Finally i have the proof behind those Jaguar CD screenshots.....

[Zerosquare]

Well, it DOES have a lot of untapped potential...

As Linus Torvalds once said: "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." Edited January 29, 2015 by Zerosquare

[+CyranoJ]

As Linus Torvalds once said: "Talk is cheap. Show me the code."

 

Nah, why kill a decades worth of utter bullshit with actual facts

[sd32]

Well, it DOES have a lot of untapped potential... just not anywhere near the PS1 or Saturn. The 32X has a lot of untapped potential. Doesn't mean it can take on the Saturn. To get some idea about how games COULD have gone on the 32X, the GBA is roughly the same power (32X has more processing power with its dual SH2s, but otherwise very nearly identical in all other areas). So just look at the game they came out with on the GBA. The Jaguar is easily more powerful than the 32X or GBA, so we know that anything that came out on the GBA could have easily been done for the Jaguar as well. Think about some of the last few racers for the GBA, then look at Checker Flag or Club Drive...

 

Thats been my point all along, although i dont have Chilly Willys technical knowledge to back it up, just common sense, hehe. I dont get the whole, "we didnt see it, so the Jag cant do it", way of thinking of some of the posters here, regarding developers being able of get more out of the Jaguar after only 1.5 generations of software.

 

A perfect port of the 32X Virtua Racing Deluxe and Virtua Fighter would have kicked ass on the Jaguar...we had to settle for Fight for Life and Checkered Flag. Such a shame nothing came out of the Atari/Sega deal.

[sh3-rg]

I dont get the whole, "we didnt see it, so the Jag cant do it", way of thinking of some of the posters here, regarding developers being able of get more out of the Jaguar after only 1.5 generations of software.

There's an important misunderstanding in this regard.

 

"didn't see it therefore Jag can't do it..." - nobody says that. That's clearly dumb logic.

 

try:

 

"make Jag do it and prove your claims" - that's irrefutable.

 

Until the Jaguar is made to do anything, it's all just pointless conjecture, however well informed the orator might be. kskunk has highlighted - at length - just how what you think you know plays out in the cold hard reality of attempting to make it so.

 

Such a shame nothing came out of the Atari/Sega deal.

Oh but it did - endless opportunity for people to discuss "what might have been" instead of accepting what was :0)

[Bill Loguidice]

Well, it DOES have a lot of untapped potential... just not anywhere near the PS1 or Saturn. The 32X has a lot of untapped potential. Doesn't mean it can take on the Saturn. To get some idea about how games COULD have gone on the 32X, the GBA is roughly the same power (32X has more processing power with its dual SH2s, but otherwise very nearly identical in all other areas). So just look at the game they came out with on the GBA. The Jaguar is easily more powerful than the 32X or GBA, so we know that anything that came out on the GBA could have easily been done for the Jaguar as well. Think about some of the last few racers for the GBA, then look at Checker Flag or Club Drive...

 

You know, it's arguable whether or not the 32X has a great deal of untapped potential, at least in comparison to the Jaguar. While it has more than its fair share of half-baked games that would clearly be better with proper optimization (Doom, for one), and fewer total games than the Jaguar/Jag CD combo, it also features games like Virtua Racing Deluxe, Virtua Fighter, Star Wars Arcade, Darxide, etc., that give a good idea of the total capabilities of the platform. I think there were far fewer games that gave a sense of what the Jaguar could do, unless someone wants to argue that what we got was roughly the best that the Jaguar could offer (it may very well be, but I think with better developers we might have seen a few more stand-out titles).

 

In any case, it's interesting to note that the 32X sold more than twice as many units as the Jaguar, yet is probably considered a bigger flop. That just brings us back to the point about releasing an add-on for a sizeable user base, something Atari failed to heed with the Jaguar's CD add-on.

[+madman]

It's amazing that the Jaguar is thought to have all this untapped potential to have been the greatest gaming system ever, but a Sega Genesis game with a one-off DSP chip, Virtua Racing, beat the hell out of any Jag racing game. Maybe another 3 years of Jag development could've allowed Atari to compete with the Genesis?

[Bill Loguidice]

It's amazing that the Jaguar is thought to have all this untapped potential to have been the greatest gaming system ever, but a Sega Genesis game with a one-off DSP chip, Virtua Racing, beat the hell out of any Jag racing game. Maybe another 3 years of Jag development could've allowed Atari to compete with the Genesis?

 

Virtua Racing was brilliant on the Genesis, but to be fair, that was one pricey game when released! While I don't think there's a huge amount of untapped potential in the Jaguar, I do think it suffered from a lack of world class developers. We clearly could have seen better than what we got for the most part (with notable exceptions like Zero 5, among a few others).

[Chilly Willy]

You know, it's arguable whether or not the 32X has a great deal of untapped potential, at least in comparison to the Jaguar. While it has more than its fair share of half-baked games that would clearly be better with proper optimization (Doom, for one), and fewer total games than the Jaguar/Jag CD combo, it also features games like Virtua Racing Deluxe, Virtua Fighter, Star Wars Arcade, Darxide, etc., that give a good idea of the total capabilities of the platform.

Those games do come close to what you could do GRAPHICALLY. Not the very best, but you get a good idea of what you can do on the 32X. As far as sound goes, they didn't even scratch the surface. Same for making better use of the extra SH2. So while you can claim there's not a lot left to show for graphics, and that is arguable, nothing else was remotely pushed on the platform. My demos have done a decent job of showing closer to what the audio could do, as well as a little of what another sh2 allows; interrupt processed DMA'd sample buffers, using the slave sh2 for sound processing (ogg/mp3/g722.1/xm/mod), but there's still more to be done there as well.

 

Again, look at the GBA games for a better idea of what you could have seen on the 32X if it had lasted more than six months. Launch games rarely show you what a platform is REALLY capable of, and that's ALL you got on the 32X.

 

 

I think there were far fewer games that gave a sense of what the Jaguar could do, unless someone wants to argue that what we got was roughly the best that the Jaguar could offer (it may very well be, but I think with better developers we might have seen a few more stand-out titles).

True - where the 32X got VF and VRD, the Jag got Fight for Life and Checkered Flag. Not a very good comparison that we KNOW should have been better. In that respect, the 32X got a lot more love (relatively speaking) than the Jag. Which is a shame since despite all flaws, it's a pretty awesome console.

 

 

In any case, it's interesting to note that the 32X sold more than twice as many units as the Jaguar, yet is probably considered a bigger flop. That just brings us back to the point about releasing an add-on for a sizeable user base, something Atari failed to heed with the Jaguar's CD add-on.

It's funny that the 32X was considered such a flop when it actually propped up Sega's profits for the quarters it was sold. There's been a lot of financial records for the periods covering the MD through the DC posted on boards, and had Sega not put out the 32X, it's arguable they'd have gone bankrupt trying to push out the Saturn. The 32X was not sold for a loss at the beginning, sold a metric shit-tonne of consoles that first xmas, and had several games that EVERYONE bought. So what if there were only 30-some games total for the 32X? I bought just as many 32X games as I did PS1 games within six months of purchase.

[Lost Dragon]

Keep praying it's working so far :-) (posted this elsewhere) but this has been latest from newest contact of mine:

Dear Ross,

Thank you for the questions, I will take the time to read and answer

them but I could be short of time for answering this week so I will send

my replies only on next Monday (sorry about that).

@Schmudde -Thanks for kind words, Time is the real factor here, mainly fact i'm eating into time of people with very real jobs, hence why i've 'lost' a few interviews along the way (questions sent, never heard from again) and currently have interviews sat with sources to appear at time of their choosing, lot of interviews out, yet to come back in etc, hence going after new interviews whilst waiting for older ones to be returned.

Edge have let themselves down badly over the years in terms of how they used and doctored in 1 case, screenshots, reported info etc.For all the 'Industry Bible' talk..they've sinned as much as any other.Pity, but there it is.

[Lost Dragon]

:-) I was reading through a thread on another forum yesterday, saw my interview with Richard being commented on..i had to chuckle at claims there really was'nt anything Jaguar specific regarding Tomb Raider in it and Edge were well known for making false claims (true, as i myself have been happy to showcase, Rebellion's planned Jag CD Games, reporting on a Jag CD unit 'blowing up' at an event etc etc) as Richard made clear screens were'nt from Jaguar CD version and IF Jeremy Smith had indeed been working on a Jag CD version of Tomb Raider, he'd of told Richard, who's JOB it was at the time to promote such projects, to shout it from the roof tops and all we had to go on was what Edge had printed years ago and you could'nt believe what you read in Edge, still knew nothing of Jaguar Tomb Raider...etc etc.

 

Well it was 'thanks' to Edge interviewing Core we DO know games origins-not as some claimed years ago, on Jag CD, but started a year prior to BC Racers on MCD being finished.

[Lost Dragon]

We also know thanks to people like Richard and Gavin being kind enough to reply to emails i sent, the facts behind that Jaguar Promo.magazine, Cores attitude towards the Jaguar (more or less DOA), we also have Susie Hamilton's chat with C+VG about 32X, Saturn+PS1 projects, NO Jaguar mentioned, Mike Fulton's technical comments, Swagman Team talking about games origins, again NO Jaguar involvement etc etc.

 

 

I mean what are people expecting on other forums, me to email Jeremy Smith (again) and say, look, really sorry to trouble you, but after a lot of digging, multiple sources etc, there's still doubts that Tomb Raider was'nt like your flagship Jag CD game, could you stop what your doing and give us the full story? even then i suspect there'd be claims of..he never said that :-)

 

 

 

 

 

:-) Thought the 'fuss' that broke out after i put up multiple sources comments on Creature shock CD being a no-go was funny, but this? i dunno, internet cracks me up at times.

[Lost Dragon]

Actually, thought in for a penny....

 

 

So i bloody well have emailed Jeremy Smith, AGAIN, again mentioned i'd been vouched for by his buisness partner so not some spammer, showed him the interview with Richard and...LINKED to the very thread where claims we still knew NOTHING...were being made.

 

I apoligised for troubling him again and explained how crazy it was that even after multiple sources etc had gone on record over the years, origins of game discovered, truth behind promo.screens detailed etc, still there was doubt, could he (rather than do an interview) finally clear up speculation over just what Core had planned for Jaguar and those claims over Jaguar Tomb Raider?.

 

See i honestly think some people hope i'm just going to stop doing these investigations into Lost game claims by press etc, but given my involvement with Unseen64/GTW etc, they'd best get used to'em, loads more to come yet. :-)

 

Still, lets hope Jeremy has time this year to answer a question or 2.Fingers crossed eh?

[Lost Dragon]

Regarding the 32X vs Jaguar debate which has cropped up here:

Sega Europe's product development team said of 'Mars' (32X) ' For polygon graphics your going to get excellent performance...not quite as good as Saturn of course, but clearly in that league.The idea of Mars was really an extension to the SVP Chip in Virtua Racing, originally the idea of having a seperate SVPadaptor was considered, but when the guys in Japan looked into how it could be improved, they discovered a lot more could be done'

They also said in terms of performance that Mars would compare 'extremely favourably' with Atari's Jaguar....

See that's how PR people from Sega did speculation back then, no performance figures of any kin, just pure speculation and meaningless comparisons.

[Lost Dragon]

You also need to realise Sega invested a cool £7.5 Million at the time in a new London HQ after they decided they wanted to get 'serious' about having games for their platforms developed in Europe.As a result the 'core' development team set to work on the very 1st Saturn and 'Mars' games and in the early days were looking to recruit over 30 staff.Just how big was the average Jaguar development team?.

Plus Sega at times were a little more honest about 32X games, talking of 32X Virtua Racing, they said that whilst they could'nt say the consumer would get an arcade perfect conversion (ie 32X would match Sega's Model 1 Virtua Racing board, in terms of power), it'd certainly be getting there and would 'knock the spots off' the MD SVP chip version of Virtua Racing.

[Bill Loguidice]

Despite the protestations of Jaguar super fans, I'd easily say the 32X was at least equivalent to the Jaguar in terms of raw horsepower in relation to software that actually saw release, and may have even been arguably superior in processing 3D (again, based on what we saw). It wasn't even like the 32X necessarily got the best of the best software, but it seemed like they had a few key developers (Sega being one of them) that could better take advantage of the day's technology than Atari.

 

In any case, though my feelings on generations and classifications related to such are generally ambivalent, I'd have no problem placing platforms like the CD-i with MPEG cartridge, 32X, 3DO, Jaguar, Pippin, and CD32 in the same "generation" in terms of overall technical capabilities, with one or the other excelling in one or more areas and disappointing in one or more areas. One could certainly also include platforms like the Neo Geo in that discussion as well, but that was such an unusual case (literal arcade games at home, with all that entails including lack of games with relative depth) that I could take or leave its placement in that group.

 

What's disappointing is that none of those aforementioned platforms really distinguished themselves in terms of software and establishing a significant market presence in comparison to the 16-bit platforms, which were being pushed for all they were worth. That's why it's fair to say that the release of the Sega Saturn established a true dividing line (which the PlayStation ran with), since it started to finally enabled the types of 3D-centric games (on expressly-designed 3D hardware) that would have clearly been impossible on the 16-bit platforms and difficult to recognizably replicate (our Tomb Raider example) on the aforementioned "between" generation platforms.

[JagChris]

 

You also need to realise Sega invested a cool £7.5 Million at the time in a new London HQ after they decided they wanted to get 'serious' about having games for their platforms developed in Europe.As a result the 'core' development team set to work on the very 1st Saturn and 'Mars' games and in the early days were looking to recruit over 30 staff.Just how big was the average Jaguar development team?

 

 

 

Probably 3. Engine/gameplay, graphics and then a sound guy. 3-5? Rough guess?

[Lost Dragon]

Right i only ever had Soul Star on the Mega CD, thought it was technically impressive but bit Meh, give me Battlecorps or Thunderhawk any day, but is the claim of Jaguar CD version being 'out-sourced' to someone else rather than done in-house, true? because IF it is....

Comments else where about it being 'Interesting that Richard Barc. didn't remember any Jaguar games being coded by Core when there is a fully complete game out there by them (Soul Star)' are bit odd......

If it was'nt done in house, then no, Richard would'nt have had much to do with it i guess.I don't want to email Richard again, just to ask this.

Plus as for being 'complete' i thought the version out there on Youtube etc was in need of some finishing off, bugs removed etc.

Over to those who know history of Jag Soul Star please.

[Lost Dragon]

@Bill, as EX-Owner of both a Jaguar and 32X and being firmly in camp of 'i can only judge both on commercial games i've played on both' i have no issue putting 32X in same 'basket' as on par with Jaguar, performance wise.Whilst i hated the game itself, Metal Head looked superb (but you'd find me firmly in Iron Solider camp for far superior Mech game).

 

32X had in my humble view, the far better 2D fighter in form of MK II, far better polygon racer, Virtua Racing, far better polygon 3D fighter in form of Virtua Fighter.

 

 

Never played Zero 5 or Battlesphere etc so not sure how they stack up to Darxide or Virtua star wars.

 

But at the end of the day, to me it simply boils down to Sega having the resources Atari did'nt.Sega were to be fair juggling a lot of systems when 32X was being coded for, the whole Mars, Saturn Jupiter era of Sega....

 

Then never played any of the Sega 32X CD games either-don't think i missed much in that instance though, have i? :-)

[sd32]

Never played Zero 5 or Battlesphere etc so not sure how they stack up to Darxide or Virtua star wars.

 

32X Stellar Assault is better than both, Star Wars Arcade and Darxide, and compares pretty well with Zero 5 and Battlesphere, IMHO.

Edited February 1, 2015 by sd32

[sd32]

In any case, though my feelings on generations and classifications related to such are generally ambivalent, I'd have no problem placing platforms like the CD-i with MPEG cartridge, 32X, 3DO, Jaguar, Pippin, and CD32 in the same "generation" in terms of overall technical capabilities, with one or the other excelling in one or more areas and disappointing in one or more areas. One could certainly also include platforms like the Neo Geo in that discussion as well, but that was such an unusual case (literal arcade games at home, with all that entails including lack of games with relative depth) that I could take or leave its placement in that group.

 

 

The CDi and CD32 in the same generation of tech capabilities of the Jaguar?, no way!

 

 

CDi cant even do 2d properly in comparison to the SNES and Genesis, let alone the Jaguar. And in 3d?, it gets beat even worse. Doom, Iron Soldier, Battlesphere in CDi is as far fetched as Quake 2 in the Jaguar. CDi was released in 1989 or 1990 and had no hardware support for sprites or polygons, so its no surprise. Have you read interviews with CDi developers?. They talk like they pulled a miracle on it, with games like Lemmings, MS Pacman, Galaga, etc. Atlantis regarded as an impressive fps for the CDi, and its just cant compare with the Jags fps.

 

 

CD32 also gets beat pretty bad by the Jag, hell, even the SNES and Genesis have advantages over it. You dont like going by tech specs, just check out the libraries of games, no contest. The Jag beats it as bad as the Saturn beats the Jag, except the CD32 came out only a few months before the Jaguar (and costed more), Saturn came out over a year after the Jag.

 

 

You didnt mention it, but the Fujtsu Marty also gets outclassed by the Jaguar, but i would put it ahead of CD32. Also released only a few months before the Jaggy, costed a ton more.

 

 

Also you didnt mention the NEC PCFX, i would put it around the same level of CD32, Marty and Neo Geo. No hardware support for 3d. Relies on the old Supergrafx tech too much, so even in 2d the Jag beats it, even though the KING chip seems pretty powerfuil for background stuff. Released a bit over a year after the Jag, also costed much more.

 

 

Neo Geo only has the massive amount of memory as an advantage over the Jaguar. Cant do software tricks on it, from what i understand, so forget about polygons on NG. Even Wolfenstein 3d would be a challenge to port, for that reason.

 

 

Actually, the Jags 3d capabilities are pretty impressive compared with the systems i just mentioned, and it also outclasses them in 2d. Damn, that Jaguar is such a beast in comparison!

 

 

I would agree about the 3DO, Pippin and 32X being on the same class as the Jaguar, though. But the others?, i would go as far as to say that the diference between the Jag and them is as big as between the Saturn and the Jaguar.

 

 

Damn Bill, it seems like we never agree with our posts, hehe sorry man. I actually like you, you are a good poster, not a hot headed fanboy like myself, hehe.

Edited February 1, 2015 by sd32

[+save2600]

Some of those comments are a little surprising, but I think I get the context in which they are written. Perhaps he is referring to their software libraries as a whole. Each of those systems are competitively and universally capable of underwhelming and disappointing.

[Lost Dragon]

Streching it a bit, but like the Jaguar (which was originally 'intended, to take on MD/SNES and 3DO), Phillips seemed to change it's stance once the competion became apparent...CD-i originally seemed to be marketed as a 'multi-media' device, not a games machine (yet Atari were keen to stress when Jag had CD drive, it'd be a true multi-media device...), yet when it under-performed, Phillips seemed to rebrand it as something of a games machine with things like Chaos Control, Burn Cycle etc being heavily advertised along with Little Devil etc.

Plus the 2 seemed to have same games next to planned releases in cases like Creature Shock, Littil Divil etc.

Also was'nt Heart Of Darkness development originally funded by Phillips for CD-i, then put up to auction? claims went (and i've not looked into this one that much) that Atari wanted it as a flagship Jag CD game, but were out bid? or is that more urban legend in terms of Lost Jaguar game lore?.

[sd32]

Some of those comments are a little surprising, but I think I get the context in which they are written. Perhaps he is referring to their software libraries as a whole. Each of those systems are competitively and universally capable of underwhelming and disappointing.

LOL, right, if thats what he meant, then i get it, hehe. Didnt see his post from that perspective.

[Agent X]

We also know thanks to people like Richard and Gavin being kind enough to reply to emails i sent, the facts behind that Jaguar Promo.magazine, Cores attitude towards the Jaguar (more or less DOA), we also have Susie Hamilton's chat with C+VG about 32X, Saturn+PS1 projects, NO Jaguar mentioned, Mike Fulton's technical comments, Swagman Team talking about games origins, again NO Jaguar involvement etc etc.

 

 

I mean what are people expecting on other forums, me to email Jeremy Smith (again) and say, look, really sorry to trouble you, but after a lot of digging, multiple sources etc, there's still doubts that Tomb Raider was'nt like your flagship Jag CD game, could you stop what your doing and give us the full story? even then i suspect there'd be claims of..he never said that :-)

 

 

:-) Thought the 'fuss' that broke out after i put up multiple sources comments on Creature shock CD being a no-go was funny, but this? i dunno, internet cracks me up at times.

 

Well, like you said, it's interesting that some people within Core Design insisted vehemently that their studio had nothing to do with the Jaguar, and yet SoulStar exists. Perhaps the Jaguar CD version was outsourced to an external developer by the game's publisher, with few (or no) people within the actual Core Design studio being involved.

 

This brings me to your last paragraph mentioning Creature Shock. I know that (similar to Core Design's remarks about the Jaguar) Jez San has claimed that his studio (Argonaut, developers of Creature Shock) never had any contact with the Jaguar whatsoever. They never possessed a development kit, and on a personal level he had only doubts and skepticism towards Atari. The conclusion was that Creature Shock for Jaguar CD must not have ever existed, aside from "wishful thinking" in Atari PR and vaporware mock-up screen shots (probably from another platform) in Jaguar ads and on the Jaguar CD box.

 

But then I recently came across this old thread:

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/144162-mega-list-of-over-300-unique-released-unreleased-jaguar-games/

 

Pay careful attention to posts # 21, 23, and 29 in that thread. They're from Ken Love, who worked at Virgin Interactive during the time that those games would've been in development for the Jaguar. In post #21, he says the following:

 

I know that Creature Shock got as far as a running some video segments. I remember seeing it in the office back then. :-/

 

 

With that in mind, it's possible Creature Shock for Jaguar CD might have actually existed in some form, with Virgin choosing to outsource its development to another group (not Argonaut).

 

Since Argonaut wasn't directly involved, San might have been truthful in his comments, but his lack of involvement doesn't exclude the possibility of the port being handled by someone else.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

 

Never played Zero 5 or Battlesphere etc so not sure how they stack up to Darxide or Virtua star wars.

 

 

As a game, Darxide is 3rd person 3D Asteroids. I have given is a chance several times but I find it boring. Asteroids pop into the screen at a very close clipping distance and you blow them up. UFOs will pop up for you to fight where it starts to sort of get exciting but they are "bullet sponges" too so that can be a pain. If all you care about are graphics then it looks nice but the Jag could handle it - Space War 2000 would be the best comparison and that has a higher color depth. I wouldn't compare Zero 5 to Darxide because it is completely different with a very strong focus on arcade action. While not everything is fully textured in Z5 like it is in Darxide, Z5 screams along at 60FPS, while Darxide struggles to maintain 30, with plenty of dips there too.

 

Re: BattleSphere vs. Star Wars 32X, there are a few similarities but some apples/oranges comparisons as well. The creators of BattleSphere liked to compare their work more with TIE Fighter and Star Raiders. Star Wars 32X offered the arcade mode (based upon the Star Wars Arcade from 1994 that no one is familiar with) as well as that 32X mode. So at the end of the day, it had the benefits of Sega's arcade development behind it, as well as that type of game design. With BattleSphere's several modes of play, there is plenty to do and how it goes about it is top notch - it is a solid game that plays to the few strengths the Jaguar has in the realm of 3D - z-buffered gouraud shaded polygons with a little bit of texturing, some interesting lighting effects and the frame rate stays solid. Then there is the ability to play networked, which is a lot of fun if you get the chance at a gathering of Jag fans.

 

RE: Soul Star, it would be interesting to know how this came about although not crucial to know. I have the proto and it has Core Design credited there. My Jag is dead so I can't double check the credits but as Agent X just said, it does exist, mostly playable.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Shaggy the Atarian