Heaven/TQA Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 http://www.mobygames.com/game/chimera/release-info it's not like the other versions might get higher review scores... http://chimera2010.com/about/#comment-312 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) But not busy enough to stop crapping on everyone else's efforts... sTeVE Edited February 17, 2015 by Jetboot Jack 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) may I point out... this is my first assembler game on Atari... cool... programming excellence and using all features the hardware can offer... http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=3399 stunning backgrounds... multicolor player sprites, incredible sound, fast game pace... photo realistic hi def gfx... Edited February 17, 2015 by Heaven/TQA 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) But not busy enough to stop crapping on everyone else's efforts... sTeVE If you get it that way, you should ask yourself, what's wrong. Edited February 17, 2015 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 http://www.mobygames.com/game/chimera/release-info it's not like the other versions might get higher review scores... http://chimera2010.com/about/#comment-312 It's just the C64 version that stands out. And now the A8 version has a equal level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 may I point out... this is my first assembler game on Atari... cool... programming excellence and using all features the hardware can offer... http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=3399 stunning backgrounds... multicolor player sprites, incredible sound, fast game pace... photo realistic hi def gfx... I like it, good first effort I say - and without irony too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Steve... Haha.... I just wanted to show... How it where when people would judge me on this game 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Exactly - you gotta start somewhere and appreciating that, the effort that takes, is important. And what you learn, the place those first faltering steps take you, that's the gold... It's easy to criticise - so many people do it It's hard to make things - so few people do it 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Wasn't chimera not a budget game? So maybe he converted the game and went down the road to finish to reach deadlines without best optimized routines? Happened to me everytime with Arsantica and Ad:6502 Yea, that was the case pretty much with the Atari version, he said he wished he had more time to put into it back then as he loved the A8. He also had a job convincing Firebird to publish the A8 version at all. Shahid has openly talked about the game design not being as good as he had wished it to be at the time and has stated on his site now that this time he will get it right with the sequel. He set about creating his own isometric game working it out himself after seeing those first impresive Ultimate games. ... Maybe Tezz did asked why it was so slow on A8... maybe there was a "wrapper" code? The original Atari version is continually drawing to a back buffer. Shahid did write his Amstrad cpc version with dirty rectangle updates and the c64 version did too which was also taking advantage of its hardware sprites. I had to do both masked pmgs and dirty rectangle updates with the new Atari version in my own way. .. Shahid programmed ALL the versions of Chimera, Z80 and 6502 platforms when he was 18 I have a great admiration for what he achieved. Edited February 17, 2015 by Tezz 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) @HeavenThanks for that link above.Here a particular snippet...."One of my earliest successes was Chimera, made and released in 1985. It did reasonably well both critically and commercially. It was an homage to (rip-off of) Knight Lore and Alien 8 and despite its obvious lack of serious gameplay, it was the first “clone” of Chris Stamper’s Filmation technique " At least he is writing truth. And, btw. No one is judging a coder by a single coded game. Booty seems to like mixed up facts. The Game is "not good" and on the Atari "Anti Fun"... someone wrote "atrocious"... And some other Words to our booty guy: If you see the C64 version working nicely, and pay money for the Atari version, and you get this crap. You HAVE the right to criticize ! Edited February 17, 2015 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Thanks Tezz, key part of his answer to myself was '...He also had a job convincing Firebird to publish the A8 version at all'. That seemed very much the attitude of so many UK publishers, i've spoken to a good few 8 Bit Coders over past few months and i always ask about any A8 work they did, likes of Simon Butler just did graphics on 1 game, cannot temember much, another (interview will be appearing in Classic Console mag) only ported 1 C64 game to A8. Also when i got chance to put questions to Andrew Hewson (before i started interviewing for myself), i asked him why Hewson had'nt supported the A8 range, even with Budget titles...answer was: 'Dunno, it never really crossed my mind to get involved. Atari seemed a step backwards to me.' Publishers simply were'nt keen on supporting A8 after it was clear big 3 were the C64/ZX Spectrum and CPC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snicklin Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 'Dunno, it never really crossed my mind ... I spoke to one of the Oliver twins (not sure which one!) at the Revival event in Wolverhampton last year. He was talking about making games. At the end I asked him why he never produced any Dizzy games for the Atari 8-bit. He looked confused and then stated that it was because of the costs being too high to put onto cartridge. I then twigged that he thought that I was on about the 2600. I said, "No, the 8-bit computer ones, with a keyboard". He didn't know that they existed. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 At the end I asked him why he never produced any Dizzy games for the Atari 8-bit. He looked confused and then stated that it was because of the costs being too high to put onto cartridge. I then twigged that he thought that I was on about the 2600. I said, "No, the 8-bit computer ones, with a keyboard". He didn't know that they existed. The Olivers didn't do their own 6502 ports though, so it wouldn't have been down to them to shift Dizzy or anything else over to the A8; it'd be interesting to talk to one of the Darlings to see why Codemasters stopped A8 support. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snicklin Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 The Olivers didn't do their own 6502 ports though, so it wouldn't have been down to them to shift Dizzy or anything else over to the A8; it'd be interesting to talk to one of the Darlings to see why Codemasters stopped A8 support. I'm trying to think what year they stopped their support.... 89 maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Yea, that was the case pretty much with the Atari version, he said he wished he had more time to put into it back then as he loved the A8. He also had a job convincing Firebird to publish the A8 version at all. It was probably only the lack of time for coding it. As it was one of rare 3d-iso games on Atari (and only a quick port) it can only be described as honest effort... Doing it on CPC with fast z80 sprite routines and using C64 sprites is much, much easier than doing iso-3d-sprite overlapping with masking on A8. Doing it with multicolored pm's turned out to be even more complex. Just figuring correct lookup tables, shifts and draw order took ages.... Tezz did awesome job on improving it. My hat is off for that gentleman... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I've never tried contacting one of the Darlings for an interview, reason being i'd seen them, like the Oliver Twins etc covered in likes of Gamestm, RetroGamer etc etc so many times, i wanted to go after the lesser known people (to start with), but i did try contacting someone who now (or at least did) worked at Codemasters, never had any reply. Might be worth a punt if i get time (but given what projects i'm juggling here and for who, it's doubtful), i might have a crack at asking them about their A8 support, only thing is, it's so long ago... I'll see what comes in from the 3 A8 coders i've questions sat with already and go from there. With that, the ST Coder interviews with ST Gamer Vol 2, the Sssssshhhh, projects i'm helping with on 2 sites etc, i'm kinda balls deep in Atari stuff already, plus hoping to get few more insights into Lost Jaguar/Lynx games as is. Biggest issue i find at moment is i've so many questions out, nothings coming back in :-(, if it all comes in at once? Gulp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 It was probably only the lack of time for coding it. As it was one of rare 3d-iso games on Atari (and only a quick port) it can only be described as honest effort... possibly... Doing it on CPC with fast z80 sprite routines and using C64 sprites is much, much easier than doing iso-3d-sprite overlapping with masking on A8. What made him not to use the PMg there? There is only that "Robot looking dressed guy" moving on the screen. So there had been no limits to use the PMg for that. Doing it with multicolored pm's turned out to be even more complex. Just figuring correct lookup tables, shifts and draw order took ages.... Tezz did awesome job on improving it. My hat is off for that gentleman... Ditto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Both Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Tested it this evening. It is a funny game. Cause I didnt know it back in the days, i cant compare it. The way it is now, i' ll probably play it. You did a really good job. What i dont understand, is the sense behind that bad talking about someones job. ... aaa, just forget it, i dont want to give him another reason to start it again. Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Tested it this evening. It is a funny game. Cause I didnt know it back in the days, i cant compare it. The way it is now, i' ll probably play it. You did a really good job. Yes, he did. What i dont understand, is the sense behind that bad talking about someones job. I wonder what's wrong with people when they get some true words as such as like "bad talking"... ... aaa, just forget it, i dont want to give him another reason to start it again. Stefan And what was it, just NOT to write it? You know what? S. Ahmad stated he had a hard task to find a distributor for the game, as you could read above. Well, I'd bet, the new version would have found easily a distributor. You might know that someone could lose a good name, distributing bad stuff. And , I tell you something more: It's particular that endless ignorance that happens around the Atari "community" back in those days and now. Particular "Chimera" is an "Anti Atari" Production. If you want to have a last Atari Fan kicking his Computer out of the Window, compare the original "Chimera" with other versions. I tell you even more, if you want: The Atari version would have done better with Character mode and hardware masking. But, for that, you had to write the game "new" for the A8. Someone who says "loving the A8", and shovelling simply code from other platforms, to show the worst version , does exactly the contrary of what he's saying. Intentionally, or not. The C64 version looks like a "much rearranged" version. Even the Graphics field isn't cutted. And, well, C64s Sprites cannot handle hardware masking in ISO 3D by themselves. At the end , the question is, if you even understand , what I'm writing about. But, a post , that possibly could help to put me in a bad corner, was worth your activity.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Both Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Sir, the actual date is 2015. No need to dig out stories from 30 years ago and argue like it's still an important thing. Even after you explained me those circumstances... i still dont understand your problem. Stefan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 i still dont understand your problem.So, if you don't understand the main point, it would be better to stay away from the discussions. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 @Emkay:I mean no offence here, but your coming across here as someone who has little 'concept' of the UK Atari 8 Bit scene back when Chimera etc were released. It had nothing to do with the quality of the coding, but the size (or lack there of...) of the A8 userbase here, compared to the C64/Zx Spectrum and Amstrad CPC. The A8 simply was NOT seen as an attractive market for publishers, to many it was viewed in same vien as the C16 and BBC Micro's etc. Chimera could of been coded by God, title screen done by Jesus etc and you'd still of had a nightmare convincing publishers there was a big enough market to invest in production of the A8 version. If it had'nt been for stock clearance deals on things like the 800XL, User Base would of been smaller still. Why do you think Ocean sat on A8 Head Over Heels for so long? I've tried getting this across a few times: Quality was'nt the concern for Firebird, fact they had such a small market to try and sell it to, was for A8 Chimera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Even if your not aware of UK A8 Scene, you honestly cannot use the concept game was too poor quality, coding wise for Firebird to risk, i mean they put out THIS on ZX Spectrum: http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.crashonline.org.uk/17/dontbuy.htm&sa=U&ei=EQTlVNfvLI7uaJCSgpgD&ved=0CCUQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNEPqd3qFIypmlcKYZMX3hPFjOU2CA Maybe some further reading up on UK scene might be of help before any more claims of ignorance are thrown around. It's fantastic to see an improved version of ANY game from back in the day, but please, lets not knock the work the guy did back then, when there was always the bloody good chance Firebird might have turned around after he'd coded it and said they were pulling out of A8 scene, full stop. Like i say, i'm NOT having a go here, just there's really no need to keep knocking A8 Chimera when perhaps you don't fully understand the 'enviroment' here in UK it was made under. Just draw a line under it, please?. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) @Emkay:I mean no offence here, but your coming across here as someone who has little 'concept' of the UK Atari 8 Bit scene back when Chimera etc were released. I don't see any offence in a discussion. So, you're welcome. It had nothing to do with the quality of the coding, but the size (or lack there of...) of the A8 userbase here, compared to the C64/Zx Spectrum and Amstrad CPC. Afterwards, it looks like that. The A8 simply was NOT seen as an attractive market for publishers, to many it was viewed in same vien as the C16 and BBC Micro's etc. In 1992 a Game on the PC had been released that showed what the main "Customers" want: A 3D looking game, fluent and playable. The "resolution" of the game had been "320 x200" m but the content was way lower. Imagine such a game in 1985! Not possible? Ofcourse it was possible. You just had to code the A8 at the given hardware specs. Imagine what had happened, if someone wrote such a game, and a distributor like "Firebird" had distributed it... Chimera could of been coded by God, title screen done by Jesus etc and you'd still of had a nightmare convincing publishers there was a big enough market to invest in production of the A8 version. Depending on the low activities of Atari, and distributors even didn't know by that, the A8 even exists, it would have been hard. That's why only some "outstanding" Game would have helped to solve the problem. If it had'nt been for stock clearance deals on things like the 800XL, User Base would of been smaller still. Why do you think Ocean sat on A8 Head Over Heels for so long? Actually, somtimes I think, it would have been better to let the A8 die , instead of telling "The A8 can do very well... "this" and showing it by "that". So much lies have been spread back in the days. But there had been so much "truth" unproved. I've tried getting this across a few times: Quality was'nt the concern for Firebird, fact they had such a small market to try and sell it to, was for A8 Chimera. Firebird was a "standard distributor". If you're not the "big dealer" you just do "small business". But you allways hope to find the "big deal". What happened to the A8 was like something you could have seen in the "Sesame Street" ... someone was searching for something he lost. He only searched where a street-lantern enlightened the street, instead of searching, where he lost it.... because it's been dark there... Edited February 18, 2015 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I'm not, nor have ever been disputing that A8 Chimera could of been handled/coded 'better' back when it was done, i'm just far more open to understanding perhaps why the time and resources were not avaiable.To 'try' and approach it in a manner your using :-).... Imagine your cooking for a dinner party, judging by the replies you've had, you know your party that night is going to recieve less guests than the party your held the week before, so your not going to lay on a full 5 course meal, 3 will do, as you've arrived home late that night and your rushed for time.People will still arrive, enjoy the meal, not go home hungry, but afterwards will say to each other, that was'nt a bad night, i wish there'd been a bit more food laid on though... And i cannot believe i've just that to describe the situation either :-) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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