Finally i have the proof behind those Jaguar CD screenshots.....

[108 Stars]

There's always the big IF coders had done this and that...

 

The thing is, it is clear that even under best circumstances the Jaguar can not hope to rival a PS1 in 3D. So we talk a PS1 game on Jag, we talk scaled down.

 

The 68000 argument is very old and correct in that it WAS used a lot of times; but those games are also usually the notorious 16-bit ports. Pitfall, Flashback, Theme Park, Evolution, Syndicate, Zool... all the 16-bittish stuff is where that argument comes from. I'd believe people like the devs of polygon games such as Iron Soldier did use the custom chips well. The Jaguar may have suffered from lazy ports of 68000 games (or profited, as in fact they are some of the best gameplaywise), but there are also some 3D games that show its capabilities in that area.

 

Clearly, every system that was not a success has not seen its limitations fully explored. Not the Jaguar, not the 3DO, not the 32X, not the Saturn. But fully exploring those capabilities also has limits. Vectorman on the Genesis/MD looks awesome, has prerendered graphics and over 100 colors on screen... but it doesn't look like Clockwork Knight or even just DKC. It is the try to approach a standard as close as possible. Duke 3D is a good achievement on MD, but it is just not at all the same game as Duke 3D on anything else.

 

In the case of TR we have relatively high detail models, huge levels with rather complex architecture (not just square rooms), plus enemies including dinosaurs, all textured. Sure, you can scale it down, get rid of the textures, or even replace poly models with sprites... make the architecture simple... but how far is it until TR ceases being TR?

 

I think stuff like IS2, FFL or Black Ice/White Noise are actually pushing the Jaguar pretty well. The latter is even a bit comparable to TR; 3rd person game with polygon characters in a polygon world. Impressive, but nothing going on yet, and with buildings of endless rectangular rooms. Not quite suited to mimic the uneven caves of TR, even without enemies.

Edited January 9, 2015 by 108 Stars

[Lost Dragon]

travistouchdown makes an interesting point:The 'press' seemed to say Jaguar CD video quality was THE best of it's era (seemingly based on a demo of Jaws Atari had running on it at shows etc)?.I wonder how true this was (again, having never owned one myself).

 

 

I later remember Saturn FMV sequences in games being remarked as weaker/more grainy than those of the PS1, yet again, not being technically minded, never understood this aspect either, as by then, was'nt the hardware standard of 16.8 Million colours to choose from, standard in hardware?

 

Was it due to something like the video playback software (codecs?) hardware used or what?.

[Lost Dragon]

One game that made me bloody glad i'd bought a Jaguar and not just bought it on MD was Syndicate, i hated what they'd done with it on MD/SNES (have it on EA Replay on PSP-Still cannot bring myself to touch it, uggh) and whilst the zoom function added to the Jaguar version was'nt worth a wank, Jaguar had best cart version of the game.

 

Given the sequel (fantastic game) Syndicate Wars appeared on PS1 (and was being worked on for Saturn), i'm surprised i've never heard anyone say Jaguar could of handled a version of that.It always seems to be claims of Jaguar: NFS/WC3/Tomb Raider/Daytona USA/Quake etc, plus occ.Magic Carpet claim.

 

Guess there are'nt a huge amount of Syndicate fans in the more vocal parts of the Jaguar community? :-)

[Bill Loguidice]

Again, not to pick on the Jaguar here, but the 3DO did do FMV much better in my opinion for whatever reason. It was definitely sharper. It could be nothing more than the resolution differences, though. As for the best FMV system of the era, I'd have to go with a DV equipped CD-i. That was an FMV monster for obvious reasons.

[108 Stars]

It was indeed codecs/compression. The PlayStation featured motion JPEG, which was pretty sweet for the time as I understand. The Saturn had lesser built-in video, but offered an MPEG-1 video card in Asia.

[Bill Loguidice]

I think stuff like IS2, FFL or Black Ice/White Noise are actually pushing the Jaguar pretty well. The latter is even a bit comparable to TR; 3rd person game with polygon characters in a polygon world. Impressive, but nothing going on yet, and with buildings of endless rectangular rooms. Not quite suited to mimic the uneven caves of TR, even without enemies.

 

I find Black Ice/White Noise impressive as well, but it's nothing more than a technical demo, as you say, and even with little going on, it's appreciably sluggish. In many ways, it feels like a mashup of a Wolfenstein/Doom-style game environment-wise and a free roaming 3D game like a Tomb Raider. But I still don't consider it a sufficient example of the latter to indicate that the system could pull off any recognizable version of the game. The environmental variety/complexity is missing, as is the speed. It's sufficient for an adventure-style game as-is, which it seems that the devs were going for. It actually reminds me of the 3DO's Virtuoso, which actually was more or less a pure action game, though it too was deliberately paced likely for technical reasons.

[Lost Dragon]

Cheers 108 Stars (i've reached my 'likes quota' for the day it seems). That clears up why there were differences between video playback on the various CD Based systems.

 

As for topic of 32X being pushed further, hmnn...............

 

Darxide, Metal Head and Virtua Fighter seemed to push the damn thing pretty hard.

 

And yes, Zyrinx, put out some pretty sweet 32X tech demo's, X-Men looked nice, but again for myself, 32X firmly falls into the i think we saw the best of it, during it's commercial life and any improvements to coding would'nt have seen much more than improved frame rates etc.

 

Plus given how it was treated, it was bloody lucky to get the technically impressive games it did as well.

[Lost Dragon]

I'm with Bill here.Sorry but in my cynical eyes, you cannot 'count' unfinished games as any real 'proof'.

 

My reasoning:If you look at early preview code Lobotomy showed to the press of Saturn Quake and compare it to final, retail code, you'll see the graphical comprimises they had to make to maintain balance between frame rate, resolution, lighting, A.I etc.

 

But had game never been finished, only got as far as say video existing of that early version, i just know certain parts of the Saturn community would be parading it around as 'proof' Saturn was never pushed as far as it could of been.

 

Or if you want a Jaguar example early video of AVP, much faster frame rate etc, but half the actual game gubbins missing, but if that's all that existed.....

[Zerosquare]

I later remember Saturn FMV sequences in games being remarked as weaker/more grainy than those of the PS1, yet again, not being technically minded, never understood this aspect either, as by then, was'nt the hardware standard of 16.8 Million colours to choose from, standard in hardware?

Supporting 16.8 million colours is only one part of the battle.

 

24-bit (16.8 million colours) graphics requires a lot of memory and bandwidth. For that reason, they're rarely used on the PS1, and even more so on the Jaguar (that has no dedicated VRAM, which exacerbates the problem). Most games use 16-bit (65,536 colours) graphics at most, some use only 8-bit (256 colours).

 

Then, you have the CD-ROM bandwidth. You can't get more than ~340 KB/s in the best case from a 2x drive. Which means you have to use tight video compression to compensate. But then, decompression requires lots of CPU power and memory bandwidth, which are a bottleneck on consoles from that era.

 

The PS1 had a dedicated coprocessor whose only job was decompressing video using a JPEG-like algorithm, with only minimal intervention from the CPU. As a result, the PS1 could manage decent video playback quality. Other consoles had to rely on generic hardware, so video quality suffered.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Zerosquare

[Lost Dragon]

And again thanks (this time to Zerosquare) for the heads up on why you needed far more than just 16.8 Million colours.I came from the MCD era and all i ever heard of was talk of at best 64 colours on screen (using clever coding) and i think Eternal Champions on CD might have used some vodoo coding to get 128? and as for FMV, Bwahhhhha etc as again even improved FMV games like Tomcat Alley looked rough as hardware lacked the colours of say the SNES to do FMV 'properly (but it's ok kids Sega to the rescue, buy a 32X for your MD and MCD set up (that's another plug socket needed) and buy 32X CD games for 'True Video' CD games on Sega (or whatever the marketing tag was).

 

 

And folks wonder why i'm so cynical even at my ripe old age.It was always pay more, but this..who knows, it might even deliver what we promised the last bloody add-on we flogged you, promised to.....

[Bill Loguidice]

And again thanks (this time to Zerosquare) for the heads up on why you needed far more than just 16.8 Million colours.I came from the MCD era and all i ever heard of was talk of at best 64 colours on screen (using clever coding) and i think Eternal Champions on CD might have used some vodoo coding to get 128? and as for FMV, Bwahhhhha etc as again even improved FMV games like Tomcat Alley looked rough as hardware lacked the colours of say the SNES to do FMV 'properly (but it's ok kids Sega to the rescue, buy a 32X for your MD and MCD set up (that's another plug socket needed) and buy 32X CD games for 'True Video' CD games on Sega (or whatever the marketing tag was).

 

 

And folks wonder why i'm so cynical even at my ripe old age.It was always pay more, but this..who knows, it might even deliver what we promised the last bloody add-on we flogged you, promised to.....

 

You know, in regards to Tomcat Alley, it's true it lacked colors and had the "screen door" effect, but it was more or less full screen, which was a lot better than the usual postage stamp-sized video on the PCs at the time. Even then, there were certain advantages a console had over a PC, simply because you knew exactly what hardware you were dealing with and could optimize accordingly. That's why, for instance, 7th Guest ran so well on the DV-equipped CD-i in comparison to even beefy 486 PCs at the time.

[108 Stars]

Cheers 108 Stars (i've reached my 'likes quota' for the day it seems). That clears up why there were differences between video playback on the various CD Based systems.

 

As for topic of 32X being pushed further, hmnn...............

 

Darxide, Metal Head and Virtua Fighter seemed to push the damn thing pretty hard.

 

And yes, Zyrinx, put out some pretty sweet 32X tech demo's, X-Men looked nice, but again for myself, 32X firmly falls into the i think we saw the best of it, during it's commercial life and any improvements to coding would'nt have seen much more than improved frame rates etc.

 

Plus given how it was treated, it was bloody lucky to get the technically impressive games it did as well.

 

Nah, I think the 32X was not much better explored than the Jaguar, if at all. It was just at an accelerated speed, everything happening in one year as opposed to the Jag's 3 years.

Pretty much all of the 32X games were rushed to release, including VF and the likes. Japan was focusing on the Saturn, and 32X games were produced on the side. Personally, I believe that the 32X is actually the closest competitor to the Jaguar in terms of power. Both generational stepping stones for better hardware; both with basic 3D power, but not made for the full power 3D enviroments that were required later. Both with fairly similar technical achievements. Where VF shined with fluid gameplay, FFL had textures. Metal Head was a mech game with great textures, IS had destructible enviroments but lacked textures. Virtua Racing beat both Checkered Flag and Club Drive; Doom on Jag beat 32X Doom, but then again 32X Doom only used one of the two CPUs.

 

You cannot expect Sega's "B-Teams" (as the top people were working on Saturn games) to actually push a systems capabilities to its limits within a single year.

 

No, I think 32X and Jaguar are close competitors in 3D, with the 3DO being the platform clearly ahead.

I'm with Bill here.Sorry but in my cynical eyes, you cannot 'count' unfinished games as any real 'proof'.

Then you are with me too, as Bill basically agreed with me that what BI/WN offers is still a far way off what TR required.^^

 

And again thanks (this time to Zerosquare) for the heads up on why you needed far more than just 16.8 Million colours.I came from the MCD era and all i ever heard of was talk of at best 64 colours on screen (using clever coding) and i think Eternal Champions on CD might have used some vodoo coding to get 128? and as for FMV, Bwahhhhha etc as again even improved FMV games like Tomcat Alley looked rough as hardware lacked the colours of say the SNES to do FMV 'properly (but it's ok kids Sega to the rescue, buy a 32X for your MD and MCD set up (that's another plug socket needed) and buy 32X CD games for 'True Video' CD games on Sega (or whatever the marketing tag was).

 

 

And folks wonder why i'm so cynical even at my ripe old age.It was always pay more, but this..who knows, it might even deliver what we promised the last bloody add-on we flogged you, promised to.....

There's always the myths about the Eternal Champions games, but it is just myths. They never go beyond 64 colors afaik. The MD can do this, see Vectorman and Pier Solar, but not EC. And FMVs are usually 16 or 32 colors only.

Edited January 9, 2015 by 108 Stars

[Clint Thompson]

After seeing a version of Quake being ran on an Atari Falcon, I feel like almost anything is possible on the Jaguar given the proper time/team/tools. The chances of them happening without someone crazy enough to come along and dedicate countless hours of time on such a thing, probaby never. It amazes me how people who get paid to make games tend to do such a shitty job and then comes along some enthusiast that can and is willing to program the beast, make it do whatever they want it to and wow us all.

 

Playing games like Iron Solider II, Skyhammer and Battlemorph (which are what, only 2nd gen games?) reveals just how much progress was being made toward getting some real, quality results from the Jaguar and even then, those weren't completely finished (with the exception of BM) and most likely lacked any real optimization. With all that said, I think Tomb Raider would look like shit on the Jaguar and wouldn't look like the same game or at least very watered down but mostly because the Jaguar lacked RAM... otherwise I think the Jaguar, computationally, could have done an 'ok' job at something along these lines.

[Lost Dragon]

Yep the 1 thing i've learnt these past few years is to go on what the coders themselves tell you about the games, not what the UK Press claimed then or indeed now.

 

I also totally agree Sega had over-streched itself during 32X/Saturn era i mean handing Virtua Racing to Time Warner to handle the Saturn conversion, plus giving Tantalus Manx TT, H.O.T.D etc pretty much spoke volumes to me at the time.

 

But...Darxide was by Frontier Developments and personally i've yet to see any developer get better 3D from the 32X.

 

So i'll stand (alone, yes... :-) ) by what was achived, rather than what might of been.

 

Doom was rushed to the market and a very bad 'advert' for the hardware.

 

Besides, i'm last person to talk about 3D on 32X, i'd always hoped Sega would of used the hardware to do Deluxe versions of it's 2D Arcade games myself....

[Lost Dragon]

Excuse my utter ignorance on this, as not a Falcon owner, but could someone give me some idea why Falcon has a 'version' of Quake (no idea how it stands up) yet no-one seems to have attempted a version on Jaguar?.

 

 

I asume it's far 'easier' (if that's anything like the right word..) to code it on the Falcon?.

 

I'm not trying to bait anyone, honest to god not, just after hearing so much about Quake and Jaguar in same sentance over my years since selling my Jaguar, i'm honestly curious.

[+save2600]

Excuse my utter ignorance on this, as not a Falcon owner, but could someone give me some idea why Falcon has a 'version' of Quake

 

Let's not forget about the Amiga versions!

 

 

 

…wasn't somebody playing around with the Doom engine a while back on the Jag, to create Quake? Or Heretic I guess.

[108 Stars]

After seeing a version of Quake being ran on an Atari Falcon, I feel like almost anything is possible on the Jaguar given the proper time/team/tools.

 

In the end, pretty much anything is possible with enough time and madness.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INZR9P_SnjY#t=11

 

But...Darxide was by Frontier Developments and personally i've yet to see any developer get better 3D from the 32X.

 

So i'll stand (alone, yes... :-) ) by what was achived, rather than what might of been.

It may be the best, I am not sure because of the framerate issues; BUT Frontier Developments was not a top technical dev house at the time for consoles, Darxide may have been their very first console game ever. I highly doubt that any team can push a hardware with its very first game for it.

 

I agree on the what was achieved factor generally... but the same goes for the Jaguar. People can daydream all day long what might have been doable on either system. In the end, we have what we have. Both offer a similar 3D experience imo; one had the drawback of short system lifespan, the other of low budget. An even match of handicaps for me.

 

And to be on topic: Neither would have pulled off a decent version of TR imo.

Edited January 9, 2015 by 108 Stars

[Clint Thompson]

In the end, pretty much anything is possible with enough time and madness.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INZR9P_SnjY#t=11

 

Nooo wayy! lol... that's awesome haha

 

That Canon printer probably has 8x the amount of RAM the Jaguar does. Not sure if that plays into how this works in the video at all but just saying. That's part of the advantage of the Falcon for example, having 14MB or more of RAM makes a huge difference. Just like Maximum Force / Area 51 style games - just an extra 2-4MB of RAM made such an incredible difference.

[JAGUAR]

There's this

[JagChris]

 

Let's not forget about the Amiga versions!

 

 

 

…wasn't somebody playing around with the Doom engine a while back on the Jag, to create Quake? Or Heretic I guess.

 

 

Falcon has a couple versions of Quake I think. One for an accelerated CT060 version. I think 1 and 2 are on there.

 

And one man is rebuilding the Quake II engine to run on a stock Falcon just to see how far he can get. And he's doing pretty well.

 

Why? I am sure you can think up some reasons without help.

[JagChris]

Excuse my utter ignorance on this, as not a Falcon owner, but could someone give me some idea why Falcon has a 'version' of Quake (no idea how it stands up) yet no-one seems to have attempted a version on Jaguar?.

 

 

I asume it's far 'easier' (if that's anything like the right word..) to code it on the Falcon?.

 

I'm not trying to bait anyone, honest to god not, just after hearing so much about Quake and Jaguar in same sentance over my years since selling my Jaguar, i'm honestly curious.

 

Yeah I think the Falcon has debugging capabilities and compilers for the dsp/cpu/fpu. I'm not sure but the emulators are more advanced.

[+remowilliams]

There's this001.JPG

 

Yes, that's what we call a Mr. Kizza.

[JagChris]

 

Yes, that's what we call a Mr. Kizza.

 

 

That was an actual article back in the day. I remember that article. Wasn't Laird.

[Zerosquare]

Decent ARM chips and RAM cost peanuts these days. This printer probably has better specs on CPU and RAM than the original PSP. Running Doom on this is a fun hack, but it's not technically really impressive.

 

And Doom uses a raycaster. Tomb Raider is a whole different story.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Zerosquare

[+remowilliams]

That was an actual article back in the day. I remember that article. Wasn't Laird.

 

Yes I know that, he's the idiot that's been running around for the last several years using crap exactly like that, with unrelated screenshots, as 'proof'

 

Decent ARM chips and RAM cost peanuts these days. This printer probably has better specs on CPU and RAM than the original PSP. Running Doom on this is a fun hack, but it's not technically really impressive.

 

And Doom uses a raycaster. Tomb Raider is a whole different story.

 

Mine has a 600Mhz ARM and 1GB of memory. Surely that means the Jaguar can do it...