Is a VBXE Useful?

[+Larry]

No question that the VBXE is a technical marvel. But there are a few issues that keep me from installing mine. I still have a new VBXE (Candle version) waiting for installation. And I still am procrastinating. Why?

 

#1 Here in NTSC land, there are not a lot of monitors that can do RGB. You can find an old RGB monitor that likely has already long surpassed its MTBF, so is likely living on "borrowed time." Plus they are big and bulky by today's standards. Some modern TV's have component RGB, so with a converter you can use that. But each year, more and more TV's seem to go just to HDMI and maybe with a VGA input. But Component RGB is still available -- the choices are just somewhat limited. You can even find a very few TV's that still have S-Video. If VBXE just would work well with some form of VGA....

 

#2 There are not very many compelling applications. The best one is surely FJC's Last Word. There are a couple of demos. There is Drac030's Spectrum emulator for 65816 + accelerator. But right now there are no accelerators that can be purchased that can run it. One can also use the 80-column capability for regular use. But most software that is set up for 40-columns looks a bit strange on an 80-column display.

 

#3 There is Altirra available. Considering the limited software, using the VBXE in Altirra seems like a really good choice. No new hardware or monitor, and just a mouse-click or two when you want to use it.

 

So what do you think? Is there a compelling reason to take the plunge? Would it be worth it to you to buy a new TV/monitor, get a converter, and install it? If you have already installed it, are you happy with the results? How did the installation go? Was it worth it?

 

-Larry

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rybags]

#1 you probably have more monitor options - a scan doubler for 60 Hz should work on practically any VGA monitor, at 50 Hz the options are very limited.

 

#2 yep - if you average it out, it probably comes to less than 1 every 3 months since VBXE has been around if you count games, apps, demos at a usable state or better.

 

#3 you could say the same thing for old computers, full stop. The real thing always beats a simulation.

 

And not to forget the better quality video, but of course that throws you back at #1 where scarcity of capable monitors is an issue. IMO the next step for new VBXE should be to move towards component video, practically everyone has 1 or more TVs that will do it.

 

Of course don't forget RGB to S-Video converters. They're cheaper and in fairly common use by owners of arcade games where the monitor has died and they've used a modern TV to replace it.

[flashjazzcat]

And with reference to component video: something will surely come along eventually which outputs video in this format, so take heed and proceed with caution when hacking up the A8's case with RGB jacks.

Edited January 29, 2015 by flashjazzcat

[ctirad]

The

IMO the next step for new VBXE should be to move towards component video, practically everyone has 1 or more TVs that will do it.

With an FPGA you can easily stream DVI/HDMI directly. For the low resolutions used in Atari/VBXE it is a piece of cake. The hardware is even simpler, because you don't need a video DAC. Analog is dead.

[Jinks]

Analog is dead.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

[pixelmischief]

In my case, I was already geared for RGB as the best possible output for all my gaming consoles. To this end, I have SCART cables for everything. To get it all up onto an HDMI capable TV, I have a SCART to HDMI converter. When the VBXE came out, it seemed natural to me. I use an RGB to SCART cable into the converter and bang. I'm on big screen via HDMI. Works fantastic, really.

[Bryan]

I just don't see the point in modifying a machine so heavily and directing A8 development away from native software. Dual Pokey and RAM upgrades are already too difficult for many people. As cool as VBXE is, the A8 community isn't really big enough to generate widespread support for such a device.

[flashjazzcat]

It's worth it for the video quality. This will be depressing for the designers, of course, who envisaged a new age of A8 graphics, but I doubt a device which lacked the FX core and simply output RGB would be dramatically cheaper anyway.

[Bryan]

For that you could simply have a GTIA drop-in board.

[flashjazzcat]

Well: I simply repeat what I was told when I suggested that very thing.

 

Let's see someone produce such a thing cheaply and I'll buy them.

Edited January 30, 2015 by flashjazzcat

[+bob1200xl]

What is cheap?

 

Bob

[+Larry]

In my case, I was already geared for RGB as the best possible output for all my gaming consoles. To this end, I have SCART cables for everything. To get it all up onto an HDMI capable TV, I have a SCART to HDMI converter. When the VBXE came out, it seemed natural to me. I use an RGB to SCART cable into the converter and bang. I'm on big screen via HDMI. Works fantastic, really.

 

That sounds really useful and doable! That HDMI cable to the TV is a whole lot nicer than the big component cables, and virtually all TV's have HDMI now.

 

-Larry

[+Larry]

What is cheap?

 

Bob

 

Hi Bob-

 

What approach to this (overall) video issue would you take?

 

-Larry

[+bob1200xl]

The GTIA outputs a digital LUMA signal and a phase encoded CHROMA signal (which can be decoded to a digital signal) at 60hz (50hz for PAL). If you merge two frames (at 30hz), you can output a high resolution digital graphic from a frame buffer. The image is output at 60hz, just the frame update is at 30hz - no flicker. I don't know what kind of processing it would take to run HDMI, but VGA would be pretty easy. 320x192/2=> 640x384 or 160x192/4=>320x384 or ...

 

The XL14 just happens to clear the GTIA - how fortunate.

 

Bob

 

 

 

[+Larry]

 

The XL14 just happens to clear the GTIA - how fortunate.

 

Bob

 

Why, what a coincidence...

 

-Larry

[+remowilliams]

The VBXE is a neat piece of hardware, but mine still hasn't moved off the shelf for install nor is it likely too.

 

I initially wanted it for VGA output, and I do have a very nice upscaler (XRGB mini). But having no use case beyond VGA for me, and the fact that the XRGB mini does such an incredible job with svideo left the VBXE as a very marginal install option. Which is amusing I suppose having the upscaler needed already

 

And then there's the MiST with it's A8 core...

[flashjazzcat]

What is cheap?

 

Bob

Twenty or thirty quid.

[fujidude]

If I still had my physical 800XL I would most definately want this installed. If I needded to, I would just adapt the RGB to HDMI. But it would be installed. The 80 column alone is worth it to me. 40 column is just... well yuk.

Edited January 30, 2015 by fujidude

[Shawn Jefferson]

As far as monitors go, I think the Commodore monitors do RGB right? I'm personally using mine with an Atari ST monitor that I got fairly cheap (got rid of the ST it came with of course!)

[ricortes]

I always joke about how frugal Atari 8 bit users are.

 

There's several lines of USB to VGA chips that are out now. They would make a perfect add on to something like an SIO2SD board. It would probably only add $10 to the cost if they were included. I thought I saw a couple that could handle ttl serial. The higher res ones do something like 1024x480 in 64k colors.

 

It would be a lot like an XEP80 except run 10x the speed with POKEY and maybe 400 kBAUD with another serial chip or usb interface thrown on the PBI.

 

Hard to tell if it would be successful even at a low price considering the other items like the XEP80, or cpm devices for that matter, didn't gain wide acceptance.

 

Problems like stand alone vs. gloaming onto a new run of something useful like SIO2USB boards means it will cost $50 to break even.

[ctirad]

Pardon? You are really believe, that just because the SIO2USB exists, it can be possible to connect an USB VGA card to Atari and outputs its video thru it?

[Level42]

Technically it's an amazing product for sure, but I fail to see its point.

If I want high res stuff, I can use my Mac. I want to use my A8's BECAUSE it has old school graphics, well at least that is part of it.

It's the same as the last word for me: who wants to use a text program while you can do the on Macs and PCs infinitely better ?

IMHO most of the "serious" software has lost its value on the A8 platform, for me it's mainly the games and demos which keep it alive.

I -did- install a simple stereo because I love the POKEY sound and having 2 in stereo is simply awesome and I could only wish more new games would support it.

 

However, with all such products the trouble is that the number of installed devices is often not interesting to support it. It's like when the STe came out.....very few games supported the extra's on the STe because there were already so many regular STs around....

 

To me retro gaming / computing includes all aspects. Yes I do have Sio2USB, MyIDE cart etc. but I still want to run a 1050.

AND I want a CRT TV with S-video input. I have seen people use cheapo LCDs and the picture simply sucks and/or it LAGS.

Just to try it out, I recently hooked up my composite video modded 2600 to my main LCD TV. The picture sucked but worse....it lags. I played Demon Attack, a game I'm pretty good at and it was just not feeling "right" somehow.....then I understood it was the TV lagging. Quickly hooked it up to my B&O MX4000 CRT TV and it felt right again !! (And looked AWESOME)

[greblus]

Technically it's an amazing product for sure, but I fail to see its point.

The thing is definitely most interesting to people who know/want to learn how to program on 8-bit Atari. The blitter and VBXE's memory can be used for screen data storage and fast copying/moving just to accelerate some parts of your old programs, you can add colours to existing programs without loosing the 8-bit look&feel, more sprites, overlay with transparency... Marvelous things can be done and it still feels like a pure Atari to me. The biggest problem is the learning curve. It's non-trivial, though there is a manual, some games/demos and examples with sources. The most ingenious of them is Candle's Robbo version, I don't like the Gnu Robbo tileset but how he managed to use the original source code to make a new version.

Edited January 31, 2015 by greblus

[gozar]

I have a VBXE that I need to install, the reasons I want it are for the RGB output (I already have an ST monitor) and for 80 columns. The rest of the features are just extras. Could a product be made that just gives 80 columns and RGB out? Will it be markedly easier to install and cheaper? Probably not.

 

The idea above of adding to an SIO2USB device is even easier. A Raspberry Pi can be connected to the SIO with four wires and a line leveler. You'd then have HDMI and composite that is not compatible with any A8 software (if someone writes the software for the Pi and the A8 that is). $30 and you have a plug and play solution. Is it useful?

[pixelmischief]

Am I daft or are some of you suggesting that you can pump video over SIO?