JohnnyBlaze Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) I had an idea cross my head that Albert should definitely try and implement. Since quite a few people have Harmony carts and with Harmony Encore, it's future proofed for homebrew roms, why not have a part of the AtariAge store where you can buy roms of homebrew games and be able to download them to play on Harmony and Harmony Encore? It would help homebrewers distribute their game more widely and at a lower cost since they don't have to worry about finding donor carts, buying new boards, EEPROMS, etc. Also, it would help get people who couldn't burn their games onto a cart because of cost or lack of knowledge still be able to make a profit. They could set their own prices, say $5-10 a game. They could even dictate how many downloads are available and once they are done, the link could expire. You can also do IP address tracking just in case someone leaks it and you could figure out easier who dumped it. There's so much homebrew for Atari and for Colecovision and they have their respective carts. It'd would be a cool idea and expand the homebrew community now that they'd have better distribution where they'd seemingly have more control. So, how about it? I'd love to see a discussion on this topic. Edited January 4, 2015 by JohnnyBlaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Unless ROM's are serialized, this would never work. All you need is 5 people buying the game and 1 of the 5 leaks it online. Who did it? Even if they are serialized, all you need is one guy getting his hands on multiple ROM's and figure out how to either create random serials or remove it all together. Just my $0.02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Actually, I do intend to explore digital downloads. There are many people who own a Harmony Cart (or other means of playing games, either on real hardware or through emulation) that would like to support the homebrew community, but don't want to pay $20-$30 for a cartridge they'll never use. While it would be possible to serialize the ROMs (this would require a BIOS update for the Harmony, and we have discussed it), I doubt we'd go that route. You can't stop piracy, and most homebrew binaries are available anyway, right here on AtariAge. I'll be updating the store soon with entirely new software, and once I do that, it'll be easier to support digital downloads. ..Al 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Iacovelli Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 cpuwiz is correct, it won't work,its like those who get cracks for programs for those who don't want to renew licence. besides people are posting rom of games already for free. as al just posted, digital d/ls can be done I don't know how you can charge fr it though. unless you d/l the rom with no instructions and charge for the digital version of the instructions on places like lulu or magcloud. just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 As I mentioned before, the digital downloads would be for people who want to support the homebrew community but don't want to buy a cartridge. There's no need to pirate most 2600 homebrew games because you can already find the binaries directly on AtariAge. I've been asked many times if digital copies of games are available for purchase. ..Al 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 [can-o-worms]Are you seriously not interested in stopping people like RC dipping into the "profit" of homebrew authors?[/can-o-worms] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Iacovelli Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 you know I support homebrew games especially Atari. in fact with me out of job now I'm going to go back to programing homebrews for 2600 and I'm planning to do games on the 7800 and jaguar thanks to thier basic compliers. Also thats the one reason why I started doing the Harmony games HSC to support the homebrew market of 2600. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyBlaze Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) I understand your points. Even if the binaries are available for free on the boards, I'd still like to throw a few bucks their way and support them. Yes, they can be pirated even with a serial and I mentioned that. But, I see this as more of a community willing to help each other out and support each other's projects. There are still some games that I want the actual cart as well because they look amazing. Edited January 4, 2015 by JohnnyBlaze 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I understand your points. Even if the binaries are available for free on the boards, I'd still like to throw a few bucks their way and support them. Yes, they can be pirated even with a serial and I mentioned that. But, I see this as more of a community willing to help each other out and support each other's projects. There are still some games that I want the actual cart as well because they look amazing. Even if the digital download contribution does not work out for you, you can always contribute by subscribing. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 As I mentioned before, the digital downloads would be for people who want to support the homebrew community but don't want to buy a cartridge. There's no need to pirate most 2600 homebrew games because you can already find the binaries directly on AtariAge. I've been asked many times if digital copies of games are available for purchase. ..Al Yeah for whatever the reason (good regardless) Atari homebrew is nearly all freely available, Intellivision mostly available, and Colecovision partly available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I think digital distro is a good idea but IMO I wouldn't pay more than $5 for the ROM. Video game collectors love to hold something tangible in their hands and inserting the cartridge is more nostalgic than loading an EMU or placing ROM on the SD card. I can and do use my Harmony to check out WIP homebrews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Iacovelli Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I think 5.00 is too high for a rom and instructions may something around 2.00 to 3.00 will be good, and maybe include note saying if you enjoy playing this then purchase the cart and help support the homebrew community and maybe coupon code to purchase the cart version with a discount based on the cost of the rom and instructions (ie laerman 88 rom and instructions for purchase is 2.00 the discount would be 2.00 off the cart price) I use my haromny for mostly homebrews as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 $5 has been the usual royalty price since I started selling my carts back in 2000. After inflation and with very different exchange rates, that's much less in Euro now. So why would that be too high now? This amount is not meant to compensate the author's work (else you would rather be paying $100 or more), but to show your respect and encourage him to continue his work. For the $5 you could probably also get a (watermarked) PDF of the manual. And a store discount when you decide to buy the cart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 [can-o-worms]Are you seriously not interested in stopping people like RC dipping into the "profit" of homebrew authors?[/can-o-worms]IMO the main problem is not RC but the selfish people buying from him. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I think 5.00 is too high for a rom and instructions may something around 2.00 to 3.00 will be good, and maybe include note saying if you enjoy playing this then purchase the cart and help support the homebrew community and maybe coupon code to purchase the cart version with a discount based on the cost of the rom and instructions (ie laerman 88 rom and instructions for purchase is 2.00 the discount would be 2.00 off the cart price) I use my haromny for mostly homebrews as well. I can tell you right now that it would be a minimum of $5, and perhaps more. Go look at current prices for digital video game downloads, movies and music. Very often they are only minimally discounted. Heck, PS4 and Xbox One games cost the exact same price whether you buy them in physical form or as a digital version, and the digital version gives you fewer "rights" than the physical copies in most of these cases due to DRM. Only music is generally sold DRM-free, and I can often buy the physical CD for less what iTunes charges. Now, I certainly don't expect people to pay $25 for the ROM image of a homebrew game when the cart is priced at $25. But $2 - $3? That's not a fair price at all. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 AFAIK Harmony has hurt cart sales much more than I had expected, so offering a ROM sales channel to (partially) compensate for the loss seems like a good idea. Else more and more homebrewers may eventually stop releasing their ROMs for free. Development would always have to happen in closed circles then. And if that doesn't help, people may look for DRM. That's not a way I would l like this community to go. BTW: Nobody stops Harmony users from sending money for a certain ROM to Al. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iesposta Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Carl Mueller, Jr. sells his games as ROMs! The Intellivision masterpieces DK Arcade and D2K sell for $10 ON SALE! The ROMs are $20 not on sale, and only a few have Intellivision cartridges that play ROMs, so most sales are for emulator use and for the future two flash carts. (As far as I know there is no place to download those ROMs for free.) They are encoded with and show the buyer's name which adds prestige and discourages sharing. "Shameware." You share it and it will be known whose ROM it was, and that person will not be sold future works in ROM format. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Iacovelli Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I don't do much on digital downloads mostly magazines like retro and such. I figure the cost would be based on the size of the rom and number of pages in the instructions (sites like magcloud price print .20 cents per page) prob the best way to price it is about 10 peercent of the cart plus cost of the instructions prob like 2.00 or 3.00 (digital versions of mags usually range around 2.00 to 5.00, depending on number of pages( the e-book version of the vgs programs I do on magcloud are based on the cost I would pay to have staples do normal print in greyscale) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I don't do much on digital downloads mostly magazines like retro and such. I figure the cost would be based on the size of the rom and number of pages in the instructions (sites like magcloud price print .20 cents per page) prob the best way to price it is about 10 peercent of the cart plus cost of the instructions prob like 2.00 or 3.00 (digital versions of mags usually range around 2.00 to 5.00, depending on number of pages( the e-book version of the vgs programs I do on magcloud are based on the cost I would pay to have staples do normal print in greyscale) I still don't understand why you feel the ROM price should only be 10% of the cart cost. You really think that's fair? I certainly don't, so it's unlikely you will be buying any digital 2600 homebrew downloads. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Iacovelli Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I still don't understand why you feel the ROM price should only be 10% of the cart cost. You really think that's fair? I certainly don't, so it's unlikely you will be buying any digital 2600 homebrew downloads. ..Al 10 percent of cart plus cost of instructions ie a cart is 30.00 which would be 3.00 + price of instructions based on price per page on print ( ie an 8 page 8.5 by 11 print book on magcloud would be 1.6 or 2.00 if add a markup of.40 cents) which would equal 4.60 with out markup or 5.00 with markup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+evg2000 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hey Al, I think it's great that you might sell ROMS. If you decide to sell ROMS, sell them for what you think makes sense. Some people will buy them some people won't . I will continue to buy carts for ones that I'm really interested in, and possibly buys ROMS for ones that I have some interest in though not enough to buy a cart. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC-42 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I tend to agree with Al on this. As iesposta mentioned above, I bought D2K for $10 and don't regret it a bit. Worth every penny. I'd do it again with a smile on my face and a song in my heart. As much as I would like to, I don't buy 2600 games, either older or modern, because I simply don't have the space for them. (I buy 7800 games because the library is much smaller and more manageable.) I have a number of ROMs of newer, completed 2600 games that I have never paid for, either because they came with my Harmony cart or because the folks who made them offered the ROM images freely on AtariAge. I'm mindful of the fact that they put a lot into these games--all the more so now that I've started monkeying around on the 7800 with a game of sorts of my own!--and that I'm benefitting from their generosity in the process. I'd love to see a way to make sure that people get something for their efforts, and I'm not at all against splashing out $5 or even $10 for the effort put into high-quality, entertaining and original games that I can then just slap onto my Harmony cart. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I always felt that the bulk of the funds go towards making the cart and the $5 royalty as a "tip" to the programmer. So I feel the same $5 should be charged for digital download, possibly more to cover the hosting and fees. Nintendo charges $5 a pop for NES games. Atari 2600/7800 homebrew is about the same in terms of value, I think. Also, as for adding "watermarks" to game ROMs, this could easily be erased or deleted with a hex editor. Worse, if the ROMs are serialized, tne perpetrator could hex edit the ROM values to pass the blame onto someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I always felt that the bulk of the funds go towards making the cart and the $5 royalty as a "tip" to the programmer. So I feel the same $5 should be charged for digital download, possibly more to cover the hosting and fees. Nintendo charges $5 a pop for NES games. Atari 2600/7800 homebrew is about the same in terms of value, I think. To counter your points, Nintendo has already made many millions off their NES library--this is really just gravy to them. Plus, they are doing huge volume compared to the 2600/7800 homebrew community. Charging $5 for downloads of 2600 homebrew games doesn't cover royalties, payment processor fees or taxes on profits. To say nothing of contributing to hosting, software licenses, and various other expenses related to running AtariAge. And on top of that, the considerable amount of time I spend keeping the site online. I'm certainly not going to do it at a loss. ..Al 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Iacovelli Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 since you already have subscription programing an idea would add the rom digital d/l service to it for say about 15.00 a month which could have a subsriber d/l five roms a month. for those not a subscriber 20.00 per d/l for roms higher 8k and 15 for roms 4k to 8k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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