sh3-rg Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 A quick update on the campaign: they were down again for most of Day 8, dipping as low as -$1484 by early afternoon, but thanks to a combination of new pledges and existing backers digging deeper into their pockets, they were (barely) back into positive territory by early evening. They begin Day 9 at 191 backers and $65,145 raised, $225 above where they started the day before. By my calculations, they're still $2,435 short of their peak at the start of Day 6, and $12,855 away from finally bringing their cumulative total above 3% of their minimum goal. They'd need to raise at least $50K per day through the remainder of the campaign to meet their goal. Here are their totals at the start of each day that I've been keeping track (in other words, the figures for each day are "snapshots" which show the state of the campaign at the beginning of that day, midnight CST): Day 3 (09/21): 172 backers, $60041 raised Day 4 (09/22): 186 backers, $66188 raised, +$6147 Day 5 (09/23): 187 backers, $65956 raised, -$232 Day 6 (09/24): 193 backers, $67580 raised, +$1624 Day 7 (09/25): 192 backers, $65970 raised, -$1610 Day 8 (09/26): 188 backers, $64920 raised, -$1050 Day 9 (09/27): 191 backers, $65145 raised, +$225 Looks like they lost 2 more console backers, $918 down with one new backer for $10 in past hour, 190 backers total: $64,227USD raised by 190 people in 8 days 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 One other interesting thing about that Game On Expo video (which happened Aug 28th or 29th, I believe) is that somewhere in the 20-25 minute mark they expressly say this will not play old cartridges and it's not an emulation machine. Carlsen even mentions he's against emulation because old systems are so readily available. Back somewhere around Sept. 1st or 2nd I misremembered an old Mike Kennedy post as implying there would be cartridge adapters. This generated some interest from members here. Then suddenly on a Sept. 2nd post here Kennedy announces: Hey, we're keeping FPGA because we'll have cartridge adapters! Could be coincidental, but is it any wonder that people think there's something fishy going on? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Nick Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) I'm surprised by the mostly positive comments at facebook on the John Carlsen's 'prototype', while everyone at atari-age immediately smells bullsh#t. Power goes in, high-def goes out, prototype confirmed! My wife watched the video with John Carlsen, she was amazed. She thinks it's a scam for sure. "look at me moving the window on the monitor!!" Scott may say that Mike Kennedy started out as legit, but when the house starts to fall you end up trying everything. It is just how things unfold. By the way, what is that DAC John is selling? /Nicholas I've watched this several times now, and read his full write up on his FB. I feel so uncomfortable when I watch it, but I just can't place my finger on it. I don't think it's because he's a camera shy introvert, it's..... something else entirely. Let's think about this... Red flag number 1: Mike has been yammering on, and on (and on.......AND FREAKING ON) about how it would cost them several hundred thousand dollars to build a working prototype. Then John reveals a prototype?!? Then goes on to say that devs already have protos to work on as well?!? Red flag number 2: John admits that he has been hiding key work from Mike. Your upstart is only 3 people, and yet you are hiding the core work because Mike is a blabbermouth? So, either the team is doomed because they can't trust each other, or they willfully lied to us as a group, to sponge us for money. Anyone have a less dark theory? Red flag number 3: Ok, I know very little about electronics, so others may jump in, and correct me if needed here. Why talk about the lab power supply so much? Why is that a focus point? I don't understand why I needed to know about this. Why would you loosely drape a clear Jag shell top over an off the shelf proto board, with an off the shelf VGA to RGB board? There is nothing secret, or patentable about those working together AFAIK. (Perhaps he is using this to write the "very thin OS layer"?) Why mention that's it's air cooled? This proto board, as far as I can tell, doesn't require a fan anyway. And if that's not the final hardware build, why bring it up now? Red flag number 4: What is on this screen? Windows? Linux? Why not show a game demo? I thought Dev's already had protos? Why would they have them, if they can't run the games yet? They already have the controller, why is that not in the demo? They can't run an early build of Tiny Knight for us? Ok, I feel paranoid observing all of this, I need to stop for now. Comments anyone? One other interesting thing about that Game On Expo video (which happened Aug 28th or 29th, I believe) is that somewhere in the 20-25 minute mark they expressly say this will not play old cartridges and it's not an emulation machine. Carlsen even mentions he's against emulation because old systems are so readily available. Back somewhere around Sept. 1st or 2nd I misremembered an old Mike Kennedy post as implying there would be cartridge adapters. This generated some interest from members here. Then suddenly on a Sept. 2nd post here Kennedy announces: Hey, we're keeping FPGA because we'll have cartridge adapters! Could be coincidental, but is it any wonder that people think there's something fishy going on? Mike has waffled on this feature for a while now. I have been following this closely since April. RVGS Guys, PULL THE PLUG, AND TRY TO SAVE FACE NOW. Edited September 27, 2015 by Retro Nick 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcdev Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Red flag number 3: Ok, I know very little about electronics, so others may jump in, and correct me if needed here. Why talk about the lab power supply so much? Why is that a focus point? I don't understand why I needed to know about this. Why would you loosely drape a clear Jag shell top over an off the shelf proto board, with an off the shelf VGA to RGB board? There is nothing secret, or patentable about those working together AFAIK. (Perhaps he is using this to write the "very thin OS layer"?) Why mention that's it's air cooled? This proto board, as far as I can tell, doesn't require a fan anyway. And if that's not the final hardware build, why bring it up now? To answer each of your questions: Deflection. Because there's nothing else to talk about. You don't need to know about it. To hide that exact fact. No, nothing patentable. Again, deflection. Fan, no fan, it's all air cooled. Again, nothing else to talk about. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Looks like they lost 2 more console backers, $918 down with one new backer for $10 in past hour, 190 backers total: $64,227 USD raised by 190 people in 8 days I was just checking it myself! At this point, I really don't know why they don't just pack it in: their few enthusiastic backers don't have infinitely deep pockets, and they can't realistically hope to attract many more with all the negativity surrounding the project (which, again, is mostly THEIR OWN FAULT, no matter how much they try to blame us). This ... ... is not inspiring to anybody. (EDIT: Another backer gone, now down to $63,888, the lowest it's been since Day 3. Time to pull the plug!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 I was just checking it myself! At this point, I really don't know why they don't just pack it in: their few enthusiastic backers don't have infinitely deep pockets, and they can't realistically hope to attract many more with all the negativity surrounding the project (which, again, is mostly THEIR OWN FAULT, no matter how much they try to blame us). This ... rvgs.png ... is not inspiring to anybody. They have a fan (I'm assuming) on twitter throwing out invitations to people to support the project, seemingly at random. Pikachu probably thinks he's doing them a favour, but they might see it as being spammed. He's definitely making it hard for me to track RVGS news there because it's 90% him and the same tweet going out to anyone he can find :0) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Someone removed the link to this discussion from the project's Wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Retro_VGS&action=history 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leods Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 They have a fan (I'm assuming) on twitter throwing out invitations to people to support the project, seemingly at random. Pikachu probably thinks he's doing them a favour, but they might see it as being spammed. He's definitely making it hard for me to track RVGS news there because it's 90% him and the same tweet going out to anyone he can find :0) I'm not saying everybody is like that, and my Intention is not to offend anyone, but it's pretty clear that a lot of the hardcore supporters of the Project either have very Little technical knowledge or are somewhat simple minded so to speak. This is also something Mike didin't pay Attention to. He shouldn't be just looking at how many People Thing his idea is great, he should be looking at who These People are. If you win People who'll instantly buy an idea just because you threw some efficient Marketing at them, you can be sure someone else will also throw their Marketing in a couple months from now, and those People will go away. I do Believe the OUYA suffered a bit of that. Some People wanted the System, but I think others just didin't realyze the Computer they had at home was already doing all that, they heard about this new exciting Thing, bought into it but by the time it was released they were already addicted to candy crush or some other iOS app and the OUYA wasn't as interesting anymore... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) New video, not seen yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfZwNCLC0tU EDIT: It's pretty good, he speaks calmly and concisely and covers most things really well. His steps to recovery is nicely pitched, too. Edited September 27, 2015 by sh3-rg 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emehr Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Someone removed the link to this discussion from the project's Wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Retro_VGS&action=history #define kSomeone "MikeKennedy" All of this censorship of the critics, and that alone, has guaranteed that I will never support a Mike Kennedy project. This trumps everything else he's done driving this project into the ground: poor management can be mitigated in future projects; poor planning and poor ideas can be learned from when future ideas come along; and poor press is only temporary. Censoring dissent, however, even when it is constructive, is where I draw the line. If he can't take criticism like a professional then he is poison to any project he undertakes. Actively blaming the very people whose voices he is censoring just screams adolescence and unprofessionalism. I think I'm done following this mess. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Unlike Facebook, Wikipedia doesn't have a lot of tolerance for these sneaky censorship shenanigans. All changes are logged and tagged with a username or IP address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 New video, not seen yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfZwNCLC0tU EDIT: It's pretty good, he speaks calmly and concisely and covers most things really well. His steps to recovery is nicely pitched, too. Good video, indeed. His #2 step is interesting, and I think not mentioned enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+swlovinist Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 The above video clip sums up how I feel about the project. It is conveyed in a calm manner, and I appreciate that. I am typically a pretty passive guy and HUGE follower of retro projects. I have supported the Atari XM, the Coleco Super Expansion Module, and countless homebrew games and hardware over the years. I really hope that the project can do a reset, or I feel that it will not be funded. I wish them well, but at this point, the damage has been done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaperman Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) #define kSomeone "MikeKennedy" Unlike Facebook, Wikipedia doesn't have a lot of tolerance for these sneaky censorship shenanigans. All changes are logged and tagged with a username or IP address.can somebody help me out with this, I'm not great with wikipedia. when I look I see it being an edit from the Florida area: 69.126.79.125 72.184.123.26 (edited after I looked a bit closer) What am I looking for there? I would have guessed the other coast. Edited September 27, 2015 by Reaperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triverse Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 2 pm Central Standard Time- www.retrogamingmagazine.com 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Sombering numbers: the RVGS FB page counts ~16.5K likes, the wikipedia page has been seens ~1700 in the last month (http://stats.grok.se/en/latest/Retro_VGS) If this is any representative of the real userbase .... there isn't really one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 2 pm Central Standard Time- www.retrogamingmagazine.com If you continue to do interviews like this, I hope you take the previous commenter's advice and get transcription software. Then you can just (hopefully?) listen again and verify or edit as needed. Well, if the software works as promised, that is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 The above video clip sums up how I feel about the project. It is conveyed in a calm manner, and I appreciate that. I am typically a pretty passive guy and HUGE follower of retro projects. I have supported the Atari XM, the Coleco Super Expansion Module, and countless homebrew games and hardware over the years. I really hope that the project can do a reset, or I feel that it will not be funded. I wish them well, but at this point, the damage has been done. I agree with you about his presentation style, it is calm and well thought out. I do not agree that withholding details is a good idea, even if the price were cut in half. Part of crowdfunding is convincing people that you can actually deliver a product, and RVGS has done nothing to demonstrate they can produce anything beyond the Jaguar cases. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowkn55 Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 The fact that we know does not mean that they do. Kevtris already stated that the John guy thought old consoles did 480i rather than 240p60 ... ouch! Someone there is claiming they will support SVideo and Component out via 32X cable ... that never existed, only composite or RGB, 32X never had SVideo or component (YPbPr) out ... so you see what they think and what we know are rather different things. EDIT: I keep harping on the SVideo thing as I modded all my consoles to out SVideo as my main gaming LCD TV gives me outstanding results with it (probably by luck) as it does not condition the signal as heavily as from composite (which look like sh*t instead on the same TV). It's not impossible to carry s-video and/or component video over genny2/32x style connector. After all, the genny2/32x (and cdx and xeye, etc) connector is an off the shelf 9-pin mini-din connector. I repurposed the same connector and used most of the original pinout for my own personal project (Omega CMVS) so that it could output s-video and component. I took out the two signals I thought were most unused (mono audio and composite sync) and replaced them with luma and chroma for s-video. RGB and component have shared pins and are toggled with a physical switch but composite and s-video can be independently driven. The result was that I managed to cram most of the commonly used analog signals into a single connector so it can be done. Of course, you still need the internal circuitry to handle these additional signals. Just having the cable doesn't mean the signal becomes available. The component cables are still hand-made but the s-video/composite cables are custom molded just for my system. But being the modder I am, I purposely pinned it out so that it would be "forwards compatible" with model 2 genesis in the slight chance people wanted to s-video mod their systems internally and use a readily available cable for a clean presentation. I offered to do the mod for free for a couple guys just to show that it could be done and they were all very happy with the result. The downside to getting custom cables that I literally had to order a pallet of them but since they come with every unit I sell, it was a big time saver and let me step up my game at the same time. tl;dr All I'm saying is that don't discount the possibility of new signals added to a pre-existing standard. Creative engineering can yield interesting results. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) It's not impossible to carry s-video and/or component video over genny2/32x style connector. After all, the genny2/32x (and cdx and xeye, etc) connector is an off the shelf 9-pin mini-din connector. I repurposed the same connector and used most of the original pinout for my own personal project (Omega CMVS) so that it could output s-video and component. ..... The component cables are still hand-made but the s-video/composite cables are custom molded just for my system. But being the modder I am, I purposely pinned it out so that it would be "forwards compatible" with model 2 genesis in the slight chance people wanted to s-video mod their systems internally and use a readily available cable for a clean presentation. I offered to do the mod for free for a couple guys just to show that it could be done and they were all very happy with the result. The downside to getting custom cables that I literally had to order a pallet of them but since they come with every unit I sell, it was a big time saver and let me step up my game at the same time. tl;dr All I'm saying is that don't discount the possibility of new signals added to a pre-existing standard. Creative engineering can yield interesting results. ....sorry to correct you these are their specs: + Signals - Digital High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) - Analog audio output: stereo or mono at line level via RCA connector(s) - Analog intermediate frequency (IF) video output (1 at a time) - Composite video, blanking, and sync (CVBS) via RCA or expansion port - S-Video available via optional Sega 32X cable or expansion port - RGB available via optional Sega 32X cable or expansion port - Component available via optional Sega 32X cable or expansion port There's no standard Sega 32X cable that does that in the market, you can modify anything you want but that makes it a custom cable not a 32X cable period. They really discounted it thinking anyone can go out and buy a 32X cable and be done, that is not the case. Had they used a Saturn connector then at least SVideo would have been covered via standard Saturn cable (and of course RGB and composite). On the topic of dropping CSync, it's controversial because RGB + composite as sync has the jailbars problem on real Genesis/32X, while using CSync apparently alleviates the issue, so an arbitrary choice to drop that signal is not a given. Edited September 27, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarPath Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) Not to be off-topic but here's a random thought that just occurred to me. So Mike obviously realizes there is conflict with whether or not the ability to update your games is a good thing. This is why he brings it up, because he thinks if he sells you the idea that not having this capability is a good thing, then it won't matter. So why couldn't you have a method of updating that involves downloading an update from their website, sticking it on a thumb drive and then through one of the USB ports the system could install the update or even better flash the update to ram on the cartridge itself. If they'd invested any time at all figuring stuff like this out, and less time fluffing up the project with multi colored plastic fetishism and starting tons of unnecessary drama they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. Edited September 27, 2015 by StarPath 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowkn55 Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 ....sorry to correct you these are their specs: + Signals - Digital High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) - Analog audio output: stereo or mono at line level via RCA connector(s) - Analog intermediate frequency (IF) video output (1 at a time) - Composite video, blanking, and sync (CVBS) via RCA or expansion port - S-Video available via optional Sega 32X cable or expansion port - RGB available via optional Sega 32X cable or expansion port - Component available via optional Sega 32X cable or expansion port There's no standrard Sega 32X cable that does that in the market, you can modify anything you want but that makes it a custom cable not a 32X cable period. That's all technically true but if we're going on the road of further speculation, they probably meant that those signals would be available by means of the 32x "port." If they have the talent on board, it wouldn't be a stretch to modify the pin out the same way I did and get some custom cables to go along with it. There is a clear disconnect between marketing and engineering in this project and it's very possible that marketing is choosing words that laymen are more likely to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 I do not agree that withholding details is a good idea, even if the price were cut in half. Part of crowdfunding is convincing people that you can actually deliver a product, and RVGS has done nothing to demonstrate they can produce anything beyond the Jaguar cases. He says, "Don't give out details on the system until you are firmly committed to them." Just about the only things to not change on this system are the Jaguar shapes and the modified WI-U controller. They really should have nailed down specs before talking about them; it just causes confusion and makes RVGS team sound squirrely and possibly dishonest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayhem Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Wow, I go out for the night and there's eight new pages to digest... or regurgitate really. What a fustercluck... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) That's all technically true but if we're going on the road of further speculation, they probably meant that those signals would be available by means of the 32x "port." If they have the talent on board, it wouldn't be a stretch to modify the pin out the same way I did and get some custom cables to go along with it. There is a clear disconnect between marketing and engineering in this project and it's very possible that marketing is choosing words that laymen are more likely to understand. I explicitly remember a post in which they claimed that that was their choice due to the availability of said cables, so not just the port. Anyway I always wanted to buy a CMVS, just the Omega is a little out of reach for me, I wish they were cheaper. I had to settle for an AES + MagicKey, I modded for SVideo but my TV does not like its signal especially when playing Pulstar, I would venture that MVS is even worse (on my TV). Now I have a Framemeister (not just for the AES obviosuly) and use RGB but it didn't come cheap. Also even with the Framemeister I cannot use sync=auto [HDMI sync to console] for the AES for the same reason, but at least I can use sync=off [HDMI locked at 60p] and deal with the very minor tear. Edited September 27, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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