Earthworm Jim on Jaguar:question was asked, answer was given :-)

[sh3-rg]

If i find a clip of a Golf Clap, i'll be sure to link to it...

 

Espically if there's anything Atari related in the background, maybe someone wearing a T-Shirt with the logo on it, without understanding it's importance (the symbol) that is...

 

Otherwise....

 

Whatever......man.

Oh come on, that was funny, you have to admit

 

Haven't paid much attention to all the above tbh. I know BMX well and trust every word he says, but from skimming through that's not the point CJ was making I don't think. A conversation isn't something quantifiable, especially when you can't recall who the individual was, what they did exactly and even if they were who they purported to be if it's not documented sharpish the details can get lost and confused. Which is pretty much your own point of view afaict hearing the half-remembered events devs recall in your interviews, things that conflict with things they and others said in the past.

 

It's nice to hear these things, it's much better to find contemporary documentary evidence.

[Lost Dragon]

But like i said, it was simply passed onto GTW/Unseen64 in form it was presented, claim by a poster on here, thus hope was someone might see it, it jogs something in the memory and they can add more to it.It was never passed off as documented proof, which is what things like claims in magazines that Quake was 30% complete on Jaguar were (then 'backed up' by claims of a Carmac interview no-one kept or can recal exactly where or when it was done) or Tomb Raider started on Jaguar CD and here's screens from EDGE supplement etc as proof and BMX has'nt simply inserted a high profile coder name to add credibility to his recollection, there's no, well, i spoke to Jeff Minter and he said...type nonsense is there?.

 

As i said before, all it is is a possible avenue of investigation and it sits with the shiver of info Dave Perry was able to share.Interplay are the ones to contact and efforts have been made, but so far, nothing back.

 

BMX has never as far as i'm aware fabricated anything for the sake of 'attention'

[sh3-rg]

BMX has never as far as i'm aware fabricated anything for the sake of 'attention'

Who stated or even implied that he did?

 

That kind of action, when it comes to the Jaguar, is the speciality of someone a little closer to these shores than Deutschland. And I think we all know who I mean

 

The point was it's fine to take evidence direct from a source, but introduce a 3rd party and it's no longer evidence, it's a lead to direct you in other avenues at best. And if investigation and seeking the truth is your desire, you can take what Bjorn said and make further enquiries based upon it. Seems like a good plan of action and a great lead.

[Lost Dragon]

No-one and it's because of his excellent record as it were in this regard, i felt comfortable passing on his post to Unseen64/GTW, where as had it been closer to these shores, i'd of looked into it, but not mentioned it to either site unless something came up.Think you know what i'm saying here........ :-)

 

 

Going around in circles, but long and short of it is this:My post about the tiny bit of info Dave Perry passed on was enough to jog BMX's memory, i'd no reason to think he'd created a statement just to get in on the act as it were, passed it on in it's original form to the 2 Lost Game sites and said this has come to light, might be potential new avenue, will report back if anything more comes of it, until then people can judge for themselves...then things appear to have gotten muddled, CJ appeared to think i'd taken BMX's post as hard fact, which simply is'nt the way i 'work'.

 

Th Klax joke? wasted on me, never rated the game on Lynx or C64, but then that's me.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[bmx]

@sh3-rg: Thanks for your words. Appreciated. And of course my memory of this conversation can only be a hint for further investigations on this topic.

 

@Lost Dragon: I remember who the source is. He is working for a AAA company related to the video gaming industry at the moment. But I'm not certain if he is ok with quoting him on that in public.

Btw. If I get it right, you are from UK. Just come to visit the next ejagfest this fall, after this, you will know me and some other forum members in person.

[Lost Dragon]

Hello BMX :-)

Trust me, i've had conversations with various industry contacts these past few months who've given me some fantastic insights, advice etc, but asked not to be named or the info not to be passed on and reasons why and i fully respect their wishes.

When i started out 'researching' as it were, people said my grammar etc was awful, i should'nt go on what Press said, so i took (most) of the feedback onboard, contacted all/sundary i could, people then 'suggested' i needed more sources, my answers were 1)I was lucky to get info i was from who i did (and i've always been 100% honest about who i've contacted regarding what and what responses if any, were given, on my time on here, likes of Jeremy Heath Smith, Minter, Carmac, Ex-Probe/Jag CD Primal Rage coders etc approached, all dead ends).

People still rip into me for using a PS£ to log-in on here, well yeah what ever, explained till i'm blue in the face my laptop i only use for BT speed tests when net goes down, I.E on 360 won't let me log in....

[Lost Dragon]

(Cont) despite it being locked behind a paid-for wall via XB Live.Plus, i seriousily cannot speed type on my iPad.Still if it generates much piss taking, so be it, like i've said before IF i did this stuff for money, then of course i'd get a decent PC, but it's nothing more than done to help other sites/publications, simple fact is, i choose to share the information with Atari Age Community, i don't feel duty bound or no-one else wants it.

 

The 'He has'nt even got a PC!!' claim was doing the rounds long before i joined here, gotten real stale of late.

 

Funny how the NO PC has'nt stopped me getting the answers though....hmmnn.

 

Retro Events? been invited to more than i care to recal over the years, won't be attending the GTW stand, sadly any others this year in UK or Germany (?) stopped off in Germany for a few hours, few years back after passing through, somewhere i'd always love to spend some quality time in mind.

 

Anywho, back on topic, i was/am grateful to your posts :-)

[bmx]

I got some more info from my source.

 

Interview: Earthworm Jim was planned for the Atari Jaguar

http://ejagfest.de/interview-earthworm-jim-was-planned-for-the-atari-jaguar/?lang=en#more-1992

[PeterG]

Cool. Thanks Björn. EJ and then Turrican...too bad... But a nice bit of info.

[Gunstar]

This needs to be said:

 

Yes i am grateful to BMX in coming forward as others have done with information he has, it gives us another lead to follow up, no matter how small it might be.

 

If it's a dead end, so be it, it won't be the 1st will it? i wasted time chasing up claims of Minter having worked on Ultra Star Raiders on Lynx, a supposed Ninja Sega Saturn coder who despite EDGE's claims, had never touched the bloody thing, so had to re-write entire interview, numerous hours looking into screens of Tomb Raider Edge knew were false and besides, i've still yet to see any proof of claims made that Carmack ever spoke of Quake running on Jaguar, yet there are plenty who say they can remember it, ok fine..just suggest where i might start looking for it?

 

We tend to take the honest route where possible on Unseen64/GTW present info as it's given, let folks make their own minds up.BMX has given us another avenue, glimmer of hope and there's no reason not to thank him for it.

I remember reading the Carmack interview, and I thought it was either from Atari Explorer online/ Jaguar Explorer online, or the old CAIN news letter online (Central Atari Information Network).But my foggy memory of the interview was mostly about DOOM on the Jag and the interviewer ask Carmack something along the lines of "can Quake be done on the Jaguar and are you going to do Quake on the Jaguar" and Carmacks response was something like "I think the Jaguar is just powerful enough to handle quake, though it may take a lot of optimization and we are talking with Atari about that prospect" or something along those lines, it was never a definitive "YES" anyway from what I recall...I'll start looking into it.

 

 

Ok, I did a search, I found it at Atari Archives. I'm not sure if Atari Archives even has all the issues yet, will keep looking into it and also the old explorer online stuff which I think may be at Atari Archives too...

 

Ok, this link is to the index of what appears to be all the CAIN issues, at least at Atari Archives: http://www.atariarchives.org/cfn/05/12/index.php#10

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gunstar

[sd32]

Cool. Thanks Björn. EJ and then Turrican...too bad... But a nice bit of info.

Earthworm Jim on the Jaguar... with Raymans quality graphics... that would have been amazing!. Although looking at other 16-bit ports, they wouldnt have improved it much over the original.

 

Turrican with the graphical quality of Native...that would have been amazing too. Oh but look, other Amiga ports to the Jaguar like Soccer Kid and Zool 2 look almost identical to the originals...darn it!

[Gunstar]

I remember reading the Carmack interview, and I thought it was either from Atari Explorer online/ Jaguar Explorer online, or the old CAIN news letter online (Central Atari Information Network).But my foggy memory of the interview was mostly about DOOM on the Jag and the interviewer ask Carmack something along the lines of "can Quake be done on the Jaguar and are you going to do Quake on the Jaguar" and Carmacks response was something like "I think the Jaguar is just powerful enough to handle quake, though it may take a lot of optimization and we are talking with Atari about that prospect" or something along those lines, it was never a definitive "YES" anyway from what I recall...I'll start looking into it.

 

 

Ok, I did a search, I found it at Atari Archives. I'm not sure if Atari Archives even has all the issues yet, will keep looking into it and also the old explorer online stuff which I think may be at Atari Archives too...

 

Ok, this link is to the index of what appears to be all the CAIN issues, at least at Atari Archives: http://www.atariarchives.org/cfn/05/12/index.php#10

Well, i browsed through all the issues of the CAIN newsletter that Atari Archives has, and no Carmack interview, though a lot of interesting stuff...so if that's all the issues of CAIN that existed, the interview wasn't in CAIN, so maybe Atari/Jaguar Explorer Online is where I read it, or, maybe not. I clearly remember reading an interview of Carmack, stating something like i said above, but if I can't find it, in the end, I really think it may not be that big of a deal if it's never found if my memory was anywhere near correct basically Carmack just said he "thought" the jaguar could handle it based on the experiences with programming the Jag...So I don't recall anything definite about the jag absolutely can do Quake from Carmack. But I will keep looking since I really remember something and want to help in proving or disproving this "rumor" since I know I was one of those in the past who said he remembered Carmack speaking about Jag Quake...

 

I did find some sources of Atari/Jag Explorer online, here is one: http://www.atarihq.com/jeo/

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gunstar

[Lost Dragon]

Outstanding.Cheers BMX.

 

Never been a huge EWJ fan myself, but great to clear up the question over what happened to it and i'd of loved to have seen Turrican on the Jaguar.

 

Both would probably of been tarted up 16 Bit ports, as looking back at Mega CD EWJ, it had an extra level (which folks say was'nt all that) and little else to boast of, so would'nt of expected any boats to be pushed out on Jaguar version.

 

As for Carmac?.I've put up all the mag scans and quotes from interviews he's done i've read where he talks about Jaguar, Quake never mentioned in any of them, but improved Doom code is.

 

I did email him, request was denied, looked through a stack of his collected interviews downloaded from the net, still found nothing myself.

 

I'd welcome others findings though, i've just stopped searching myself.

[bmx]

I'm glad you like it.

[Gunstar]

Outstanding.Cheers BMX.

 

Never been a huge EWJ fan myself, but great to clear up the question over what happened to it and i'd of loved to have seen Turrican on the Jaguar.

 

Both would probably of been tarted up 16 Bit ports, as looking back at Mega CD EWJ, it had an extra level (which folks say was'nt all that) and little else to boast of, so would'nt of expected any boats to be pushed out on Jaguar version.

 

As for Carmac?.I've put up all the mag scans and quotes from interviews he's done i've read where he talks about Jaguar, Quake never mentioned in any of them, but improved Doom code is.

 

I did email him, request was denied, looked through a stack of his collected interviews downloaded from the net, still found nothing myself.

 

I'd welcome others findings though, i've just stopped searching myself.

Well, if you've looked through all the Atari Explorer Online articles then I guess I never read the Carmack Quake tidbit there, so I've no idea where I read it then, but I am sure I did read it. Whether it was just made up BS by the writer I don't know, and even so, from what I remember Carmack just said he "thought" the Jag could handle it. So since no work was ever done for Quake Jag as far as anyone knows anyway, it's really a moot point.

 

I'm sure that if ID had done a Jag version it would not have been a direct port anyway, and would have had to have been scaled back graphically. But to say it's impossible is also BS because it could have been scaled back to fit the Jaguar if needed. sort of like Doom on the SNES for example. Sure, back in '94/95 I believed the hype from Atari and thought the Jag was more powerful than it is (I still think the chip set was crippled due to local and main memory constraints/bugs) and that it was closer to the Saturn and PSX in 3D, But I've accepted in later years that it's not, I just hate it when people don't give it the power credit it does deserve and say it's weaker than it really is. I still think it's true power, as the system is in reality, was never fully tapped, even if it still fell short of the later next gen consoles in 3D power. Hell, it was released a full 2 years earlier. Technology moves on.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gunstar

[Bill Loguidice]

Well, if you've looked through all the Atari Explorer Online articles then I guess I never read the Carmack Quake tidbit there, so I've no idea where I read it then, but I am sure I did read it. Whether it was just made up BS by the writer I don't know, and even so, from what I remember Carmack just said he "thought" the Jag could handle it. So since no work was ever done for Quake Jag as far as anyone knows anyway, it's really a moot point.

 

I'm sure that if ID had done a Jag version it would not have been a direct port anyway, and would have had to have been scaled back graphically. But to say it's impossible is also BS because it could have been scaled back to fit the Jaguar if needed. sort of like Doom on the SNES for example. Sure, back in '94/95 I believed the hype from Atari and thought the Jag was more powerful than it is (I still think the chip set was crippled due to local and main memory constraints/bugs) and that it was closer to the Saturn and PSX in 3D, But I've accepted in later years that it's not, I just hate it when people don't give it the power credit it does deserve and say it's weaker than it really is. I still think it's true power, as the system is in reality, was never fully tapped, even if it still fell short of the later next gen consoles in 3D power. Hell, it was released a full 2 years earlier. Technology moves on.

 

The way I look at it is from the perspective of the systems that DID get Quake. They were all either (relatively for the time) high memory/high processor computer versions (DOS, Linux, Mac/Amiga PPC) or 3D-centric consoles (Saturn, N64, and an unreleased PS1 version), with the latter ports already being considered somewhat compromised and/or done in a different type of engine (the Saturn version). Considering the only FPS's we got on the Jaguar featured no 3D geometry and the only one that can arguably be considered perfectly optimized was Wolfenstein 3D, I'd say logically that it's a stretch to say that the Jaguar could pull the game off, even in a severely compromised manner (i.e., it wouldn't be Quake in the end). Quake is not Doom, and even Doom had technical limitations on the Jaguar (even safely assuming additional optimizations could have been made (I believe they could), an optimized Doom engine would probably still push up against the limitations of the platform, let alone attempting a next generation engine like Quake).

 

In any case, I've said it before and will say it here again. Instead of attempting to create another engine for a Quake or Quake-like that may or may not have been possible, and shoehorning yet another game onto the Jaguar that it really shouldn't have bothered with, it's a shame that more Wolfenstein- or Doom-engine games couldn't have appeared on the Jaguar. It's not like there was a shortage of them to port over, and the engines were already in place. That to me remains the biggest mystery of a seemingly obvious strategy that Atari chose not to pursue.

 

Considering the Genesis was able to get a scaled down Duke Nukem 3D, and considering that too was a breakthrough hit in that era, that would have been something more in the Jaguar's wheelhouse I would think. Of course, as with Quake, the original (non-port) 1996 release of Duke Nukem 3D doesn't really fit into the Jaguar's short window of commercial viability, which was probably another significant issue working against the Jaguar and these types of games.

[Lost Dragon]

I looked at: UK Press interviews with Carmack (Arcade,Edge PC Zone, PC Gamer, RG Magazine etc etc) as well as online articles like AEO/JEO, i downloaded over 25 interviews with him from likes of E3, CES, Quakecon events, also those he did for 1UP, Gamasutra, Gamespy, Slash dot, boot+Blues news etc.

 

Could'nt find a thing.It's not mentioned in the Masters Of Doom Book either.

 

The I.D interview in STF just talked of Doom 2 being converted IF Wolfie+Doom sold well enough on Jaguar...

 

I 'spoke' to Romero and Taylor, we know their thoughts on Jaguar just handling Doom let alone Quake, Mike Fulton threw in his personal viewpoint etc etc.

 

So even if Carmack had attempted a very scaled down conversion, i'm of the thinking it's not something i'd of wanted to buy, nor would it of done the platform any favours, just showcased just how quickly technology had moved on by time Quake hit.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[Lost Dragon]

@Bill:I'm totally with you on this:

 

'In any case, I've said it before and will say it here again. Instead of attempting to create another engine for a Quake or Quake-like that may or may not have been possible, and shoehorning yet another game onto the Jaguar that it really shouldn't have bothered with, it's a shame that more Wolfenstein- or Doom-engine games couldn't have appeared on the Jaguar. It's not like there was a shortage of them to port over, and the engines were already in place. That to me remains the biggest mystery of a seemingly obvious strategy that Atari chose not to pursue.'

 

 

There were plenty of games to convert which would of been ideally suited to Jaguar and Atari really should of done more to get things like AVP 2 in motion, rather than try and secure conversions of games the Jaguar hardware was never ideally suited for, just to vainly be seen as a platform that could compete with Saturn/PS1, just at a lower price point.

[Gunstar]

I'm with you guys too, in that the JagDoom engine and others should have been utilized more, with stuff like Hexen and Heretic, Strife, etc. too, and maybe it would have been had Atari lasted longer. They could have even done further optimization of the JagDoom engine, which Carmack did say could have been done, as well as mentioning a better version if they had programmed it from the ground up, tailored for the Jag's hardware.

 

But I still don't think that a scaled back Quake on the Jag would mean a game nothing like Quake. I think we all can agree that the Jag's weakest point in doing true 3D is texture mapping, and I believe that a Quake engine that did little or no textures, and just had flat-shaded and/or garuad shaded polygon engine could have been done that kept the original game play fully intact. No, it wouldn't be nearly as pretty (although looking back twenty years later, I personally think the Jag's garaud shaded graphics have held up better over time than much of the Saturn and PSX chunky textures do), but I'd still enjoy a 3D shooter on the Jag with little or no textures. We would have seen some stuff like this if the VR helmet had made it, with games like Zone Hunter and Dactyl Nightmare. The Jag can do decent 3D without textures if good coders are at the helm.

 

But I agree that it wouldn't have done the Jag any favors up against the newer 32-bit systems as far as showcasing the Jag on equal terms or for sales, but I think, people that already owned Jags would have enjoyed some true 3D shooters and other genres without total texturing. I know I would. I still love the Iron Soldier games, Battlemorph, I-war and others, and I loved them then too, even without being highly or totally textured. I still think Checker Flag LOOKS really cool, as long as you are just looking at screen shots, of course the Jag can do much better flat-shaded textures than CF, Missile Command 3D looks and plays good, and it has little texturing to it. The first Iron Soldier too.

 

I would hazard a guess though, that IF Atari had allowed more games to be done without being FULLY textured, that in the end they would have gotten better press IF the games were high-quality and fast, than they ended up getting with the fully textured games that had much poorer frame-rates than the competition. Because in the end it does come down to game-play. Either way, the Jag would have been and were a target for the biased rags that were paid to discredit the Jag. But a few publications that were honest would have been able to praise the Jag more over quality game play and smoother frame-rates.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gunstar

[Lost Dragon]

It just narks me that Atari were seeming so slow getting games like AVP 2, Battlewheels etc etc underway, in terms of securing developers (Beyond Games supposed to have stopped what little work was started on Jaguar Battlewheels to start on AVP 2, so far i've been unable to confirm this though) and supporting them.

 

I'd of loved to have seen the support given so developers could fund and finish things like the above,plus Legions Of The Undead, Dactyl Joust etc, along with Freelancer and Black Ice/White Noise on Jaguar CD....

 

That way the Jaguar would of had (hopefully) far more 'Killer-Apps' to call it's own, rather than some of the titles we did see.

 

Rather than wasting time and resources trying to secure chaff like Creature Shock, invest in your own hardware and build a strong portfolio of must have titles.

[sd32]

I agree that doing a FPS game that caters to the Jaguar strengths is the ideal thing to do. The reason Quake gets mentioned so much, as a dream title for the Jaguar, is because it is considered a benchmark in FPS. I am no coder, and dont know anything about it, but judging from the Jags library of games, Quake seems to be out the the Jaguars league, i think most can agree with that. Even more so BITD, with tight budgets and schedules. But thats were homebrew comes in, and it should not be underestimated.

 

For years i read that the Sega Genesis could never do Wolfenstein 3D, CPU not fast enough, not enough RAM, VDP not really catered for this sort of engine, etc. The SNES port, from a technical point of view, was only decent, and that was because ID themselves programed it, and the mode7 was actually helpful in this case (it wasnt the W3D engine anynmore, i guess). Yet, nowdays thanks to the homebrewer gasega68k, we have a port of Wolfenstein 3D on the Genesis, that surpasses the SNES version, and its really good compared with the original. gasega68k is even doing a mode7 type engine for the Genny, and its really promising. He says his Wolf3D engine can pull off a FPS with curved walls and elevators, similar to Doom! But not Doom, of course, hehe.

Staying with the Genesis, BITD, few developers could come up with a sound engine that could play more that one PCM channel in decent quality. Usually PCM sounded terrible. Yet now, thanks to homebrewer Steff, we have an engine that plays 5 FM channels, the 4 PSG channels, plus 4 PCM channels in good quality. His Street Fighter 2 SCE hack sounds awesome. Yet for decades, we tought such an engine wasnt posible on the Genesis. And this was the Genesis, a successful console that even the best developing houses in the world made big budget games for almost 10 years. We tought we had seen all it could do.

 

And lets not forget about the WIP port of not Quake 1, but Quake 2 for the Falcon, a system thats inferior to the Jaguar.

 

So, BITD, i dont think there was a chance in hell, that the Jaguar could have pulled off Quake at all, with the terrible enviroment that Jag coders had to deal with. But nowdays...who knows, there might be a talented coder out there, with the passion to pull off something decent. Like on Sega Saturn, i doubt it would be the Quake engine though, it would have to be one exclusively written for the Jag, i guess.

 

Anyways, i dont even like Quake that much, i prefer Duke Nukem 3D myself .

[Bill Loguidice]

So, BITD, i dont think there was a chance in hell, that the Jaguar could have pulled off Quake at all, with the terrible enviroment that Jag coders had to deal with. But nowdays...who knows, there might be a talented coder out there, with the passion to pull off something decent. Like on Sega Saturn, i doubt it would be the Quake engine though, it would have to be one exclusively written for the Jag, i guess.

 

Anyways, i dont even like Quake that much, i prefer Duke Nukem 3D myself .

 

I'm not sure if we can use the Falcon work as an example of much of anything. While he's trying to get it to run on a stock Falcon with a sluggish-at-best framerate, it will still require at least 14MB of RAM (and probably more RAM than that and a good accelerator if it ever gets to a game state). Unless I missed something, right now it's just been the low framerate tech demos with no enemies or AI, etc. I'm not diminishing the work in the slightest (I have a Falcon myself so I know how cool that is to pull off), but it's not really Quake 2 on a Falcon (yet).

 

I suspect a similar type of tech demo could be developed for Quake on the Atari Jaguar, but that's still a long way from having all of the elements necessary for it to be a playable game (i.e., actually genuinely possible on the hardware).

[Lost Dragon]

At the time of Saturn Quake, UK Press was claiming game was impossible to port to PS1, 7 developers had tried and failed...if course Hammerhead went onto convert Quake 2, Erza Dreisback did a better than Saturn conversion, but no publisher wanted it....

 

Dave Perry had said MDK was impossible to do on PS1, yet Mick West converted it..it was a nightmare it seems (he chatted about it as part of the interview i did with him), but it was possible.

 

Difference there in both cases was not just the PS1 hardware and software tools, but fact it was a commercially viable platform, hell market leader, cue conversion of N64 Turok planned, PC Unreal well underway etc.

 

I'd wager combined sales of Jaguar Doom and Wolfenstien simply put the breaks on any plans for future games by I.D, sure Carmac probably would of loved to tinker more with Jaguar hardware and it'd been interesting to see if he could get Quake to a demo stage on hardware, but it as a viable commercial project then? nope...

[Lost Dragon]

Bill pretty much nails it, Quake running as it is on the Falcon is a bloody impressive tech demo and i'm in awe at what the coder has pulled off, but it's really up there with Dactyl Joust running on video on Jaguar, it's (as i understand it) missing the essential real game building blocks, such as A.I, solid frame rate etc.These hopefully will come, but if it requires 14 Meg on the Falcon, WTF is Quake going to require on Jaguar which is what, a 2Mb machine if memory serves?

 

It was the lack of Ram that people like Peter Moly.seemed to point to regarding possible PC conversions, period, let alone things like Quake or Magic Carpet....

 

 

Dreamcast Half Life looked great in still shots, but it was constantly seeing the game 'flow' being hit as it pulled more data off the disc,i played through it (and Blue Shift) once, but never again...sure it needed further optimising, but your still facing the memory issues of PC Vs Console.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[Gunstar]

But the Quake/2 stuff on the Falcon is also totally textured. Also, for Quake on the Jag, I don't think we have to have 3D models of the characters either. I could see a Quake, that has some textures, whatever might be pulled off at a decent frame-rate (using JagDoom as the bar for "decent." lets say), but maybe garuad shaded floors and/or ceilings, along with some walls, bridges, etc, but then throw in pre-rendered characters ala Doom, with 16 (possibly more) angles to them, maybe some perspective correction and Bob's your uncle! I don't need totally 3D monsters to shoot at. I personally think it's just about thinking outside of the box and not being constrained to trying to pull off everything the original Quake did, yet in the end, still have a very Quake-like game on the Jag that can live within the constraints of the hardware. something a bit more like Duke Nukem 3D,

 

That's how these programmers on the Genesis (Wolfenstein, Duke Nukem 3D) , etc. do it. We all know that I-war is a true 3D polygon engine that has upper and lower levels, a few that are step-pyramids, and bridges, etc, and when rooms are emptied of polygon enemies it's actually a pretty damn fast frame-rate, so if the enemies were all pre-rendered sprites, it would probably be pretty fast too, and I'm sure that engine could have been a lot more optimized too. I doubt it would have cost any processing power to add in the ability to look up and down into the I-war engine.

 

Think outside of the box even with the format, i.e., we know for sure cart and CD combos CAN be pulled off, ala Protector/Resurgence cart/CD combo, so to help with some types of memory constraints something similar could be used there too, of course we know that 6MB carts are possible too, and there's always bank-switching to fall back on, and main memory constraints could be gotten around with levels chopped up into smaller chunks and have brief loading times, etc. Or just have it only on Jag CD, so there's plenty of rom memory, though I know using CD takes a chuck of main memory, but Atari seemed to pull it off with Hoverstrike cart vs. CD and the CD versions is miles better. Hell, look at Cybermorph cart vs. Battlemorph CD. If you really want too, I really think it's possible. I'm just scratching the surface with out-of-the-box concepts here too, took me all the brain time of writing this post. And we know I'm supposedly retarded.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gunstar