Atari 8-bit Software Preservation Initiative

[Farb]

Messing around with ClrMamePro just now has identified 5 missing titles btw!

 

Those are titles that are still available commercially and/or their contributor requested they not be distributed in the torrent.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Farb

[Kyle22]

Currently seeding.

[Kr0tki]

I really don't want to see _The Doctor__ get any grief over his decision to help out here. I didn't want to take the time from dump analysis to set up torrent hosting and he helped me out. As part of that help, he made a decision to create a single ZIP. I personally don't think it's a big deal but I'm also not a torrent consumer and Kr0tki raises some valid points about simultaneous consumption and seeding. I definitely think a single ZIP was far better than waiting another several weeks (or more) to get a new torrent published.

May I add, that I, too, am grateful that _The Doctor__ has stepped in to help, out of his own free will; I should have express the gratitiude more vocally, sorry that I hadn't.

 

But I cannot agree with the position that such acts of kindness are automatically immune to criticism, as suggested by the sandwich analogy. After all, this whole preservation initiative is 100% based on unpaid work of a growing list of maintainers and contributors. Does that mean that we are not allowed to discuss issues to improve the whole project?

 

This recent change to a single torrent ZIP is a perfect example of a situation where changing something seemingly arbitrary can cause dissatisfaction. People earlier on expressed dissatisfaction with having to re-download a full torrent each release but there was also a negative reaction when I suggested we do away with the torrent and simply make everything available as individual downloads on the website.

As for re-downloading - couldn't ClrMamePro help with this? Assuming that the ClrMamePro DAT file is available to download form the project's website, then each seeder could download it, then run ClrMamePro to update the filenames in their archive according to the new DAT, and then switch to the new torrent, setting the download directory to their archive. This way, if done correctly, the new torrent would not need to be downloaded from scratch, as the torrent client would recognize that some of the files are already in the download directory.

 

Obviously, this approach would work only if we settled on not zipping anything at all.

 

As for doing away with the torrent - I was one of the negatively-reacting ones back then, but I had failed to back my opinion with arguments, so let me explain myself this time. It's not that I'm against the idea of individual downloads. But my concern is, the litigious nature of some of the copyright holders might then endanger the project website's existence, so it would be safer to have a torrent in such case.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Kr0tki

[Pheonix]

Nothing wrong with polite criticism. I even said I thought it would be better as individual zips instead of on large single zip. But there is a difference between polite criticism and what came across to me as downright attacks. And the analogy was given to show an exaggerated case of what I was seeing going on here. Torrent requested, torrent supplied, it doesn't match exactly what some people thought it should have been, so.... the provider, instead of being a generous person, became someone that doesn't care what other people prefer. That was the impression I got from some of the comments. It made it closer to the analogy I made than you implied. The beggar saying thank you and asking for some mustard would be acceptable, polite criticism of the sandwich because of personal taste. But the beggar attacking because it wasn't absolutely perfect, not so much.

 

That's my opinion, if you believe it's perfectly OK to verbally berate someone because their freely given volunteer work doesn't exactly match what someone else thinks it should look like.. Then you are welcome to that opinion.

 

I've said all I plan to say on this particular subject (way off topic.) I made my opinion as clear as I need to. If you disagree with it.. well.. that's your choice. Good day & good luck.

[Kr0tki]

I, too, would like for this digression to end, but then this happens:

downright attacks

attacking because it wasn't absolutely perfect

verbally berate

Umm, aren't you putting too much emotion into others' mouths.

 

Also, if you wish your analogy to be closer to the situation at hand, then consider it's not the beggar who is complaining, it's a fellow social worker that put considerable amount of his unpaid time to prepare the slice of lean meat that's inside the sandwich, but he takes issue with the bread being covered with peanut butter, 'cause it might be dangerous if the beggar has diabetes. But when he raises this issue, he then hears "some beggars like peanut butter, some don't, I don't know what I can do to make you happy".

Edited June 27, 2018 by Kr0tki

[Mr Robot]

When this was a philosophical/technical discussion about the pros/cons of different ways of organising files in a torrent it was a fine discussion, if a bit off topic for this thread.

 

When it becomes just outright criticism of someone and his volunteer help and the way he chose to give the results of nearly a years work to us, for free, because he loves the same thing we do, and believes in preserving it for the future; it's crossing a line.

 

Don't forget that to 'fix' this torrent into any format you like will only take ~30 seconds and ~800MB of disk space.

 

The forest is on fire, don't complain that the trees we save are in plastic pots not terracotta (feel free to mention that terracotta is a more sustainable option though). Saving the trees is the important thing here, you can always re-pot them, just be glad they still exist.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Mr Robot

[+MrFish]

You then offer them a sandwich...

 

I guess you're talking about a sandwich like these, or maybe a couple hundred of these combined.

 

Edited June 27, 2018 by MrFish

[luckybuck]

If someone doesn't like zip files, where is really the problem to unzip them and make a torrent of wish for all? What a waste of time. There is still so much to do regarding preservation. I have some hundred MB files, which still have to go to the Wiki, but preservation always comes first and must be. All these things can be done, when we have the final, reliable archive.

[+kheller2]

Not to derail this wonderful discussion of pros and cons and how wonderful chocolate and peanut butter are together...but I recently was given a stash of original Avalon Hill games, all seem complete, one doesn't even have any of the cardboard fiddly bits punched out... some are even on tape! So, getting my KryoFlux up and running will be a weekend project sometime. In the meantime, I know some people have offered to image some of my other masters for games etc. If that offer is still open, I can easily (now that is) dig them out and get them ready for imaging either by myself or members.

[luckybuck]

Users like you make the community strong and keep it strong, please go ahead! Disks over the ocean would not be good, due to X-ray in the customs. But from 7/26.-29./18 at the Fujiama, in Europe, we should get all disks preserved for those in Europe, who read this.

[+remowilliams]

but I recently was given a stash of original Avalon Hill games

 

Avalon Hill. mmmm

 

[80s_Atari_Guy]

Brilliant torrent. Currently seeding until about 1am UK time - will seed more tomorrow.

 

Apologies for the questions, I have read almost all of the 49 pages.

 

These images are direct copies of the original disks, including the copy protection ?

With the correct hardware, I could write myself a original disk and have a 1:1 perfect copy of the original ?

I was thinking of getting the SuperCard Pro, and backing my own disks up. Any recommendations for a compatible 5 1/4 " drive ?

 

I have some disks not yet in the collection. When I get the funds and time to get a SuperCard Pro, I will back them up and upload them here.

The Disks I have are

Atari Smash Hits 1 - 7.

I see the list is currently missing 2,3,4.

[luckybuck]

:-) Nearly all yes. But the SCP is the only one to write back. Plans are underway to find a solution to write back any ATX image.

 

Just a drive which is able to read all formats. XF551 is a good choice.

 

If you are from the UK. NL is first, will the UK be 2nd? We need a list of all Atari UK programs, which were published. Would like to see them here:

https://atariwiki.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=Articles#section-Articles-GreatBritainAtariSoftware

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[80s_Atari_Guy]

Thanks for the answers, luckybuck.

 

The XF551, is a Atari Drive ? Didn't realise you could use Atari drives.

I have two 1050 drives working perfectly, would these be ok ? Or is it specifically the XF551 ?

[luckybuck]

Depends on your 1050...

Atari Drive <=> SCP <=> PC or Mac or Linux...

I don't of any orignal disks which require DSDD, therefore the 1050 may be suffiecient. Just give it a try. You can buy later a XF551. Getting the SCP is the problem.

[GlowingGhoul]

 

Avalon Hill. mmmm

 

 

Avalon who? Never heard of them.

 

[_The Doctor__]

I should think bit writer, or mega speedy 1050 (with proper rom images) could handle even the toughest images, a thorough testing or specialized Atari 8 bit software package to help make this easy for all to do might be in order. Of course the sio2pc solutions to some of the these Atari drives could use the user friendly treatment...

SCP, Kryo write back of course being the easiest for those who like to stick to one tried and true method.

Edited June 27, 2018 by _The Doctor__

[+DrVenkman]

Wouldn't it be great if some of our modern-day hardware wizards could come up with some kind of modern replacement FDC controller chip that could allow a standard 1050 Tandon or WST mech to write ATX files? Ah, well. One can dream.

 

In the meantime, although I continue to host a seed I mostly can't actually use on my real hardware, DjayBee is doing the Lord's work for us mere mortals.

Edited June 27, 2018 by DrVenkman

[luckybuck]

@The Doctor: "...Kryo write back..."

Did I miss something? The SCP writes back, not the Kryo...

 

@DrVenkman: Yes, DjayBee is the total hero! So good, he is part of the community.

Edited June 27, 2018 by luckybuck

[Pheonix]

The Kryoflux writes back. You just have to convert the ATX back to the Kryoflux's raw flux files first. I don't know if the SCP needs a conversion or not first, don't have one of those. The only issues, I know of, with writing back with a Kryoflux involve index sync and HD/DD drive compatibility. The first requires adjusting the flux files so that the index doesn't lie in the middle of data, the second just means using a DD drive (instead of an HD drive,) to write with. The second issue would effect the SCP as well.

[luckybuck]

??? We will test this 4 weeks at the Fujiama, would be incredible! Farb has a Kryo. Even the other Kryo owners would be glad about to know. Anyway, the Kryo has problems with multiple index holes...

But even for this, solutions are visible at the horizon...

[toddtmw]

Anyone know when scp will be available? Every time I check the site they are out of stock.

[Pheonix]

With multiple index holes you mean hard sectored disks, right? The new DTC (v3.00) now supports this. If you're talking about the flippy disks that have 2 index holes (allowing index sync to be detected even when the disk is flipped,) the Kryoflux doesn't care, it just means you don't need a flippy modded drive to read the back side, you can just flip the disk.

 

As for the index issues, what it has problems with is when the track data isn't lined up with the index sync. Which can happen because the Atari (and other 8 bit systems as well,) drive didn't have an index sensor. If the index sync falls in the middle of data, then Kryoflux's method of reading from index to index (on non-hard sectored disks,) puts the write gap in the middle of data, which gets corrupted when you try to re-write the disk. The solution is to shift the index pulse of the stream to normal gap area. As far as I know, this can only be done manually at this time.

[luckybuck]

Reads plausible, we had a problem last Fuji meeting, when trying to copy an original Atari disk with at least 6 holes or even more. The Kryo at that time failed. But the disk itself wasn't protected, so we could make a regular copy. It was just the Atari DOS II disk from the Atari Word Processor box, CX404. So, I don't worry at all, we will find a solution for all problems. :-)

[ijor]

Regarding write back:

 

The SCP and the Kryoflux are essentially very similar at the hardware level. The difference is that the SCP has an open documented API interface. We can then use our own software and guide the write back process. Most important, we can choose the right spot for the write splice that is required for most Atari 8-bit disks. The Kryoflux (unlesss it changed recently) doesn't have such an open interface.

 

It is not possible to write the more advanced protections with the Happy or other similar 1050 enhancement. You need a bitwriter for some protections with many sectors per track, and also the fuzzy sector maker to be able to create weak bits. But it is certainly possible to write the software to write back the no so advanced protections, even with a "The Chip" enhanced 810.

 

It is also possible, even easier perhaps, to add The Chip or Super Archiver emulation to a SIO2PC application and the be able to write back ATX images using the own Archiver software.

 

Develop a new hardware to be able to write back all protections on an Atari drive? Well, it is possible of course. But not sure it is worth. Probably it won't be much cheaper, if at all, than a SCP or Kryoflux.

Edited June 28, 2018 by ijor