How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[+madman]

By the way, if anyone wants an update on the campaign: the good news is that their $1040 pledge is back, but the bad news is that, aside for another $10 pledge, this is the only money that came in on Day 7. They've lost six more backers, so they're beginning Day 8 at 188 backers and $64,920 raised, $1050 below where they started on Day 7 and still hovering at 3% of their goal.

 

Here are their totals at the start of each day that I've been keeping track (in other words, the figures for each day are "snapshots" which show the state of the campaign at the beginning of that day, midnight CST):

 

Day 3 (09/21): 172 backers, $60041 raised

Day 4 (09/22): 186 backers, $66188 raised, +$6147

Day 5 (09/23): 187 backers, $65956 raised, -$232

Day 6 (09/24): 193 backers, $67580 raised, +$1624

Day 7 (09/25): 192 backers, $65970 raised, -$1610

Day 8 (09/26): 188 backers, $64920 raised, -$1050

Down another $50 and 1 backer now.

[phoenixdownita]

Given how important it is why is this not on the official RVGS and IGG pages?

[jaybird3rd]

Down another $50 and 1 backer now.

Yes. They're bleeding pretty badly.

 

 

edit:

its just his pants. nevermind

This is potentially the best edit in the history of forum edits

 

I truly wish I could "Like" this post twice. I nearly cracked a rib from laughing.

[InnovaX5]

Man, I don't even care anymore. Working proto. No working Proto. I'll never back this product just due to all the arrogance, crying, finger pointing, and all around horrible PR that these guys have churned out. I was your target audiance. Then you spoke and typed.

Edited September 26, 2015 by InnovaX5

[Radfoo]

This was posted on FaceBook by John Carlsen, but I haven't seen it posted here, unless I missed it.

 

https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-carlsen/retro-vgs-first-update-from-john/10153654884377520?hc_location=ufi

 

If what he says is true about draining his bank account, then that really makes me feel bad if this thing doesn't end up happening.

 

O.O

 

Much better, I think if this kind of information was provided at the start things might have been different. Still would like more facts but he explains things quite well, less of Mikes marketing spin. If I had had this information and it had been $299 including shipping and import duty to the UK I might have backed this, price is still crazy without fixed specs but I was more convinced of the concept a week ago than I perhaps am now so might have taken a punt.

 

Think they need to cancel IGG, think about what the customer wants, and then hopefully come back with a better campaign and product that is more developed.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Radfoo

[jaybird3rd]

Take a look at the two square boards nearest the power supply, with the small heat sinks and yellow RCA connectors:

Maybe I'm imagining things, but those look a lot like these inexpensive RGB-to-VGA converter boards from Hong Kong:

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 291522598562

 

Anyone care to speculate about why they would have needed to use these boards?

[Newsdee]

I get the impression they missed something big here. Their business model (beyond selling consoles) seems to be to sell cartridges to developers, who would hope to sell enough to cover the cost. Nowadays publishers such as Sony, Steam, or hell, even Apple can probably give you a better deal by taking a percentage of what you actually sell. Which developer in their right mind would choose the risk to end up with unsold carts?

Edited September 26, 2015 by Newsdee

[phoenixdownita]

Take a look at the two square boards nearest the power supply, with the small heat sinks and yellow RCA connectors:

 

Maybe I'm imagining things, but those look a lot like these inexpensive RGB-to-VGA converter boards from Hong Kong:

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 291522598562

 

Anyone care to speculate about why they would have needed to use these boards?

Those boards even have the 4 diamond tact switch so I believe you nailed them. And those are only 20US$ a pop.

 

EDIT: same picture shows a "Lattice" box on the side of the TV, Lattice being an FPGA manufacturer. But it may mean nothing.

http://www.latticesemi.com/en/Products/DevelopmentBoardsAndKits.aspx

Edited September 26, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Keatah]

One mistake is they are using finicky & flighty crowdfunding. VC and loans would be better - however more risky.

 

I highly doubt this is the complete RVGS workshop. Things aren't arranged quite like a workbench that sees regular usage. If it really is, I applaud them for being neat freaks!

 

At least they say they're back to being able to run original cartridges and describe a little bit about the VCS adapter. They do say, in a nebulous wordy way, they can do software or hardware emulation for classic emulation.

 

 

Man, I don't even care anymore. Working proto. No working Proto. I'll never back this product just due to all the arrogance, crying, finger pointing, and all around horrible PR that these guys have churned out. I was your target audiance. Then you spoke and typed.

 

This sort of thing happened back in Apple II days. It just happened at a slower pace and was hidden from the consumer. And as kids we wouldn't care even if it was exposed. The internet is the biggest BS amplifier ever conceived and lets everyone dig as much dirt as they want.

 

 

Take a look at the two boards nearest the power supply: Maybe I'm imagining things, but those look a lot like these inexpensive RGB-to-VGA converter boards from Hong Kong:
eBay Auction -- Item Number: 291522598562

 

Of course they are. I think it reasonable they have that type of board in a project like so.

 

 

I get the impression they missed something big here. Their business model (beyond selling consoles) seems to be to sell cartridges to developers, who would hope to sell enough to cover the cost. Nowadays publishers such as Sony, Steam, or hell, even Apple can probably give you a better deal by taking a percentage of what you actually sell. Which developer in their right mind would choose the risk to end up woth unsold carts?

 

In today's just-in-time manufacturing environment and monitoring of demand and availability they may be able to minimize excess overstock on a game. Years ago, that wasn't the case and thousands of retail stores had to be stocked with 50 carts of the same game each for a holiday season for example. Then if a game was a dud they all got returned or written off. Some even ended up in that landfill.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Keatah

[phoenixdownita]

.....

 

Of course they are. I think it reasonable they have that type of board in a project like so.

....

Although not unreasonable I don't get why they would be necessary either.

 

They claim HDMI, that's digital so no need, they claim Composite so that can go straight to any TV they have, the BS about SVideo and Component via Sega 32X cable we ignore [there are no such cables anyway], and we're left with RGB and that you better test against real RGB monitors not an upscaler to VGA.

 

So again why would this project actually need them is a little baffling albeit not inconceivable given the rest of the approach.

 

Regarding the "proto" I believe that we are seeing something else to quiet the unrest. I don't know what and I refuse to speculate further but the fact that the news was posted unannounced at 7:34PM on a Friday evening is even weirder, I would expected a "wait for a major announcement tomorrow" kind of style.

Edited September 26, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[ninja_gaiden2015]

Take a look at the two square boards nearest the power supply, with the small heat sinks and yellow RCA connectors:

 

Maybe I'm imagining things, but those look a lot like these inexpensive RGB-to-VGA converter boards from Hong Kong:

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 291522598562

 

Anyone care to speculate about why they would have needed to use these boards?

 

 

..... "all american made" indeed. He was boasting that the system was USA made only in an interview this morning on Gamester 81.

 

I actually wanted to buy into this project when I heard about the FPGA cores and that they had bought the tooling for the Jaguar case. This current iteration of the vision seems like a shadow of the things that have been promised. I really just wished that more of the bugs had been ironed-out (i.e had a clear and resolved piece of tech and were going to kickstart/crowdfund for production costs) and that the team had someone else in charge of marketing/PR. The idea of owning a copy of pier solar and gunlord on cart would have been fantastic.

[PlaysWithWolves]

It's not my IP, but I'm just not sure patenting is worth the risk of the project never coming to fruition.

They are asking people to fund their business start-up with all the risk and the only reward being a fairly pricey product -- maybe.

I do feel empathy for Carlsen if he indeed drained his savings, though. I just hope it didn't mostly go to lawyers.

[elmer]

What-on-earth is going on here ???

 

 

The true visionary behind this project is Mike Kennedy. He’s also a marketing person with a big heart, and he wants to reciprocate the enthusiasm our followers show us by being totally open and sharing everything. I get it, and I admire him for that. But he talks, and he talks about everything I show or tell him. Again, he’s a marketing person, and that’s what marketing people do.

 

Knowing this about Mike (and about marketing people in general), causes me (as an engineer) to be very cautious in choosing what I share with him. The reason for this is very simple: our inventions are valuable, and premature public disclosure of our inventions would cause us to lose the ability to protect them with patents.

For most of this year I’ve been working crazy long startup hours on this project. I’ve drained my own savings to pay for both my living expenses and building prototype circuits. I have invested a lot of time and money, I have a lot to show for it.

 

The problem is: I can’t patent what I share publicly. As a result, I’ve been protecting my inventions as if they were my own children.

So John is now claiming that there is a prototype, but he's not told Mike because he's afraid that it would spoil his ability to patent all the new inventions ... that he's already started to patent ... without telling Mike ... and so quite possibly by himself ... meanwhile leaving both his partners flapping in the wind for a week with a failing crowdfunding campaign.

 

I'm having some trouble getting my mind around that. Please someone ... let me know what I'm missing here!!!

 

Apart from which ... what the heck is patentable!!!! All that he's got to show is basically a Raspberry PI stuffed under a Jag-Wire shell, running X-Windows ... or maybe even less!!!!

[ninja_gaiden2015]

PS .... I joined these atari age forums because of thread here. I actually find it sad that this project has so many holes in it (even for crowdfunding standards). The console had the possibility to offer a platform for releasing homebrew titles for all of the "retro" consoles and upscale to HDMI or use RGB, as well as potential backwards compatibility for those systems. Instead we have a "indie steam on a cartridge" project instead. If they had a clearer objective and were more transparent about the tech, they might have had more of a chance in achieving it.

 

I don't wish harm on the guys working on the project, but if you want customers and potential customers to be on board with you, being upfront about specifics of the final console goes a long way. Asking $2 million dollars from people and then not being clear on what will specifically be the outcome of that money was destined to hit troubles along the way

[Keatah]

..... "all american made" indeed. He was boasting that the system was USA made only in an interview this morning on Gamester 81.

 

You can do experiments and protos with parts and assemblies made elsewhere. And most everything today is global. Especially electronics. Will all the chips and parts be fabbed here in the USA? Not likely. RVGS can be assembled in the US. Its various parts and sub-assemblies can be made anywhere in the world.

 

 

Although not unreasonable I don't get why they would be necessary either.

 

Anything can happen. I just don't jibe with the extraordinarily clean work area and its setting. I could set one up like that in an hour. But it could also simply be they want to make a nice appearance for the video - and the real work happens in the basement.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Keatah

[Newsdee]

In today's just-in-time manufacturing environment and monitoring of demand and availability they may be able to minimize excess overstock on a game. Years ago, that wasn't the case and thousands of retail stores had to be stocked with 50 carts of the same game each for a holiday season for example. Then if a game was a dud they all got returned or written off. Some even ended up in that landfill.

That's a very good point. They could also offer guarantees / buy back provisions to recycle cartridges. Still I feel this hasn't been discussed clearly and their webpage is very vague (asking a bunch of details from developers as if they are making them a favor to publish on their system). I guess they are betting on having a captive userbase as leverage, but them they have a chicken and egg problem...

[phoenixdownita]

OK someone thinks the green board under the Jag case in the video is this one:
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/225/MachXO2BreakoutBoardEvaluationKitUsersGuide-311071.pdf

Pointer
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=179986498&postcount=536

EDIT: not sure it lines up correctly though.

Edited September 26, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[ninja_gaiden2015]

 

You can do experiments and protos with parts and assemblies made elsewhere. And most everything today is global. Especially electronics. Will all the chips and parts be fabbed here in the USA? Not likely. RVGS can be assembled in the US. Its various parts and sub-assemblies can be made anywhere in the world.

 

 

 

.

My bad, I don't profess to be a tech expert. I have no problems with them assembling or making pcb's outside of the USA (I live in australia myself). I guess I just found it strange that they put so much of an emphasis on the items being fabricated here. Personally I think you should go wherever is cheapest whilst still maintaing quality

[ninja_gaiden2015]

OK someone thinks the green board under the Jag case in the video is this one:

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/225/MachXO2BreakoutBoardEvaluationKitUsersGuide-311071.pdf

 

Pointer

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=179986498&postcount=536

 

EDIT: not sure it lines up correctly though.

 

As someone who is less tech-literate (I just stick to console mods), does this mean that they have just purchased a kit to program FGPA's and have not actually made any "prototype" so to speak?

[+wood_jl]

Granted I see things purely from a layman's perspective, but why would a retrogaming device really need a bunch of patents? I would think that "the next big thing in gaming" would justify patents, and this hyptothetical "thing" would be something like an incredibly-powerful yet affordable GPU (or beyond) that would kick butt all over what's out there, be necessarily patented, and then licensed out to hardware makers for the next-generation of cutting edge gaming hardware, be part of the next console or some whiz-bang video card, or something cool I don't even know about, and make the inventor wildly rich. That doesn't sound very "retro."

 

But for retro-gaming? I think we retrogamers tend to way-overestimate the market for retrogaming. We tend to think it's going to be the next-big-thing. What's old is new again! From my experience, it's really just a small niche market. Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Nvidia (or whoever else) are going to be considerably more interested in next-gen stuff than ripping off niche market retro stuff; they're after the big bucks. The kids (who drop the big gaming bucks soon as they get it) I'm around a lot (college age) think the old stuff is mildly interesting, but *nothing* like a geezer like me thinks it's interesting. While I moved up to last-gen (PS3/XB360) last year and I'm still kind of impressed with it, they *couldn't wait* to dispose of their XB360s and get a Xbone or PS4. It's always going to be that way in the mainstream market. They toss their fancy cellphones for the latest, every 6 months. That's where the big bucks are always going to be.

 

I would think that pretty much any retrogaming device is going to be a small market, and profit could possibly be made by going into it knowing it's always going to be comparatively low-volume and gearing up production to be low-cost/expectedly low-volume, however that's possible. Catering to this niche retro market - in ways that large, insensitive companies (i.e. Sony) could never do - would be the needle to thread for a small company (or entity or whatever) in pursuit of such an endeavor. The niche market tends to hang out in places like this forum, and other forums dedicated to similar interests. Wouldn't it be wise to listen to the desires of the niche market and create an affordable product that pleases the "hardcore?" Again, the kind of stuff that Sony would never do? Instead, go with some nebulous, half-baked idea (and so far, only an idea) and call some of the most cultivated people (I certainly am NOT talking about myself; I'm merely an observer) in your niche market with the best suggestions "haters" and "trolls?" I don't get it.

[Keatah]

OK someone thinks the green board under the Jag case in the video is this one:

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/225/MachXO2BreakoutBoardEvaluationKitUsersGuide-311071.pdf

 

Pointer

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=179986498&postcount=536

 

EDIT: not sure it lines up correctly though.

 

The FTDI label area is not quite matching. Try again.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Keatah

[StopDrop&Retro]

If Mike really is in the dark (yeah, right) then I figure we'll see some activity tomorrow morning.

 

None of it makes sense though. I'm starting to think this is a viral stunt engineered by them. Pretend like a rouge engineer on the project is teasing a prototype and see which news site picks it up.

 

Oh well, I don't even know why I want answers, it's not like this is going to reverse the fate of this campaign anyways.

[bunnyboy]

http://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/ispmach-evaluation-board/33074 Size, location of parts like chip/headers/white bar matches. Thats a ~$15 CPLD instead of a ~$50 FPGA. Looks completely unconnected to the red board,

[Radfoo]

The console had the possibility to offer a platform for releasing homebrew titles for all of the "retro" consoles and upscale to HDMI or use RGB, as well as potential backwards compatibility for those systems. Instead we have a "indie steam on a cartridge" project instead.

Well written, that is how I see it too. The original concept was great and I think people would buy it, though probably still not to the tune of $2million. "indie steam on a cartridge" is a bit bonkers, particularly when you start to think how this would work, it means the cartridge will contain a large amount of storage with linux, xwindow, maybe an emulator, then the game itself, certainly not going to be the instant startup you had with previous cartridge systems. Seems very PC like to me and if it isn't they need to explain how this will work.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Radfoo

[ninja_gaiden2015]

http://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/ispmach-evaluation-board/33074 Size, location of parts like chip/headers/white bar matches. Thats a ~$15 CPLD instead of a ~$50 FPGA. Looks completely unconnected to the red board,

 

Does this mean that he has simply purchased a kit or something and that there are no "Retro VGS PCB's" so to speak that have been designed. I find it hard to understand how a person could patent a kit fgpa pcb and a china-made/ebay-bought video pcb, that is housed in an old jaguar case.

 

The red board (under the shell) looks somewhat similar to other cheap video boards.

 

I don't pretend to have the same level of tech knowledge as many others on this forum though