can see in detail that those bytes are just the graphics tables).

post-10599-0-75130000-1472041139_thumb.pngpost-10599-0-23972900-1472041138_thumb.pngpost-10599-0-69198600-1472041136_thumb.pngpost-10599-0-08332700-1472041135_thumb.png

A simple binary comparison like this it's enough to determine the true origin of this game because it's a very quick & dirty hackjob.

In other cases, like functional hacks (e.g. bugfixes, or new features like support for different controllers, and in any case of extensive changes not limited to just gfx tables), or when only some portions of code from existing games has been reused in a new project, a binary comparison is not adequate to spot the similarities. You need a more specific tool, like TJ's CloneSpy which finds repeated code even if it has been relocated.

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Man, if I resurrected a post from that far back, I would have been crucified, flame broiled, or outright banned.

Really? I see necrobumps all the time - here's one from last month that resurrected a 15 year old topic, to which the response was "A 15-year necrobump! Almost to the day, even. I love it! :-D". Mister-VCS last logged in on Monday so he was neither crucified, flame broiled or outright banned for it.

 

 

So, I am wondering what your motivation is to research and compare roms and resurrect a post in such a way out of the blue?

I asked Greg about this, and here is his reply: "It is homebrew...

Dude, you were lied to. You'd really rather not know?

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Really? I see necrobumps all the time - here's one from last month that resurrected a 15 year old topic, to which the response was "A 15-year necrobump! Almost to the day, even. I love it! :-D". Mister-VCS last logged in on Monday so he was neither crucified, flame broiled or outright banned for it.

 

One day I was bored at work and I went to the very distant past of the Atari 2600 forum and started responding to old threads and yes I was crucified for it. I even got a warning from Albert.

 

The way I look at it, if a 15 year old thread isn't locked it's fair game to be responded to. But who am I

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Looks like this post was resurrected from the dead, from Feb. 3rd, 2015 all the way to August 23rd, 2016. Man, if I resurrected a post from that far back, I would have been crucified, flame broiled, or outright banned. So, I am wondering what your motivation is to research and compare roms and resurrect a post in such a way out of the blue?

 

So let's first get this out of the way. The code as Greg mentioned "...it is based on existing code and games with my own contributions. As you know, it was an attempt to recreate, NOT to come up with something new.

So... As I said, it is not original at all in concept..."

 

Nowhere on the Good Deal Game site nor at shows is this release being touted as a homebrew or a hack. It is sold with a small manual, so if someone wants to buy the cart then they can buy the cart. If they don't then they don't. I highly doubt an obscure thread would have been seen by anyone before they bought the game, and even if it was, well I doubt the homebrew vs. hack argument would truly matter.

 

As for the similarities, Greg will have to comment on that and the methodology you used to compare both roms. I'll let him know. I assumed it was pretty much a homebrew based on his email to me. But if indeed, it is a hack, then I apologize.

 

As for RevEng comments. Speaking for myself, I could never possibly be able to live my life with such high standards such as yourself. Alas, I am a rake and an unforgivable one at that ;) May William Shakespeare shoot me in the heart with a silver arrow so that I may find peace in death and forgiveness with god. Only Superman(if he were real), Mother Theresa, and Jesus Christ could possibly live up to your standards ;) . Now seriously, way to jump on the bandwagon. You'd make a good Fire and Brimestone Preacher from the 1800's.

 

 

AtariCharles,

your comments are right on; the same thing occured on another thread after I wrote STARBLITZ with the same programmers posting demo's and examples of my code and then starting a flame thread to post a scathing review of the game.

 

The starblitz demo's they posted actually had none of my code but were supposed to show what my game would look like at 60 HZ vs 30 HZ; I released a version of the game that could really toggle between 30 and 60 HZ but they could only respond with potty talk.

 

These guys are obviously big fans and want to be like 80's programmers, but the thing is back in the 80's fans asked for our autograph on our games and books, nobody was posting fake comparison tests and fake demo's, and still at it again years later after being disproven - shameless.

 

The claims have alot of irony because the same programmers are all down for OPP - the way modern programmers code is all about looking at other programmers games in order to write a game like that; my code is 100% original, to do unqiue things with the TIA I just looked at the specs and a few generic examples like Dan Oliver - same deal with Greg Zumwalt, we don't even need the debugger we've been doing this so long :)

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So without quoting, I will attempt to respond.

 

The Shaman was never sold as a homebrew or a hack, but as a game with a cool label(with a long story behind it) and a storyline. So if someone wanted to buy it online or at a show, then they could do so.

 

Greg's email to me was missing text, so here is the quote from what I have in my email. "It is [missing text] homebrew, but it is based on existing code and games with my own contributions. As you know, it was an attempt to recreate, NOT to come up with something new.
So... As I said, it is not original at all in concept.
I just ran a comparison between the two roms and they have a total of 3 lines of code the same."

I took this to mean that it was a homebrew when I posted way back a year and a half ago, but reading the text again, some words didn't make it into the email(I have done the same thing while typing). So is the missing text [a] or [not a]? And if you look in the body of the email, the paragraph reads that the game is based on existing code and games with his own contributions and so on and so on. So it is my mistake that I said it was a homebrew based on an incomplete email and quickly reading and posting. But as I said, the game was never sold as a hack or a homebrew, but as a game.

The idea that anyone can do a graphical hack that is enjoyable, well that is an assumption. That is like saying anyone can paint a picture on canvas that is enjoyble to the viewers. Back when I was in university, there have been discussions on published poetry that some students would say, well that is simple, anyone can write that. My prof at the time would respond, "Well then, why didn't you?" So anyone can be a critic and like the old saying that opinions are like a##sholes and that everyone has one, rings very true. If you dislike the game, well then don't play it on emulation and don't buy it.

The Red Wheelbarrow
so much dependsupona red wheelbarrowglazed with rainwaterbeside the whitechickens.

Oh but of course, anyone can write that. Right? Just like anyone can do a hack, get it published and mentioned in a video game magazine(s). But anyone can do that, right? And if you could have made The Shaman, well then why didn't you?

For Mr SQL: As for your comments, thanks. Not surprising the same posters being involved, RevEng(Reverend English) and others. Some of the Reverend's posts seem fanatical in the link you provided. Yes, back in the 80's would have been way different. There is always a lot of hatred for anything not published by Atari Age, especially if Hozer manufactures the carts. It is nothing new, sadly. I don't blame Atari Age at all for this behaviour, but the haters and the fanatics.

 

-endline

And people wonder why I rarely post anything here anymore. Either it is ignored(as it is not an Atari Age release) such as the 1MB Board that does work! or torn apart(anything to do with Hozer).

 

And like I have said and have been saying, if you like the game buy it. If you hate the game, don't buy it.

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I took this to mean that it was a homebrew when I posted way back a year and a half ago, but reading the text again, some words didn't make it into the email(I have done the same thing while typing). So is the missing text [a] or [not a]? And if you look in the body of the email, the paragraph reads that the game is based on existing code and games with his own contributions and so on and so on. So it is my mistake that I said it was a homebrew based on an incomplete email and quickly reading and posting.

Except that Greg himself vehemently argued his game wasn't a hack in this very thread, using comparison between it and Demon Attack as proof. Chuck, that isn't logically consistent with your supposition. A rational person would say "yes, it's a hack. Wrong game." Instead he claimed it was his game.

 

The spinning, stawman, and ad hominem arguments aren't fooling anybody. We can all read.

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Missing text? That's possible. When considering this bit from reply 19:

the game was intentionally made to resemble others but is my work

it seems probable that any potentially missing text would be [a].

 

Hacks are fine, many of them are works of art.

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The Shaman was never sold as a homebrew or a hack, but as a game with a cool label(with a long story behind it) and a storyline.

That's the first problem. Since it's an hack of an existing game programmed by someone else, you should mention it. Not doing it denotes lack of respect for the original author's work.

 

The other, bigger, problem is that when asked about it, the guy openly denied it was an hack, claiming that "the game was intentionally made to resemble others but is his own work", which has been demonstrated to be a lie. ALL the game code is from a commercial game with only the graphics of the sprites modified.

 

 

The idea that anyone can do a graphical hack that is enjoyable, well that is an assumption.

[...]

And like I have said and have been saying, if you like the game buy it. If you hate the game, don't buy it.

The problem is not if the game is enjoyable or not, nor the amount of skills required to make it, nor if it's a hack or an homebrew. Hacks are fine. Homebrews are fine. Taking credit for other's work is not. Edited by alex_79
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Again, when The Shaman is sold online and in person(at shows, etc.) is is not sold as a homebrew or a hack, but as a video game cart for the Atari 2600.

 

Yes, if it is a hack, then yes I agree that the original game should be mentioned or the author(as I do for any Gray Games videogames that are based on other peoples work and releases). Greg's text up above was incomplete and I would say the missing text would be [is not] and based on the rest of the paragraph he wrote, he is clearly saying it is not an original piece of work. "It is [missing text] homebrew, but it is based on existing code and games with my own contributions. As you know, it was an attempt to recreate, NOT to come up with something new.
So... As I said, it is not original at all in concept.
I just ran a comparison between the two roms and they have a total of 3 lines of code the same."


From an old email Greg emailed me in 2014 that I searched out:

Greg 2014: ...This is my HB version, but it is far from original. Here it is again. Keep in mind, it's still Balthazar, coded from B5, code borrowed from Fire Birds based upon code from Cosmic / Free Fire / Invasion der UFO'S / Monster aus dem All / Orbit-Base / Scorpion, which all borrowed code from Demon Attack which borrowed code from Phoenix...

I emailed Greg the link to this thread and this is what he had to say:

Greg Aug 2015:

I had not even heard of the Assault variant, but when I researched it, as the trolls should have, they would know:
"Assault is a Bomb title, a clone, indicative of the lack of talent, passion and imagination that Bomb possessed. As if we weren't tired of Galaxian knock-offs by 1984 already, Bomb served us a clone with worse graphics and gameplay than the game it obviously ripped off. A mother ship flies across the screen. pumping out three alien ships that you must destroy. The object is to shoot and destroy them while dodging the enemy fire. That's it! With drab visuals, repetitive and boring gameplay, and not a hint of originality whatsoever, Assault is a game best left for collectors to seek out.
In addition, in 1985 Centuri sued Bomb for Copyright violation as its code is taken from Phoenix. They lost the case however because the game's developer is unknown, according to Centuri's Joel Hochberg, the game was licensed from "a smaller Japanese developer." The code for Phoenix it turned out was itself taken from the Taito version of Space Invaders, released in 1980."
This is another reason I don't like the code to these games being given away. It is just what the trolls feed on.
So what game or who gets included in the rom name? You see this is very convoluted and would a very long Rom name. If atari2600homebrews.com wants add credits for the game in the rom name and move The Shaman to the hacks section of the site, then feel free to. But be prepared for a very long rom name: The_Shaman_qtm_2014_(Greg Zumwalt)(hack of ____ a hack of ____ a hack of _____ a hack of_____ which is originally Space Invaders by Taito plus a bunch of other stuff like Baltazart's, coded from B5, code borrowed from Fire Birds based upon code from Cosmic / Free Fire / Invasion der UFO'S / Monster aus dem All / Orbit-Base / Scorpion, which all borrowed code from Demon Attack which borrowed code from Phoenix. Inspired by yadadadadadadadadada and so on).bin
So is a game that uses a bunch of other games code and uses games that are hacks of hack of hacks of hacks(if that is the case) still a hack or a homebrew?
So this really is all I have to say in the matter.

Buy the game, don't buy the game, download the rom, don't download the rom, etc.



Edited by Atari Charles

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The other, bigger, problem is that when asked about it, the guy openly denied it was an hack, claiming that "the game was intentionally made to resemble others but is his own work", which has been demonstrated to be a lie. ALL the game code is from a commercial game with only the graphics of the sprites modified.

 

 

Please read the rest of the thread Alex, Greg followed up by illustrating the accusations were false using the same tool - he's a more advanced programmer so he actually taught the other programmer how to operate it. Why does he have to do the same thing again? I'd like to see a better explanation of the "proof it was DA", since the same proof seems to be getting posted again only Greg's not interested in debunking it again.

 

For that matter I'd like to see those silly StarBlitz demo's put through that difference compare utility - that's not my code baby ;)

post-30777-0-56109200-1472063861.gif

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This is ridiculous. The game code in both The Shaman and Assault are 100% identical, with the only changes being the graphic data. Spiceware demonstrated this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

No silly story about game lineage and shared code will change that. The proof is right there in the bytes.

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Atari Charles, valiant defender of a proven plagiarist.

 

Ah well, another person to add to the ignore list.

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@RevEng @SpiceWare

 

Please read the rest of the thread Alex, Greg followed up by illustrating the accusations were false using the same tool - he's a more advanced programmer so he actually taught the other programmer how to operate it. Why does he have to do the same thing again? I'd like to see a better explanation of the "proof it was DA", since the same proof seems to be getting posted again only Greg's not interested in debunking it again.

 

For that matter I'd like to see those silly StarBlitz demo's put through that difference compare utility - that's not my code baby ;)

attachicon.gif102-Austin-Powers-quotes.gif


@SpiceWare: All who have done a hack of a game are plagiarists...but woe is me. My heart is broken. Alas, what shall I do with you ignoring me. The sun has set eternally in my life and now I live in the shadow as Nosferatu. The sun shall never rise again and I am doomed to the eternal shadow as undeath as my only companion.

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What is Greg and Atari Charles' relationship with Good Deal Games? (I'm trying to figure out how far up this mess goes, and who to avoid buying from in the future)

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What is Greg and Atari Charles' relationship with Good Deal Games? (I'm trying to figure out how far up this mess goes, and who to avoid buying from in the future)

Well, you should never buy any of Gray Games releases where ever they are found. And to be safe, only buy video games with SpiceWare's stamp of approval and that he has personally tested the code using faulty techniques and software to make sure that it is not a hack of any game out there real or imagined.

 

And to see how absolutely horrible Gray Games releases are, please watch the following video:

 

 

So again, please don't buy any of our games.

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@SpiceWare: All who have done a hack of a game are plagiarists...

Wrong. Its not plagarism if you cite sources, like most ROM hackers do. Plagarism is when you pass off someone else's work as your own, like Greg did.

 

Sadly grade school children have been taught this difference since the 70s, and probably earlier. Yet somehow it still escaped those involved in this fiasco.

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Wrong. Its not plagarism if you cite sources, like most ROM hackers do. Plagarism is when you pass off someone else's work as your own, like Greg did.

 

Sadly grade school children have been taught this difference since the 70s, and probably earlier. Yet somehow it still escaped those involved in this fiasco.

So he's making up definitions of words now? How pathetic.

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So he's making up definitions of words now? How pathetic.

Pathetic is you resurrecting a thread long dead to throw mud to show what a hero you are. I would not be surprised if you slam other guys in your real life social circles to look like the hero to the various damsels in distress you try to save. I don;t know you, but really by your posts you seem the type. I hope I am wrong.

 

Pathetic is not reading all the the posts in this thread and not reading the threads mentioned. Also you did not research the game that your are comparing The Shaman to.

 

Pathetic is not messaging me first so that I could look into this, but instead to create a post in a rude way to slam Greg and the game. Like I wrote in a previous post, if the game is indeed a hack, then I have no problem adding the game's name to the bin file name. Dude, you could have easily pmed me and let me know.

 

And like I said, the game is simply sold as a game and not as a hack or homebrew.

 

So enlighten me, why would you spend all your time on downloading The Shaman and comparing files? Don't you have any games you are working on?

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Wrong. Its not plagarism if you cite sources, like most ROM hackers do. Plagarism is when you pass off someone else's work as your own, like Greg did.

 

Sadly grade school children have been taught this difference since the 70s, and probably earlier. Yet somehow it still escaped those involved in this fiasco.

Like I wrote previously, I have no issue adding the original game title in the rom name if it is indeed a hack of another game.

 

This thread has turned into a flamewar, which is really not the point of these forums.

 

This thread should be locked as it has gone to #hit.

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From an old email Greg emailed me in 2014 that I searched out:

Greg 2014: ...This is my HB version, but it is far from original. Here it is again. Keep in mind, it's still Balthazar, coded from B5, code borrowed from Fire Birds based upon code from Cosmic / Free Fire / Invasion der UFO'S / Monster aus dem All / Orbit-Base / Scorpion, which all borrowed code from Demon Attack which borrowed code from Phoenix...

I emailed Greg the link to this thread and this is what he had to say:

Greg Aug 2015:

I had not even heard of the Assault variant, but when I researched it, as the trolls should have, they would know:
"Assault is a Bomb title, a clone, indicative of the lack of talent, passion and imagination that Bomb possessed. As if we weren't tired of Galaxian knock-offs by 1984 already, Bomb served us a clone with worse graphics and gameplay than the game it obviously ripped off. A mother ship flies across the screen. pumping out three alien ships that you must destroy. The object is to shoot and destroy them while dodging the enemy fire. That's it! With drab visuals, repetitive and boring gameplay, and not a hint of originality whatsoever, Assault is a game best left for collectors to seek out.
In addition, in 1985 Centuri sued Bomb for Copyright violation as its code is taken from Phoenix. They lost the case however because the game's developer is unknown, according to Centuri's Joel Hochberg, the game was licensed from "a smaller Japanese developer." The code for Phoenix it turned out was itself taken from the Taito version of Space Invaders, released in 1980."
[Looks like a whole lot of plagiarism going on all the way down to poor old Space Invaders]
This is another reason I don't like the code to these games being given away. It is just what the trolls feed on.
So what game or who gets included in the rom name? You see this is very convoluted and would a very long Rom name. If atari2600homebrews.com wants add credits for the game in the rom name and move The Shaman to the hacks section of the site, then feel free to. But be prepared for a very long rom name: The_Shaman_qtm_2014_(Greg Zumwalt)(hack of ____ a hack of ____ a hack of _____ a hack of_____ which is originally Space Invaders by Taito plus a bunch of other stuff like Baltazart's, coded from B5, code borrowed from Fire Birds based upon code from Cosmic / Free Fire / Invasion der UFO'S / Monster aus dem All / Orbit-Base / Scorpion, which all borrowed code from Demon Attack which borrowed code from Phoenix. Inspired by yadadadadadadadadada and so on).bin
So is a game that uses a bunch of other games code and uses games that are hacks of hack of hacks of hacks(if that is the case) still a hack or a homebrew?

Buy the game, don't buy the game, download the rom, don't download the rom, etc.

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Like I wrote previously, I have no issue adding the original game title in the rom name if it is indeed a hack of another game.

Bully for you. Greg should have done that instead of passing off someone else's work, and throwing a hissy fit when Thomas called him on it.

 

 

This thread has turned into a flamewar, which is really not the point of these forums.

This thread should be locked as it has gone to #hit.

It's actually still a pretty mild thread. People are just holding you to what the facts are, like what "plagarism" is, and what percentage of game code is common between The Shaman and Assault. (100%, for those at home keeping score)

 

I completely understand why you might prefer it to be locked, though.

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Thanks for checking again. I wonder why Demon Attack from CCE is not related to the other versions. There seems to be a bug hiding in my old code. Can you post the clones.txt file? That should help fixing it.

 

Anyway, judging from your screen shot you are right and I stand corrected: The Shaman is not a hack of Demon Attack.

 

Sorry, that my wrong assumption made you upset.

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