How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[roland p]

I'm surprised by the mostly positive comments at facebook on the John Carlsen's 'prototype', while everyone at atari-age immediately smells bullsh#t.

 

Power goes in, high-def goes out, prototype confirmed!

[StarPath]

So if this business about patenting isnt even possible for them why would they use it as the reason for not doing the only thing that could save them at this point, showing us what it is capable of or at the very least showing us the hardware and explaining what we're supposed to be funding. Surely they'd figure out in a short amount of time that a patent wouldn't be possible or financially feasible. So many huge questions arise surrounding this patenting idea given its importance as the reason given that there is no transparency with the project which is why I am asking them.

[phoenixdownita]

The fact that we know does not mean that they do.

Kevtris already stated that the John guy thought old consoles did 480i rather than 240p60 ... ouch!
Someone there is claiming they will support SVideo and Component out via 32X cable ... that never existed, only composite or RGB, 32X never had SVideo or component (YPbPr) out ... so you see what they think and what we know are rather different things.

EDIT: I keep harping on the SVideo thing as I modded all my consoles to out SVideo as my main gaming LCD TV gives me outstanding results with it (probably by luck) as it does not condition the signal as heavily as from composite (which look like sh*t instead on the same TV).

Edited September 27, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Albert]

EDIT: I keep harping on the SVideo thing as I modded all my consoles to out SVideo as my main gaming LCD TV gives me outstanding results with it (probably by luck) as it does not condition the signal as heavily as from composite (which look like sh*t instead on the same TV).

Virtually every one of my 2600, 5200, and 7800 consoles (around 30 of them) is modified with composite and s-video output. I love s-video output.

 

..Al

[StarPath]

But they need a last ditch effort at this point, so it wouldn't be a hard decision to take a step back and consider that the patent doesn't mean jack when people are literally telling you they will only fund it if they know what the hardware will be.

[moycon]

I was all set to back the project till I saw this thread.

Oh well. Somebody rattle my cage when there is a crowd funded Dreamcast 2. I'd be all over that.

[RupanIII]

Well, the Good First:
John Carlsen has confirmed 2 important things:

They have settled on a spec of 16,000 DhryMIPS for the ARM processor and that he's currently using a Rockchip 3188 for prototyping. He states that is their minimum. That also means there's no assurance it will be a Quad Core A9 rather than a faster speed Dual Core, which would better benefit Indie games i'd believe.

The machine will use more than 1GB of RAM, though Several GB of RAM is not necessary for it's function. So, if it gets 2GB of RAM it's as powerful as the Wii U probably, lol.

 

So, at least those are settled. I just wish Mike Kennedy would stop acting like Gamers are buying a dream and not hardware, John Carlsen is a great hardware guy but likes to keep from public speaking.

 

My guess is they have some FPGA things they are patenting. I haven't worked on FPGA so it's the area of greater mystery for me. My understanding is that without using an OS... they are loading cores into the FPGA onboard and playing things. This seems highly unlikely just for the sake of driving HDMI out and 9 pin or USB controls. I am convinced the box would have to boot to at least the OS mode, no GUI, services mode, to support playing off the FPGA, which is now a secondary concern.

So if this business about patenting isnt even possible for them why would they use it as the reason for not doing the only thing that could save them at this point, showing us what it is capable of or at the very least showing us the hardware and explaining what we're supposed to be funding. Surely they'd figure out in a short amount of time that a patent wouldn't be possible or financially feasible. So many huge questions arise surrounding this patenting idea given its importance as the reason given that there is no transparency with the project which is why I am asking them.

[leods]

I don't understand this. They're going full stupid. Who's gonna release a big complex game on a machine that will have a ridiculously small user base? If you want to make a 3D game of more complexity you go for Steam. They are Charging 300 bucks so they can have this power that no one will ever use? They actually believed they'd have a Million Units of this Thing out there? WOW...

[triverse]

Okay, I am going to bed. The interview is copied over to text but I have to still get it on the site. Word count is 13,660 words and a file size of 123kb.

[AE35]

I'm surprised by the mostly positive comments at facebook on the John Carlsen's 'prototype', while everyone at atari-age immediately smells bullsh#t.

 

Power goes in, high-def goes out, prototype confirmed!

 

My wife watched the video with John Carlsen, she was amazed. She thinks it's a scam for sure. "look at me moving the window on the monitor!!"

 

Scott may say that Mike Kennedy started out as legit, but when the house starts to fall you end up trying everything. It is just how things unfold.

 

By the way, what is that DAC John is selling?

 

/Nicholas

[AE35]

Okay, I am going to bed. The interview is copied over to text but I have to still get it on the site. Word count is 13,660 words and a file size of 123kb.

 

Going to bed?? It is early in the morning here in the future!!

[driph]

Okay, I am going to bed. The interview is copied over to text but I have to still get it on the site. Word count is 13,660 words and a file size of 123kb.

 

Good lord, nice novella. Hope you at least had some decent transcription helper software to keep the constant pause/play/type from driving you batty.

 

Thanks for doing this, looking forward to the interview.

[roland p]

 

Going to bed?? It is early in the morning here in the future!!

I stopped reading at 0:00, slept, and started catching up again at 6:30 (GMT+2) (my kids woke me up)

[AE35]

Google was my friend This is Johns DAC for Commodore 128. I had a C128 back in the day!

 

http://www.bit-c128.com/

[sh3-rg]

John just wants to build a console, Mike wants to build an empire.

 

Video games are supposed to be fun, I don't think they are having fun.

Keen observations.

 

Not my point.
I personally realized I care about kevtris system because I realized I care about a "cycle perfect" emulation (FPGA reimplementation if you prefer) and the perk of NOT having to use actual carts AND the perk of using HDMI, add to that I could reclaim a room full of space and at 200-250US$ it would be like heaven.
So I suddenly realized that the RVGS promise to play modern retro style games in a cart is just not my cup of tea at all ... I do not want a console for that because any modern console/tablet/phone can do that already without the clutter ... but that is just me.

Apparently it's not just you.

 

My personal interest in RVGS goes back to when this thread was posted in the Jaguar forum. I assumed, quite stupidly, that because it was in a Jaguar case and posted to that forum, that it was going to be something like a Super Jaguar, an implementation of the Jaguar 2 chipset or something like SCPCD has been working on for years. When it wasn't that, my interest dropped, but the thread was still there each time I checked in on what was happening in the Jaguar scene. The more I learned about FPGA possibilities and what was being done with them, directly as a result of this thread, the more interest I have in one day owning a tidy little box of tricks that recreates multiple old systems, if it can do so simply and elegantly. But I have no desire to go anywhere near cartridge, old or new, and see/make use of emulation more as a tool for creating things.

 

I'm interested in kevtris' proposal because it would play system perfect games from the one system and support SD card with RGB and HDMI outputs.

Deffo. I paid more just to get decent HDMI out of my Jaguar for recording and playing (xRGB mini + elgato).

 

I'm surprised by the mostly positive comments at facebook on the John Carlsen's 'prototype', while everyone at atari-age immediately smells bullsh#t.

 

Power goes in, high-def goes out, prototype confirmed!

Because they've been baleeting stuff left and right.

 

Okay, I am going to bed. The interview is copied over to text but I have to still get it on the site. Word count is 13,660 words and a file size of 123kb.

Mike Kennedy can talk. I have a hard time believing even 2% of the words you transcribed will be worth reading, but appreciate the effort and probably prefer the completeness rather than being left wondering what you left out.

 

Just a shame, every hour that passes that interview is less and less interesting to an audience that's dwindling as RVGS becomes yesterday's news for many of them. People in this thread and others like it will still want to check it out, of course.

Edited September 27, 2015 by sh3-rg

[Shiru]

Those Gonbes GBS-8220 units aren't used in this demo; I use them with another product I make and already sell worldwide (a specialized video DAC).

A specialized product that is selling worldwide sounds way more impressive than a C128 video DAC based on someone's else design. At least a copyright was enough to protect this invention.

 

I'm feeling like I'm sound quite negative towards the guy, but really, the way he puts things is just shady. Why not just say it explictly what exactly his past works actually are? Is he not self-confident enough, and afraid they're not that impressive? It is totally better to honestly say 'I did this and that, I know, it may not look like much, but I'm learned a lot of it, and feel prepared for this bigger project'. It gives more credibility than these loud statements.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Shiru

[AE35]

 

Just a shame, every hour that passes that interview is less and less interesting to an audience that's dwindling as RVGS becomes yesterday's news for many of them. People in this thread and others like it will still want to check it out, of course.

 

 

Agreed...this is not a critique of the guy editing the podcast, but the interview is going towards irrelevance. Actually, I am not sure if I am going to listen to it now - it's old news. This thread and Youtube videos moves way faster. When your troops have deciphered the codes, the war is already over.

 

/Nicholas

Edited September 27, 2015 by AE35

[UKMike]

My big question, that no one is bringing up, is what happened to Mike's attempt at taking on Gamestop and other "used game stores"? I remember quite well about him launching a game service that would pay the original publishers a percentage of the sale price for their old games that this "Gamestop killer" processed. They advertised they would be paying more than Gamestop for games too.

That project went on for a while and I know Mike met with several game companies about them supporting it but in the end they all felt that it would hurt their sales of new games so it came to and end.

[Papa]

I can't believe how this has spiraled down! I know that hating on it may be causing some of this, but it couldn't be the primary detractor! The reason for wanting cartridges is obvious! They last for a LOOOOOONG TIME, and they usually don't have load times or need moving parts to work! Solid state is better (usually)! I want this to be real and believed it completely!! That being said...

 

...when this was first announced I was under the impression that it was 'going' to happen (wasn't relying on a 'kickstarter' or whatnot)!

 

From what I could gather it was never supposed to play older carts, but rather would play popular modern games that are made in the 'retro' (term is getting beaten to death) style on cartridges that would last forever for $180! I LOVED the idea and I don't give a crap if there are a couple of bugs in the game or if it never gets updated!

 

I don't see why they would want to make adapters to play existing 'retro' games when the 'retro' audience is likely already doing that with their 'retro' systems! I play Genesis games on my Genesis, etc. I liked the idea of playing a modern 'retro' style game on a cartridge.

 

Now they look a lot like they are just competing with the Retron5 or one of these dye-drop FPGA famiclones and 'possibly' bringing the 'retro' style games out for the system itself. When they started asking for $350 and for THREE F*CKING MILLION I got spindizzy!

 

I WANT this system for games like Gunlord and Tiny Knight, NOT for playing NES or Genesis games! I WANT this system to be real but I think they just shot themselves in the foot BIGTIME!!

 

What a sad situation.

[Keatah]

Wow this thread moves quick. Just catching up now. Lots of quotes.

 

 

I don't understand the fascination (or fetish) Retrogamers have with playing cartridges. It's like a selective memory for the 'good old times' that isolates one aspect of the period but ignores everything else happening at the same time that was crappy. Cartridges were a necessary evil for delivering content because other forms of media were too expensive, fragile, complicated, or just plain didn't exist. Consoles back in the day were successful IN SPITE OF cartridges, not because of them.

 

How about those terrible RF modulator boxes you had to screw into the back of your TV? You know, the ones that buzzed with interference whenever someone on your street so much as turned on a blender. I can fully understand using a CRT over an LCD due to lag, but would anyone willingly pick RF over composite?

 

How about those awkward joysticks that were just a little too big for your ten year old hands? I don't see anyone singing the praises of the 5200 or Colecovision controllers these days like they were some fine wine. Today, your 40+ year old hands are more comfortable with the USB joypad and custom button macros -- but the game HAS to be on a cartridge or my whole retro experience isn't 'pure'!

 

 

It's a no-win situation for the RetroVGS. They want to make a console that will fill a perceived niche but it also has to conform to the industry standards to make it usable in a modern living room, including the ability to display on a hi-def TV. Gamers sort of expect conveniences like being able to turn on the whole shebang wirelessly from the couch -- and then in a weird display of creative anachronism have to get up and walk across the room to plug in a cartridge. Either you are hardcore retro or you are weekend warrior retro. Two very distinct markets that I personally don't think a one-console Swiss Army Knife can straddle.

 

Yup! How else was the Game Program supposed to be delivered? The PlayCable thing bombed. And modems overall were too complex and slow for anyone not technically inclined.

 

Yes very much so. I remember as a kid getting flustered and P.O.'d when dumping all my carts on the floor and spreading them out to search through 50 or so to find one specific one. The carts took an unholy amount of abuse too. And cleaning them up and re-organizing them was a nightmare for a kid. So some years later when my collection was destroyed, it could be seen as a blessing in disguise, I guess.

 

But they were sure as hell all cool to look at and everyday I came home from school I'd make it a point to walk past the bookcase. I was damned proud. JUST LOOK AT THAT!!

 

Today it's different. Different, yet the same. When I walk into the theater area I always take a look at my emulation box. And get a warm fuzzy feeling of days gone by. All the good times - the framework is right there. One box. But it's done right and provides many new features to the games of yore we could only dream about like proper HDMI for modern display. Pause feature, speedup overclock, screenshots, highly customizable controller, speed of search and access. Ability to segue between systems. Endless storage space for documentation that won't fade or get lost. Extraordinary reliability and consistency and convenience. Availability of parts. Best of all I don't have to mess with picture controls or doggy switchboxes.

 

Oh I'm sure carts and switchboxes and sprawling shelves are part of the genuine classic gaming experience. But how much of that experience does one want to put up with. Meh.. And there's a thread right here on AA that's rather depressing to read about people moving away from their collections, selling it off, moving on. The one bright spot in that thread is emulation. Some have converted to emulation, and I'd assume maybe SD cards and likewise. I did that move, not out of choice, almost 20 years ago.

 

It was a good one! I like all amenities and special features, neatness, futuristic modern minimalist look, and other goodness which emulation brings to the table.

 

So when RVGS came around I was hoping it would be a supplement to existing emulation activities. A way to get some hardware emulation via FPGA. It was pitched that way, wasn't it? But it failed. Next stop is getting a Zimba3000, if it comes to light, to supplement (but not replace) my main emulation box. If that fails to materialize I'll get into Emulation Station or RetroPie. Again as supplements, not replacements. Round out the deal you know.

 

 

I agree. I think the RVGS campaign has become dangerous at this point.

 

On the face of it, it's an idea that preys on collectors. Now with all this patent shit, it's designed to control and prey on the homebrew community.

 

Well that's one way to look at it. The preying on collectors part is true. But many other business do the same thing. Sports memorabilia for one.

 

I don't know of any homebrew project that would be using RVGS "technology". Could be anything. I don't see how any of their patents could slow the development of homebrew carts for example.

 

So if you could elaborate on this method of control and what aspect it pertains to, that'd be great. I want to hear it.

 

 

I'll be sincere. To me the most disgraceful use of crowdfunding there is is what Mike wants to do. You ask for People for Money, and for them to believe your cool idea. You take all that Money to develop a product, and found a Company, and from there, without any risk from your part you start multiplaying that Money.

[..]

 

This is kinda-sorta what angered me. I am *NOT* funding your business for you. It was one of the contention points we discussed when it came time to decide whether to back (or not) the project generously.

 

 

I drove a borrowed Pinto (in the 80s) for a short time and it wasn't as bad as people think. I think the problems were rare.
Now it's kind of a "classic" and it's V8-capable for modding.

[sorry off-topic, just replying]

 

The infantile screwing around we did with that car (and others like the Nova) was loads fun. I think we even surpassed Milo! I always fear if I didn't get it out of my system then I'd be messing up the fine motorcars we own today - and that'd be a shame.

 

 

Anybody following this thread still cares about the "currently proposed" RVGS fate or are we all waiting for the "I told you so" moment?

 

My interest in RVGS was culled at the kickstarter start. It became something that didn't match my wants and needs. I'm along for the drama. Taking both the good and bad posts in stride.

 

 

But let's keep in mind that Kevtris' plausible dream of creating something that people actually want could be jeopardized by a "high-profile silicon valley" law firm.

 

It could be a bluff but if it's true just stop and think for a moment about that. They plan on taking money from people in this community and will then proceed to screw the same community that backed them. They want to prevent this community from having an open market on homebrew hardware so how could anyone possibly think that they are on our side at this point. It seems that these delusions of grandeur manifesting in Mike's quest for success is getting the better of his judgement and possibly his sanity. If he plans to pursue his dream any further he will need to hire outside PR and step out of the public light for a while. There's no way his reputation could recover enough at this point to gain 2mil worth of trust.

 

Could be. But I don't think so. Exactly how would that work? What would be their leverage and point of contention? But in counterpoint, I never put anything past a marketing guy. Trust them even less. And I gladly hire a buffer between myself and them.

 

 

 

Agreed albert. It's only speculation at this point and nothing more. They may only be name-dropping the use of their lawyer to try and give credibility to their project at this point, as something unique, innovative, crafted and worthwhile.

 

Edit: They might not achieve this goal, but they are clearly trying to project this

 

As someone who does litigation for a living, it's best to stick to certainty. If they patent-litigate hobbyists and innovators against producing their creations, I will be the first to slam them, but at this stage it's best to stick to what has actually occurred, rather than try to predict or project what is going through the minds of that team.

 

I know many people that would do this. Have done this, out of spite. One of them right now has tallied a 4 million dollar legal bill.

[Keatah]

I can't believe how this has spiraled down! I know that hating on it may be causing some of this, but it couldn't be the primary detractor! The reason for wanting cartridges is obvious! They last for a LOOOOOONG TIME, and they usually don't have load times or need moving parts to work! Solid state is better (usually)! I want this to be real and believed it completely!! That being said...

 

The one major downfall of cartridges is that they can still be destroyed/lost through various actions beyond your control. Fire, theft, flood. With digital distribution and emulation you do not have that issue. And with emulation you can make a backup. Several people on AA have had such experiences including myself. The cult that got a hold of some of mine has got to make for a good story, but nowhere near as "important" as this RVGS drama. So I defer..

 

 

[..]

I don't see why they would want to make adapters to play existing 'retro' games when the 'retro' audience is likely already doing that with their 'retro' systems! I play Genesis games on my Genesis, etc. I liked the idea of playing a modern 'retro' style game on a cartridge.

 

Now they look a lot like they are just competing with the Retron5 or one of these dye-drop FPGA famiclones and 'possibly' bringing the 'retro' style games out for the system itself. When they started asking for $350 and for THREE F*CKING MILLION I got spindizzy!

[..]

 

I personally dislike all this neo-nuvo-retro styling. And there is a totally valid reason for wanting new hardware - the original hardware made in the 70's - 90's isn't going to last forever. Already gamers are modding their consoles to new video standards so they work with modern displays.

[tcdev]

...also the core in a cart adapter is not really patentable because the MVS MagicKey for AES does exactly that.

There's an FPGA inside those babies and they are reporgrammable (via USB/special connectors in the cart) and said core is in a cart adapter (MVS to AES), actually there's 2 of them but nevermind.

 

Initially they seemed to be talking about storing the FPGA bitstream for the emulation core in the cartridge, which makes perfect sense to me. But that's not an FPGA, simply a SPI flash device that configures the core of the FPGA on the motherboard.

 

Then when they mentioned an FPGA on the cartridge itself for emulation, I started to doubt the competence of these guys. The cartridge I/O just isn't set up for that - you'd have the cartridge directly driving the video DAC's for example - plus it's stupidly expensive. It would just never be designed that way. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was a marketing guy getting his wires crossed.

 

FTR, the MVS->AES adapters have CPLD's which implement a relatively simple parallel-to-serial converter for the sprite ROM, no more. The only tricky bit is getting the synchronisation right for the serial stream. No need for an FPGA in there, and certainly not worthy of being called a "core".

[sh3-rg]

From what I could gather it was never supposed to play older carts, but rather would play popular modern games that are made in the 'retro' (term is getting beaten to death) style on cartridges that would last forever for $180! I LOVED the idea and I don't give a crap if there are a couple of bugs in the game or if it never gets updated!

 

Really? Not playing older carts themselves is spot-on, but it was definitely stated to play games targeted to those old systems, but through their own cartridges that also contained the necessary software to reconfigure their FPGA to act as the console in question (see Parrothead's post of Woita's words).

 

They also planned their own core that appeared to be some kind of fantasy 16-bit console kind of thing maybe, which could have been fun for some with the right tools.

 

Popular modern games in a retro style - that started getting mentioned around 3 months later and is where they're concentrating now is seems, but with cart adapters for unspecified old consoles to allow those to be used, and modern homebrews, on the system as well.

 

I WANT this system for games like Gunlord and Tiny Knight, NOT for playing NES or Genesis games! I WANT this system to be real but I think they just shot themselves in the foot BIGTIME!!

 

Ummm.. that's pretty much what they're saying it will be, new pixel-style games on cart, but more like the kind of stuff you'd find on steam or other digital outlets. Maybe you should go back their campaign and alert any like-minded friends you may have to do the same. Or maybe you want Neo Geo (Gunlord) and SNES (Tiny Knight originally) homebrews/indies, in which case those platforms would do you?

 

Then when they mentioned an FPGA on the cartridge itself for emulation, I started to doubt the competence of these guys. The cartridge I/O just isn't set up for that - you'd have the cartridge directly driving the video DAC's for example - plus it's stupidly expensive. It would just never be designed that way. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was a marketing guy getting his wires crossed.

 

Wut? That was never a plan, was it? How much would those carts be to create, before they even considered taking their cut and the devs' cut? That must have been crossed wires.

Edited September 27, 2015 by sh3-rg

[tcdev]

There is no need to worry about patents or a law firm hurting to someone who would like to do something similar. Things like this, including the one that kevtris is working on - an FPGA-based board capable to emulate a number of retro systems - has been done by many people since late 90s. Sprinter 97, One Chip MSX, C-One, Minimig, Reverse U16 (linked as an example of recent project, to see what other people actually doing now), and many more, just difficult to recall them all.

 

Agreed. The whole patent thing is either absolute self-delusion or a cover story for why the case had to be on the 'prototype' in the video. They not doing anything patentable.

 

I can add MCC, Turbo Chameleon 64, Mist, Suska III and Replay to your list.

[PlaysWithWolves]

First off, Kevin has an incredible amount of prior art at this point, given the demonstrable work he's done specifically with his FPGA boards and cores. Second, can you imagine the backlash if someone did attempt to strangle his development due to a patent (or patents?) I for one would not support any individual or company who used patents in this manner in our hobby. I have no idea what specifically the Retro VGS team is actually trying to patent, if anything at all. I can't imagine there's enough money in this to either try to stifle competition making a similar console (and one that actually somehow infringes on whatever patents they may ultimately receive, again, if any), or to even try and get patents in the first place (which is a very time consuming and expensive process). Not something I would worry about at this time.

 

..Al

 

There may be more patents, but AFAIK the only time they actually mentioned them was at Game On Expo in late August. Carlsen talks about the proprietary cartridge interface and at a bit after 0:25:10 says, "I'm actually hoping we'll pursue a little bit of patent protection on this. I'm already listing out a number of claims for our patent attorney."

 

 

 

Agreed...this is not a critique of the guy editing the podcast, but the interview is going towards irrelevance. Actually, I am not sure if I am going to listen to it now - it's old news. This thread and Youtube videos moves way faster. When your troops have deciphered the codes, the war is already over.

 

/Nicholas

 

I'll still watch, but I hope triverse doesn't take too much longer to get the video out.

That it's apparently almost ninety minutes long is disheartening. I just hope it isn't sixty minutes of hearing Kennedy speak and twenty minutes or so of everyone else.