Elite...was it released for NTSC NES?

[Bill Loguidice]

22 minutes ago, ColecoKing said:

I didn't even know Elite was own the NES, is it even playable?

Yes, and it's considered by many to be among the best versions.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Bill Loguidice

[ColecoKing]

Who is many?

[Bill Loguidice]

19 minutes ago, ColecoKing said:

Who is many?

Ian Bell for one: http://www.elitehomepage.org/nes/index.htm 

 

http://www.elitehomepage.org/bbc/index.htm

[ColecoKing]

Because I looked through 12 reviews and only two are positive the rest are mixed and finding those reviews isn't easy and required a couple search engines. As Elite and NES are two key words that cause trouble even with the term review added. Tons of unrelated sites and most are mixed toward the low end.

I'm sure it's good for an early console release but likely pales to the computer versions.

[CaptainBreakout]

Well, it's nice to see this was Necro-bumped not too far back.

 

I'd be interested in a cart release of this NTSC version, for the record, if the new EPROM owner ever reads this. 

 

[carlsson]

On 9/19/2020 at 7:47 PM, ColecoKing said:

I looked through 12 reviews and only two are positive the rest are mixed

Mobygames has collected 10 critic reviews specifically for the NES version:

 

Total! (Germany, February 1996): 100%

Total! (UK, November 1992): 96%

Nintendo Magazine UK (October 1992): 91%

Ultimate Nintendo: Guide to the NES library (2016): 90%

N-Force (UK, January 1993, what later became SNES Force): 89%

Megablast (Germany, 1992): 83%

Video Games (Germany, October 1992): 80%

Just Games Retro (January 2007): 80%

Play Time (Germany, December 1992): 69%

Retroage (Poland, October 2013): 50%

 

Average for the reviews 1992-1993: 84.67%

Average for the reviews 1992-1996: 86.86%

Average for the reviews 2007-2016: 73.33%

Average for the reviews 1992-2016: 82.80%

 

With the exception of Play Time and the more recent review on Retroage, it would seem that Elite on NES ranked fairly high, around 85% on average.

[marsilies]

A recent Youtube video briefly touched on Elite NTSC version, at around the 10 minute mark.

 

 

 

From the transcript:

it's still not entirely clear that this actually runs properly on the ntsc nes at all...

 

The video creator, Sharopolis, says they're going to return to the game in an upcoming video about NES enhancement chips, so it'd be interesting if they could incorporate more info about the NTSC version, confirm its existence, etc. Maybe some further footage of the NTSC version running, either in an emulator or on real hardware, as B-roll?

[Tanooki]

I'm curious why people feel Elite NTSC doesn't run on an actual console?  I've not heard of this.

[marsilies]

11 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

I'm curious why people feel Elite NTSC doesn't run on an actual console?  I've not heard of this.

It's because the only ROM publicly available, which OldSchoolRetroGamer linked to on the first page of this thread, doesn't run right on an actual NTSC console. Even in an emulator, you need to tweak the settings to add more VBlank lines.

http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/elite/nes/

 

Attached is what I get in RetroArch FCEU running that ROM.

 

[Tanooki]

So it's a buggy game I guess?  I haven't seen that website probably in 20 years but I remember it.

[marsilies]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

So it's a buggy game I guess?  I haven't seen that website probably in 20 years but I remember it.

Except MrMark0673 claims to have a ROM dumped from some EPROMs they owned a while ago that runs correctly on real hardware:

On 9/9/2020 at 10:19 PM, MrMark0673 said:

Necro.  Out of the blue someone hit me up about this proto I owned years back, so I figured I'd do a quick google and see if people were looking for it.
 

Video taken many years back of the proto that I owned running on the NES (dumped and through a PowerPak). 

They've declined to share the ROM publicly, since they promised the people they sold the EPROMs to that they wouldn't, but sharing additional footage should be possible. 

 

 

[Lauren Tyler]

I had read that the game was only released in PAL format because the PAL NES runs at 50 FPS, which frees up just enough of the NES's capabilities to run the game properly.

[marsilies]

8 hours ago, Lauren Tyler said:

I had read that the game was only released in PAL format because the PAL NES runs at 50 FPS, which frees up just enough of the NES's capabilities to run the game properly.

It was released in PAL because the developers were in the UK and targeted for that market first.

 

However, developing for PAL NES did offer some advantages in terms of compute time due to a longer Vblank period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3wkECM9hVE&lc=UgxB127RONOjSzfdw214AaABAg
Dwedit

Elite would take a lot of forced blanking time to get it running on NTSC.  With no additional forced blanking, the draw time is limited to around 192 bytes.  Meanwhile, the PAL NES can draw at least a whopping 800 bytes during vblank time alone without any tricks.  With the scanlines that Elite doesn't draw on being used as Forced Blanking Time, PAL Elite could draw over 1024 bytes of graphics updates in a single frame.

So in order to transfer 3/4 as much graphics data, NTSC would need to hide about 28 additional scanlines vs the PAL version.  So that would take away the very top of combat, and require a different layout for the status bar.

There's some evidence that the NTSC version of Elite actually shows less scanlines. If you watch the video MrMark0673 posted, the top border isn't at the top of the screen, but a bit low, suggesting some lines are missing. It may not be 28 lines though, as maybe Elite doesn't fully use all the extra VBlank lines in the PAL console. Also, each line the NTSC version doesn't draw is less Vblank time needed to compute the smaller image, so it could be something like removing one draw line reduced the amount of Vblank time needed by half a line or so. 

 

This is a good video explaining HBlank and VBlank timing and how it impacts computing and lag. It's about the SNES, but I believe the basic principles apply to the NES as well:

 

To get "extra Vblank" lines on NTSC NES, a programmer can turn on screen drawing "late", causing black lines at the top of the screen that aren't drawn. This was done for some sections of the NTSC port of Battletoads:

http://bugs.cpprograms.net/f10/t6065.xhtml

 

You can see it in playthroughs of Battletoads, like the snake battle, at the 18:00 mark in this video, where the status bar drops down, leaving more black lines on the top of the screen.

 

 

This is in contrast to the PAL version, where the status bar stays firmly at the top throughout the entire game, like in this video:

 

For Battletoads, it looks like Rare was able to optimize/port their code so that some sections played fine without needing the longer VBlank time, but used a longer VBlank period where needed. 

 

For Elite, I'm guessing the game consistently needs a longer Vblank, so the screen is consistently shorter on the NTSC version. 

[CaptainBreakout]

Any hope for an NTSC version of this someday?

[marsilies]

5 hours ago, CaptainBreakout said:

Any hope for an NTSC version of this someday?

That's at least partly up to MrMark0673 and whomever they sold the EPROMs to. I don't know much about the physical prototype collectors market, but apparently whomever owns the physical item reserves the right to release a ROM file publicly, presumably because doing so significantly devalues the physical item. 

 

It's possible there's another functional prototype out there, but nobody's mentioned it online.

 

Another possibility would be the original developers releasing a copy, but considering the original co-author Ian Bell has had the same broken NTSC ROM for download on his site since 2004, he may not have any better copy himself.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040705234536/http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/elite/nes/

 

Alternatively, someone could ROM hack Ian Bell's ROM to work properly on actual hardware, although there's probably not a lot of incentive when we know there's already a functional version that could, in theory, be released at any moment, negating all the work on such a hack. 

[Tanooki]

Legally speaking they don't.  What they're all ultimately doing on the large is grossly illegal IP theft, fraud, and trafficking illicit goods.  Without a clear timeline of ownership showing they didn't just get the board and oops the gamewas on it, but they bought the actual game itself from the actual owner (the original business, or whoever got it on a buyout or going defunct) it's all crooked warezing.

 

The only one off hand I know that actually does do this is Eli aka Piko, owner of Piko Interactive.  He will find an old prototype, trace the heritage if needed and either (a) buy the entire property IP and all outright or (b) license it for a period or indefinitely from the original owner to share in the profits.

 

The fact they don't want to release such a thing is because it is illegal to own to the letter of the law, and more so likely because they're just greedy as hell and think not releasing it will make their black market prototype more profitable in value to a potential future black market buyer at a profit.  It's crap though, just because a ROM is dumped doesn't mean someone can fake a 1:1 of the thing and peddle it around to where it would diminish the value of the original.  It's just black market greed and preservation.

 

MrMark never actually owned the game or its rights, he bought the board and owned the hardware, that's all.  He sold an illegal game and a legit piece of hardware to someone else, and that persons terms between the two said no distribution.

[marsilies]

4 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Legally speaking they don't...

Well, I don't want to get into the weeds with legality and ethics, since one doesn't necessarily mean the other, and one's view of right and wrong can vary between person and situation. I didn't mean "right" in a legal sense though in my previous post, just what was agreed upon for the purchase, as may be typical in the prototype trading market. 

 

However, MrMark0673 has dumped and released at least 9 other ROMs, it looks like from carts/chips they presently own:

https://hiddenpalace.org/MrMark0673

 

The ROM will probably eventually get publicly posted, if not via this copy, then maybe some other prototype copy roaming around. However, even if the ROM doesn't get posted, it'd be good to get other info about this version, such as playback pics, vids, etc. 

[Tanooki]

On 10/5/2021 at 10:08 PM, marsilies said:

Well, I don't want to get into the weeds with legality and ethics, since one doesn't necessarily mean the other, and one's view of right and wrong can vary between person and situation. I didn't mean "right" in a legal sense though in my previous post, just what was agreed upon for the purchase, as may be typical in the prototype trading market. 

 

However, MrMark0673 has dumped and released at least 9 other ROMs, it looks like from carts/chips they presently own:

https://hiddenpalace.org/MrMark0673

 

The ROM will probably eventually get publicly posted, if not via this copy, then maybe some other prototype copy roaming around. However, even if the ROM doesn't get posted, it'd be good to get other info about this version, such as playback pics, vids, etc. 

Oh I'm familiar with what he's done, repeatedly, as it was largely put out through NintendoAge which I was a member of, they did a ROM dump, after doing a substantial cost for a limited numbered CIB release of the games usually with a few other added cheap items (like a retail collectors box) thrown in too.  The argument happened then too, usually at that point morality wasn't as high in those same groups as they are now, so it was encouraged, allowed, and sometimes people who would point out the legality would get shouted down more than agreed with because it was known and conveniently ignored.  The very early days of Piko, I helped out Eli with his very first contact dealings with Wisdom Tree to get some of those releases he did under license as his english wasn't then what it is now.  I get the complexities of this stuff from that and formerly working in games too at a low level, media too, so it gets my annoyance up when people peddle shit they don't own, far more so if they've got it and then keep it under lock and key for profit reasons alone.  It's not right either way, but at least like with Frank Cifaldi and his group, such as when Sim City got dropped publicly, it was preserved and publicly shared as a museum piece with the history documented, which is about as right a way as you can doing it, short of actually owning it.

[marsilies]

Well, if you want to get into the weeds....

 

The distribution of physical prototypes isn't going to be copyright infringement, since that's about the production of new copies, not about an existing copy transferring hands. It's maybe stolen property, but that depends on whether the source wasn't just disposing of it, let an employee take it home, etc. Even then, it may be more considered civil conversion instead of theft, and importantly, most companies aren't really seeking out and trying to get these prototypes back. Bankruptcies and clearance sales can make previously proprietary items available to the public. For example, there's the Nintendo Playstation, which was acquired at a bankruptcy auction. 

 

Where the Elite EPROMs came from is an interesting thought experiment. The fact that they're loose EPROMs suggests that maybe the NTSC ROM was sent as a download to a potential US publisher, that flashed it to EPROM for testing, then shelved the EPROMs when they opted to pass on the game, and then possibly even earmarked them for disposal. Maybe an employee took them home instead, maybe someone fished them out of the garbage. But since, in terms of property law, possession is like nine tenths of it, whomever is in physical possession of it is as good an owner as anyone else at this stage. 

 

And US copyright law does allow the creation of backup copies of software, as long as you never transferred the original copy to someone else. So there's a certain logic to the idea that whomever owns the physical EPROMs also has some level of rights to the ROM backup file. And there's just standing by the promises of whatever conditions of sale. If MrMark0673 promised they weren't going to publicly release the ROM to whomever they sold the EPROMs to, there's a certain honor to abiding to that agreement. 

 

In terms of copyright infringement, and distributing the ROM, it's technically copyright infringement, but that's civil and needs the alleged victim to actually act on it. Considering one of the co-authors of Elite has had what he thought was a functional NTSC ROM of the game up on his personal website for well over a decade, I don't think even the creators of the game would object to another prototype ROM being distributed. One could maybe formally ask Ian Bell before distributing, or even offer it to him to replace his other ROM on his website. 

 

Note that the Sim City NES ROM was only distributed because they paid an owner of a cart for the ROM.

https://gamehistory.org/simcity/

In 2017, two playable prototype cartridges of the NES version of SimCity surfaced, when their owner brought them into a used game shop in the Seattle area...  Ultimately, one of the cartridges was sold to a private collector, while the other remained with its original owner. And thanks to a financial contribution from one of our own board members, Steve Lin, we were able to take home a digital copy of the game to examine.

[Tanooki]

I read the Sim City thing I've got it here.  I'm at times kind of surprised that considering the attitude problems both Nintendo and EA have about their IP and stolen goods, they didn't get riled up over SimCity.  It's totally a civil matter, it's nothing to go to jail over if you felt I was insinuating that all.  It seems like a crime in trafficking stolen goods, but ultimately I'd imagine it more a civil matter where the fraudulent owner of ill gotten goods (in this case, somehow leaked from NOA it appears, much like Earthbound) could end up getting financially wrecked if either company wanted to take a shot at it.  They'd have little case with Sim City now given its been online like what 3 years and never raised a squawk about it.

[Crazy Climber]

I always figured I would go with the following formula if I ever acquired an undumped proto...

 

 - Purchase prototype (lets say it costs $1,000 yeah, I realize this is probably pretty low for NES these days lol)

 - Produce/Sell whatever amount of fancy collector reproductions that allow me to recoup my investment (pre-order of course)

 - After the repro's all (or most) sell dump the ROM (of course I'd keep a few for trades/etc)

 - Whatever I sell the dumped proto for afterwards would give me a few bucks for my time

   (lets face it, you aren't getting anywhere close to the same price after it's been dumped unless it's zelda or something)

 - In the end if I broke even I'd be happy...I'd even be okay with losing a little...just a little though haha

 

I think MrMark did something kind of like this although it was probably a little more geared towards profits, IIRC he bought some pretty extravagant lots of proto's. Couldn't have been "cheap" I also don't think I remember him selling the original proto's until he started a home flipping company or something (memory is fuzzy but I remember something on NA years back)

 

Somewhere along the line video games in general just completely changed and now everything is just cut throat/how many dollars can I get/etc.. it's not just protos, it's everything...Everyone is a reseller now lol

 

I bet there are proto's we've never even heard of sitting in someones safe..

 

 

 

 

[marsilies]

On 10/28/2021 at 1:51 PM, Crazy Climber said:

I always figured I would go with the following formula if I ever acquired an undumped proto...

 

 - Purchase prototype (lets say it costs $1,000 yeah, I realize this is probably pretty low for NES these days lol)

 - Produce/Sell whatever amount of fancy collector reproductions that allow me to recoup my investment (pre-order of course)

This second step would be just outright illegal as copyright infringement, and of the type that would likely get someone looking to sue you. The first sale doctrine likely means you have the right to buy and sell the physical prototype, and copyright law allows for making a personal backup copy of software, provided you still own the original, but producing and distributing new copies is straight up copyright infringement. In the case of posting ROMs online for free, the risk of getting sued is fairly minimal, but trying to profit via the sale of copies is a big no-no.

 

Also, unless it's a prototype of a previously unseen, unreleased game, I don't think there'd be much appeal to collectors for a repro cart. Even something like the NTSC Elite probably isn't too appealing to collectors as a repro, since the PAL ROM exists. The main appeal in physically owning a prototype is the fact that they're so unique and rare, a repro won't be that. Furthermore, selling a limited edition repro, and then later releasing the ROM online for free, would likely piss off anyone that actually bought a repro, since they could've gotten the same by just waiting for the ROM and using an Everdrive.

 

I just don't see your plan actually working out. 

On 10/28/2021 at 1:51 PM, Crazy Climber said:

 I bet there are proto's we've never even heard of sitting in someones safe..

I would think part of the appeal of owning a prototype would be bragging rights. 

[jhd]

On 10/31/2021 at 12:00 PM, marsilies said:

This second step would be just outright illegal as copyright infringement, and of the type that would likely get someone looking to sue you. The first sale doctrine likely means you have the right to buy and sell the physical prototype, and copyright law allows for making a personal backup copy of software, provided you still own the original, but producing and distributing new copies is straight up copyright infringement. In the case of posting ROMs online for free, the risk of getting sued is fairly minimal, but trying to profit via the sale of copies is a big no-no.

 

Who currently owns the rights to Elite? Where (i.e. in what country) are they physically located?

 

Your analysis of copyright law is correct for the United States, but not everyone lives there (or is subject to American laws).  This is important. 

 

If someone living in, say, Uruguay, decided to violate the copyright, the American copyright owner would either have to bring a lawsuit in that jurisdiction (under a completely different legal regime and language) or else get a judgement in an American court and then attempt to enforce it in Uruguay. (I am assuming for purposes of argument that the hypothetical copyright infringer has no seize-able assets under American jurisdiction.) Either way, the cost and difficulty is sufficient that the copyright owner may not choose to press the issue even though a claim would be successful. The legal term is having "a right without a remedy".  In practice, it would cost far more to bring the action than the plaintiff could ever hope to recover in damages.  

[marsilies]

On 11/16/2021 at 8:04 AM, jhd said:

 

Who currently owns the rights to Elite? Where (i.e. in what country) are they physically located?

I'd imagine David Braben/Frontier Developments, considering they made Elite: Dangerous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Braben

 

On 11/16/2021 at 8:04 AM, jhd said:

If someone living in, say, Uruguay, decided to violate the copyright..

I doubt Crazy Climber lives in Uraguay.

 

I was just pointing out it'd be illegal, if you want to take the risk and do it anyway that's up to you. But trying to profit by making and selling copies of someone else's work is the one way that's most likely to spur legal action. 

[Sinyavin]

PAL games won't run on NTSC at all? It is possible to run NTSC games on PAL. NTSC runs at 60 Hz, PAL at 50 Hz, but PAL games have slightly higher screen resolution (256x224 NTSC and 256 x 240 PAL). PAL screen has lower frequency, so NTSC games works slower on PAL.