How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[Greg2600]

Pretty sure that second quote is about us (Digital Eclipse/Other Ocean). We never agreed to any kind of partnership, but I wouldn't exactly say this is misleading either, as we told Mike and Steve that we're totally open to providing software support if and when the numbers make sense (aka, we have reason to believe we'll make money). We gave them some ideas for cool things to do and wished them luck, is how I remember it going down.

 

Just wanted to throw that out there because while I think this campaign had a lot of issues, I have never believed Mike to be a scammer or an outright liar, and it's kind of upsetting to see people take that stance.

 

Appreciate you chiming in! Mike is the over-exuberant salesman, and he over exaggerated developer support, financial backers, who was on his team, prospective features, the whole nine yards. Didn't lie, but definitely exaggerated what was on the drawing board, and what was signed and concrete. I never felt he was being deceptive, he was being too much of a cheerleader. Mike gets really passionate about this stuff, but without a buffer or anyone to keep him in check, he's flies off the handle. That's what led to his over reactions to criticism, fair or unfair. Unfortunately I think his partners also didn't investigate Mike's sales pitch quite enough either. They gauged dev supporters, and stuff like that, and sure developers were interested. They failed to rationally determine whether this could actually be profitable. They failed to do a proper study on just what kind of audience there was for this machine. Mike is a fanboy, but nobody with RVGS attempted to bring him down to earth.

[CPUWIZ]

Kevtris owes Mike a apology..

 

[PlaysWithWolves]

I don't know if Mike Kennedy is a liar, but I do know that he's at least 99% the reason some people think he's a liar.

[PlaysWithWolves]

Somebody figured out social media:

Steve Woita Thanks for being patient as we work on getting the cost down. This whole process is very complex on many levels. Game-wise, our goal is still the same, to get original titles on our console and to build a console that’s fun to make games on for indie and other game developers. All I ever wanted in this console is to be able to continue to make games that would not rely on updates and would work decades later. We can’t thank you enough for all of your support! Thanks for hanging in there!

8 · 57 mins

[Chak]

Been reading this for a while, will likely go back to lurking after venting here. From the FAQ on their website:

 

What’s going on under the hood?
(Steve Woita) Think of it as hardware that is reconfigurable by the cartridge. The RETRO VGS will have its own cool configurations (ways to make a game), and it can also be hardware-configured to be other old-school architectures that a lot of developers are used to developing for. Specifically, and at this current time, it’s an FPGA and ARM system. If a developer wants to make a Neo Geo game, they would include an HDL (Hardware Description Language) file that configures the FPGA to operate like a Neo Geo. The developer would code their game to run against the Neo Geo platform. This HDL code along with the actual Neo Geo game will be on the cartridge. Once that cartridge is placed in the RETRO VGS, it will become a Neo Geo and play that game. So in this case, the language is: 68000 and Z80 code. If you wanted to do a new Atari 2600 styled game, you'd include a 2600 HDL file that configures the FPGA to replicate the logic of the original 2600 hardware and then you'd include your new 2600 game on that cartridge too. These two files are then paired up on the cartridge and when plugged into the RETRO VGS, will turn the console into a 2600. So the language that would be used in this case is: 6507 (6502 with less address space). Does that help explain things a little "bit" more? Oh and we’ll have a nice little ARM chip for some more fun stuff. We'll be supplying the validated cores for developers to choose from and you don't have to know how to program an FPGA to make a game, it just gives us a lot of hardware flexibility, I didn't want to lock us in to a specific ASIC design.

 

 

OK, so the Neo Geo line is misleading as we don't know of any working Neo Geo FPGA core. Fair enough. But the point is they completely reversed what they proposed in the above quoted FAQ section. The ARM chip was just there "for some more fun stuff" and it became the entire reason for the system. I'm sure nobody wants my advice for the relaunch, but here it is:

 

1> Put the best possible FPGA as your base, something that should be capable of, at a minimum, duplicating a Neo Geo.

 

2> Upgrade the ARM as a stretch goal - remember the good FPGA is there so a weak ARM coupled with a strong customizable FPGA should provide plenty of computing power for new game development. Hell, maybe you can us a HDL to have the FPGA act as an ARM giving you, in effect, an asymmetric Multi-CPU setup. Or use the ARM as a CPU and dedicate the FPGA as a GPU. I'm not a hardware engineer, but I'm sure it can work. Presumably you're going for classic-style games: NES Zelda as opposed to Wii Zelda, 16-bit Castlevania vs PS2 Castlevania, Contra vs Call of Duty. You can't compete with the modern 3D stuff, so don't try.

 

3> Keep the 9-pin controller ports.

 

4> Have a retro-style joystick. Some of us aren't huge fans of joypads (I can and do use them, but I still like my CX-40), and I doubt I would have much interest in any game that needs ALL the functionality on their controller. Which means it's too complicated and I would get aggravated playing Space Invaders on the system because there are too many buttons. I'm not saying to ditch their prototype controller, but add something simpler, even it it's using "arcade quality microswitches" and costs more, I (and I'm sure others) would prefer classic style controllers.

 

5> Cartridge adapters would be great, and since Kevtris would charge for his cores, add them as stretch goals. Otherwise they will become available "at a later time as market forces permit."

 

Personally, there are many systems I don't own, and don't really have the room for. It's kind of hard to justify buying a 7800 or Intellivision just to play Impossible Mission or B-52 bomber.

 

As for the 800 Lb gorilla in the room - Kevtris' proposed system - I like it. If he (or someone else) can provide "USB-to-you name it controller" adapters, I'd likely be in. Unlike RVGS, Kevtris seems to have kept his idea stable. With Cartridge adapters it's a good system for those who would want it.

 

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

Interesting idea but piss poor execution. It started simple at a decent estimated launch price then they wanted to add more and more. eventually the increase in console price, a unrealistic funding goal and mostly lack of communication between Mike and the rest of the team. Add to all of that no real prototype, vague information at best and instead of providing any solid details or info to those who raised any valid concerns or critiques Mike chose to simply categorize everyone as haters, trolls and people who for some unknown reason were simply not on board with his Retro Gaming Dream. No, they did it to themselves, smoke and mirrors and promises and asking backers to "keep the faith" is asking too much these days imho. Personally I would love to see a new modern console that plays retro games on cartridges BUT the idea of playing INDIE and RETRO LIKE games that would require cartridges that cost a premium over buying the same titles that are downloadable, at lower cost from STEAM or on other current consoles was not sitting well for me. YES the feel of cartridges, the labels, manuals, packaging and the feeling that the game is something tangible is very nice especially for the market they are catering to but in order to expect people to pay a premium for that they would need to offer something more like original and exclusive games as well offering the main console at a realistic price point for what it is. I think MIKE simply got a little too hungry and things evolved into far more than what it simply should have been, keep it simple, keep it competitively priced and offer something I cannot get elsewhere especially if you are going to demand a higher cost to have the games on cart.

[triverse]

The thing is, Nintendo didn't start with the Super Nintendo. They launched the NES which was more economical at the time (there were plenty of 16-Bit CPU's available at about this time that could do A LOT more than the 8-Bit NES CPU but they weren't economical and Nintendo knew this). Sega didn't start with the Saturn. They all started with what they could get at a price that people would pay. Personally, I think the RETRO VGS team ended up trying to jump past that first generation of hardware and go straight to the "cooler" 2nd generation platform (and the price that comes with).

 

The original $100 or so system that was touted for a long time was their "1st gen" system. They dropped that at some point and we got the $300+ RETRO VGS. As Mike said in my interview, http://retrogamingmagazine.com/2015/09/27/rgm-interview-with-retro-vgs-team-unofficial-copy-from-audio-interview/, they need to crawl before they walk.

[tcdev]

"made some adjustments to our hardware team" - not "additions" to the hardware team? Sounds like someone has either jumped ship, or been let go!?!

 

"We will also be lowering the price while maintaining most of the cool features you all want." Is this an admission the the 1st design was rubbish? How do you magically reduce the price without losing features?

 

Of course, parting shots of a marketer should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

For me, I think he's done his dash. I wouldn't feel confident that any team he has assembled will produce what they promise. Not saying that won't produce something, but it won't be what they set out to do.

 

I too personally hope that Kevtris doesn't have anything to do with these guys. Only because I can see his work being diluted and nobbled in the process. But I also understand that if someone is throwing money at you for something you've already worked hard for on your own dime, it's difficult to turn your back, especially if it's unlikely to happen again. I'd rather see him produce his own hardware, with him calling the shots, even if that means it won't come in a shiny Jaguar case.

[Gentlegamer]

[Pixelboy]

I too personally hope that Kevtris doesn't have anything to do with these guys. Only because I can see his work being diluted and nobbled in the process. But I also understand that if someone is throwing money at you for something you've already worked hard for on your own dime, it's difficult to turn your back, especially if it's unlikely to happen again. I'd rather see him produce his own hardware, with him calling the shots, even if that means it won't come in a shiny Jaguar case.

I'm sure Kevtris has LOTS of options available to him for turning his FPGA console prototype into a product released in sufficient quantities to satisfy the "niche demand" of retrogamers. He doesn't need Mike and his crew to make it happen.

[Draikar]

I just want to say I don't work for the VGS team, I been a member at Atariage before all this. Some of my post that were posted on there Facebook were my topics I deleted and as you know when you delete a post all the replies are deleted . As for the wiki post I was angry and took my anger at the wiki post and deleted them, I'm sorry and I stopped doing that. As for my post here are after they posted and nothing before they made there post. As to kevtris well I know he is a good man and I was quick to judge and for that I'm sorry. Im happy to be a member here and so on... Last post on this, only real retro systems like the 2600 and NES for me. Sorry.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Draikar

[sh3-rg]

I just want to say I don't work for the VGS team, I been a member at Atariage before all this. Some of my post that were posted on there Facebook were my topics I deleted and as you know when you delete a post all the replies are deleted . As for the wiki post I was angry and took my anger at the wiki post and deleted them, I'm sorry and I stopped doing that. As for my post here are after they posted and nothing before they made there post. As to kevtris well I know he is a good man and I was quick to judge and for that I'm sorry. Im happy to be a member here and so on... Last post on this, only real retro systems like the 2600 and NES for me. Sorry.

 

That can't have been easy, most people would have melted back into the bushes like Homer. Something to be said for that at least.

 

Or, cheeky cynical mode on, can we expect to see kevtris reinstated as a member of the team if Florida's "unofficial" RVGS PR machine is now OK with him?

Edited September 29, 2015 by sh3-rg

[Gentlegamer]

Here's a preview of the next version

 

[kevtris]

I just don't like Kevtris, its nothing personal I just don't like him. Kinda hard to explain.

 

It's telling that you had to edit at least two of your posts saying you don't like me. Why is that? And why's it hard to explain? 'cause I get stuff done or because I tried to crush the Retroland dreams during development by saying stuff was too expensive and nonviable in the marketplace?

 

Re: Retroland, every time I see that I think of that "Carpetland USA" commercial's jingle.

 

Retroland USA! <do do dooo>

 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/XXgpQEOc6mE"frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Draikar]

Here's a preview of the next version

 

 

NOT FUNNY, I would by that too !!!!

[Draikar]

 

It's telling that you had to edit at least two of your posts saying you don't like me. Why is that? And why's it hard to explain? 'cause I get stuff done or because I tried to crush the Retroland dreams during development by saying stuff was too expensive and nonviable in the marketplace?

 

Re: Retroland, every time I see that I think of that "Carpetland USA" commercial's jingle.

 

Retroland USA! <do do dooo>

 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/XXgpQEOc6mE"frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

From what was told to me, its like that thing "lines in the sand" "we make are mark and stand by it", I'm sorry.

[kevtris]

(from the fb post)

 

The good news is we aren’t giving up and have made some adjustments to our hardware team, which includes the involvement of other hardware gurus who were part of our venture in the very beginning. We will also be lowering the price while maintaining most of the cool features you all want.

 

I wonder what adjustments to their 'team' (as far as I know, the hardware team is just 1 guy) will be? I have not been contacted and I will not work on this project for them, especially since I won't get paid unless it's funded, and because I don't want to work for free so someone else can make potentially a lot of money off my work, with me seeing a relative pittance.

 

If I'm going to work on something of this magnitude, it's going to be on my own terms, my way. I will still license my cores to them, but I doubt they will want to pay my fees for them. After all, they can just go to the Core Store and pick up a few. I'm not the only game in town.

 

The plans to work on my Zimba 3000 hasn't changed and I still plan on doing it. I got a lot of work ahead though to come up with something I think is viable to sell for a reasonable price.

 

One good thing that's come of this huge debacle though is a bunch of old friends I haven't talked to emailed me about it in the last week or so. That was awesome :-)

[sh3-rg]

After all, they can just go to the Core Store and pick up a few. I'm not the only game in town.

 

[AtariTexas]

I just want to say I don't work for the VGS team, I been a member at Atariage before all this. Some of my post that were posted on there Facebook were my topics I deleted and as you know when you delete a post all the replies are deleted . As for the wiki post I was angry and took my anger at the wiki post and deleted them, I'm sorry and I stopped doing that. As for my post here are after they posted and nothing before they made there post. As to kevtris well I know he is a good man and I was quick to judge and for that I'm sorry. Im happy to be a member here and so on... Last post on this, only real retro systems like the 2600 and NES for me. Sorry.

Is your name really Roberta or was I catfished ?

[kevtris]

Been reading this for a while, will likely go back to lurking after venting here. From the FAQ on their website:

 

 

OK, so the Neo Geo line is misleading as we don't know of any working Neo Geo FPGA core. Fair enough. But the point is they completely reversed what they proposed in the above quoted FAQ section. The ARM chip was just there "for some more fun stuff" and it became the entire reason for the system. I'm sure nobody wants my advice for the relaunch, but here it is:

 

 

The neo geo thing I'm pretty sure is from when I discussed with them about how my "top end" spec core for my existing proto board was designed to be capable of running neo geo. I made it very clear that 16 bit cores didn't exist at this point, and wouldn't for a while yet. Mike asked me how long it'd take to make a core for 16 bit (SNES, Genny, neogeo) and I said "6 months, maybe". I can't really give a firm time estimate though. I can probably get something working and playing games relatively quick, a few weeks to a month or two but after that comes the "long tail" of bugs and things to fix.

[Draikar]

(from the fb post)

 

I wonder what adjustments to their 'team' (as far as I know, the hardware team is just 1 guy) will be? I have not been contacted and I will not work on this project for them, especially since I won't get paid unless it's funded, and because I don't want to work for free so someone else can make potentially a lot of money off my work, with me seeing a relative pittance.

 

If I'm going to work on something of this magnitude, it's going to be on my own terms, my way. I will still license my cores to them, but I doubt they will want to pay my fees for them. After all, they can just go to the Core Store and pick up a few. I'm not the only game in town.

 

The plans to work on my Zimba 3000 hasn't changed and I still plan on doing it. I got a lot of work ahead though to come up with something I think is viable to sell for a reasonable price.

 

One good thing that's come of this huge debacle though is a bunch of old friends I haven't talked to emailed me about it in the last week or so. That was awesome :-)

I think they will contact you with a license, I don't work for them but it just I think they will and also "strip" this system to the point that I will not work with them and the money I get refunded will go to a neo geo omega system but there are so many pirate carts on ebay and the neo geo games that were to be on this RVG system will "i think" stripped to low quality.. Im still a fan but I feel f**k and now I can't post what I know because my info is no more, I also don't like the post they made and it was deleted since it was part of my post but some one here seen it posted it i think.. Im not happy I wanted to make games and I guess I will do it the old way and have it on Atariage carts but the games I wanted to make were a mix of Commodore / apple and not atari 2600 code.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Draikar

[Draikar]

Is your name really Roberta or was I catfished ?

IM Roberta...

[SumerNivek]

(from the fb post)

 

I wonder what adjustments to their 'team' (as far as I know, the hardware team is just 1 guy) will be? I have not been contacted and I will not work on this project for them, especially since I won't get paid unless it's funded, and because I don't want to work for free so someone else can make potentially a lot of money off my work, with me seeing a relative pittance.

 

If I'm going to work on something of this magnitude, it's going to be on my own terms, my way. I will still license my cores to them, but I doubt they will want to pay my fees for them. After all, they can just go to the Core Store and pick up a few. I'm not the only game in town.

 

The plans to work on my Zimba 3000 hasn't changed and I still plan on doing it. I got a lot of work ahead though to come up with something I think is viable to sell for a reasonable price.

 

One good thing that's come of this huge debacle though is a bunch of old friends I haven't talked to emailed me about it in the last week or so. That was awesome :-)

Yes, the way they worded the announcement this morning, I immediately thought Carlsen was "pushed out" or asked to leave and that they brought you back in the fold with some whirlwind deal that happened last night. Now that you confirmed that you were not contacted and Pipercub has said he is also not "in," I wonder what the "adjustment" to the hardware team is?

 

Someone asked earlier in the thread who everyone thought would be the first one to leave the project. After seeing the announcement, I wonder if it is Carlsen who left? Just got the feeling that he and Steve did not really see eye-to-eye based on the interviews put out by RGR and Triverse...John seemed to blow off Steve's explanations and thoughts, and Steve would pick up on it and throw it back in his face in a good natured manner. I don't know, I am probably misunderstanding their demeanors during the two interviews I heard, but it did seem that John and Steve have some kind of rift...especially since Steve is the one commenting on their Facebook page and not John currently (i.e. the exact opposite of this weekend).

[Andromeda Stardust]

#1: Shut down the IndieGoGo,

#2: Admit "we scewed up" and misjudged the market, and

#3: apologize to the community and fans you have insulted

#4: get your !@#$% together and figure out what it is you want to do, and lastly,

#5: let us know when you have a working prototype.

Finally, some common sense comes out of Mike. I feel like he has finally read my post and conceded to the voice of reason...

Edited September 29, 2015 by stardust4ever

[Draikar]

Yes, the way they worded the announcement this morning, I immediately thought Carlsen was "pushed out" or asked to leave and that they brought you back in the fold with some whirlwind deal that happened last night. Now that you confirmed that you were not contacted and Pipercub has said he is also not "in," I wonder what the "adjustment" to the hardware team is?

 

Someone asked earlier in the thread who everyone thought would be the first one to leave the project. After seeing the announcement, I wonder if it is Carlsen who left? Just got the feeling that he and Steve did not really see eye-to-eye based on the interviews put out by RGR and Triverse...John seemed to blow off Steve's explanations and thoughts, and Steve would pick up on it and throw it back in his face in a good natured manner. I don't know, I am probably misunderstanding their demeanors during the two interviews I heard, but it did seem that John and Steve have some kind of rift...especially since Steve is the one commenting on their Facebook page and not John currently (i.e. the exact opposite of this weekend).

The level of my anger is more then my post on there face book about atariage, fu*king loyalty is everything, this is news I don't like. I don't care if you hate him but shit not cool !!!!