phoenixdownita Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) "cartridge interface patents" only means that in order to develop for it you're going to need to pay them! That for sure helps the small studios but they are not catering to them anymore. Edited September 3, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 "cartridge interface patents" only means that in order to develop for it you're going to need to pay them! That for sure helps the small studios but they are not catering at them anymore. In this modern world, if the creator doesn't patent it a patent troll will. Since the above statement about John Carlsen was just my own observation about an off-the-cuff statement, I'll also add that Mike Kennedy looked hesitant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) I don't know man, they say no OS, all open source tools, they have designed no special parts, likely all the cores they are talking about are from someone else, geez the FPGA is not designed by them and neither is the ARM. In the end all it's going to be is a bunch of off-the-shelf parts thrown together .... oh well if it wasn't for the BIOS that's like the old IBM PC XT .... nothing special really. Edited September 3, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I find the naysayers and people complaining about the $400 price point comical. They're the ones spending upwards of $200 anyways on cartridges that sit around and collect dust most of the time. Just as ridiculous as the people complaining about those collectors. If $400 is what it takes to make a quality system with loads of versatility then so be it. In any case, though, this console like many other will be terribly underutilized. Developers are going to be blinded by having to reaching an audience as cost-effectively as possible. Games will have to be re-written in a high enough langauge; so high that cycles will be wasted doing interpretation from one level to the next. For example, just imagine how much better Colecovision games would be *if* those developers would push the hardware like they did (and do now) on the VCS and other limited systems. The size of the VCS doesn't allow for any fat. In complete contrast, modern game systems and mobile are nothing but filler material. Empty calories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I wonder how long before an FPGA appears in a Raspberry Pi 2 hat format .... at say 50US$ .... that would be the day. 35US$ for RPi2 + 50US$ for FPGA hat + 10US$ case + 20US$ XBOX360 wired ctrl + 5 US$ power brick I know I know it's not as easy as throwing an FPGA in the mix, the interconnect is important but the point stays, I am pretty sure the RPi guys would love to help for a "RPi3 with FPGA" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) I think the correct implementation of an FPGA in that form would be to have the chip built in to the ARM itself. Intel is doing a little bit of experimenting around with it in their new Skylake chips, in that different parts of the graphics core can be assigned programmable compute functions, and the output of one core goes to the next. It's a stretch, but its a start. Added: With today's instant fab capability, there is no limit really. Just yours and the developer's imaginations. Edited September 3, 2015 by Keatah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) Just to state the obvious but for big enough FPGA there are options for both a soft-core and hard-core ARM in it both of course superceeded by SOCs in which what is what does not matter .... but we are just talking so. Examples: http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/soc.html https://www.altera.com/products/fpga/arria-series/arria-v/overview.html https://www.altera.com/products/fpga/arria-series/arria-10/overview.html Edited September 3, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Mike cross-posted his earlier post Facebook as an official announcement: https://www.facebook.com/RETROVGS/posts/873452596057345:0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 LoL, now the cartridge adapters made some or many turn and think "maybe I will" support it, the next debate is the price of the adapters ??? I do know if the price adapters are good people will buy them and its easy for the to make cartridge adapters 16-bit ones In the back of their heads those prospective customers were wondering what-how-if this system would play real retrogames and not the mobile posers being made today. The word "retro" implies somehow that it would do something like that. And as soon as classic was mentioned that immediately made people think that somehow old games would work. Now we know. As long as these adapters are under $100 price point that's great. As long as they are nice and tight like the wife at the gym, great. I don't want no ratty, electrically noisy, intermittent contraption like a Colecovision with the VCS expansion module. Or that 2-meter-long TI desk sprawl. Between that, and slack power adapter plug and sloppy on/off switch it'd be a wonder to finish a run in Dragster without something going wonky. I would even collect them, if this system dose well you NEED to make "limited edition" adapters for less known systems like US sega master system AND Japan sega sg-1000 / mark iii systems and sega card catcher too, again "limited edition" after "if" your system makes it. You could build a market on that too. I don't think I will use them but i will buy them, if your system dose well I would be more into that then system colors unless you make a wood grain color version system. I personally wouldn't bother baggie-chasing after limited edition systems or carts or parts. That's just me. It's like with the Bill Blass Lincoln cars. All it was was some paint and adhesive badges. Or same shit with like those LE/SE/GT "variants" of mediocre cars GM sold in the mid-80's. But the price increase as you moved up toward the GT wasn't mediocre. And when that got old they made SSE and GTE. No thanks. It's all been through the junkyard and recycled already. With 3D printing expected to become a working consumer product in 2018, It'd be cool for them to sell just the inside electronics and send you a file that you could modify and print yourself a console. I don't know man, they say no OS, all open source tools, they have designed no special parts, likely all the cores they are talking about are from someone else, geez the FPGA is not designed by them and neither is the ARM. Well why is that a detractor? FPGAs in consumer products and even technical test instrumentation are almost always off the shelf. Absolutely ZERO need to make a custom iteration. Why? What special things would "your" chip do that you couldn't get off-the-shelf? And furthermore a set of custom chips would add to the price point, something everyone has complained about already. Don't wanna make that any worse, now, do we? As a matter of fact, the biggest users of custom gate arrays would be aerospace and defense contractors. They make their own because of reliability and speed requirements. And Altera and Xilinx make enough variety for the consumer space. A custom gate array would be mostly redundant. Dare I say pointless for a cheap toy? ..likely all the cores they are talking about are from someone else.. I could be mistaken, but I believe they said that at some point. And all you really need is one 6502 core for example. As long as it does a 6502 there is no problem. And there's nothing to say one of these cores can't be modified into like a 32-bit 6502, if that's something someone wants to do. An open operating-systemless console is cool thing. That means no updates. No incentive for lazy ass developers to use "built-in sprites" so to speak. Imagine how shitty VCS games would look if developers had to use built-in firmware routines. So if you end up buying a lame game you can blame the game maker directly. They were probably lame in taking the time to make it cool anyways. ..they have designed no special parts..the FPGA is not designed by them and neither is the ARM. In the end all it's going to be is a bunch of off-the-shelf parts thrown together. Neither was the Apple II packed with custom parts. A bunch of TTL chips were wired up and that was that. Presto! Instant hit, industry changer, and a useful life of over a decade. Systems built around custom parts are more difficult to redesign to "version 2.0" in 5 years. With off-the-shelf parts you can typically get faster, better, cheaper, iterations down the road that are compatible. Think PC vs. Amiga. The PC's architecture was so damned open it could adapt to any requirement and speed upgrade. Compare against Amiga. There was only so fast you were going to push those custom bus arbitrators and parasites. To upgrade in speed, you'd need to redesign them. Not an easy task. And terribly costly. Might as well just design a whole new system. Remember the VCS had no bios. Each game developer makes their own "bios". Their own kernel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I wonder how long before an FPGA appears in a Raspberry Pi 2 hat format .... at say 50US$ .... that would be the day. 35US$ for RPi2 + 50US$ for FPGA hat + 10US$ case + 20US$ XBOX360 wired ctrl + 5 US$ power brick I know I know it's not as easy as throwing an FPGA in the mix, the interconnect is important but the point stays, I am pretty sure the RPi guys would love to help for a "RPi3 with FPGA" The FPGA board could plug directly onto the GPIO port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I find the naysayers and people complaining about the $400 price point comical. They're the ones spending upwards of $200 anyways on cartridges that sit around and collect dust most of the time. Just as ridiculous as the people complaining about those collectors. If $400 is what it takes to make a quality system with loads of versatility then so be it. In any case, though, this console like many other will be terribly underutilized. Developers are going to be blinded by having to reaching an audience as cost-effectively as possible. Games will have to be re-written in a high enough langauge; so high that cycles will be wasted doing interpretation from one level to the next. For example, just imagine how much better Colecovision games would be *if* those developers would push the hardware like they did (and do now) on the VCS and other limited systems. The size of the VCS doesn't allow for any fat. In complete contrast, modern game systems and mobile are nothing but filler material. Empty calories. Sure, when you've got a sloucher job with $40+ /hr salary. A days wages for this thing is easy peazy. Most of us have to work a bit harder to buy one of these however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 As long as these adapters are under $100 price point that's great Sure, who wouldn't want to pay $100 for $1.25 of plastic and metal... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 The FPGA board could plug directly onto the GPIO port. Can the GPIO port handle data fast enough to make that a worthwhile add-on module? Maybe a more direct connection needs to be made. I'm sorry I don't know much about the R Pi that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Sure, who wouldn't want to pay $100 for $1.25 of plastic and metal... In the videogame collecting business that sort of stupidity is expected from typical collectors. Everyone knows that. You do. I do. And ebay proves it. There's going to need to be some method to do the Difficulty, B/W, Select, and Reset switches if you're doing the VCS. And I believe/assume they are putting the core software on the adapter. So you need a PCB with electronics on it. A "system changer" of a sort. They'd be pretty dumb to build-in all the cores into the console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) Bah ... a cheap ARM + FPGA from Altera is 75US$, single core, 25K LE: http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/partsearch.dll?Detail&name=544-3009-ND This one at 137US$ dual core and 40K LE: http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/partsearch.dll?Detail&name=5CSEBA4U23C6N-ND The FPGA board could plug directly onto the GPIO port. Assuming the interconnect allows efficient access to the media processor (VideoCore IV) then yes, it's perfect. If not there's going to be copies etc... still plenty to emulate old clunkers. Honestly the echange ARM <-> FPGA on the RPi even if via mem is plentiful for sure. Edited September 3, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 One good thin is that companies are gonna be forced to do quality control once again. You can't patch a cartridge once it's sold. Or, maybe, you can. With some gymnastics. Send it back for re-flashing if it's flashrom. Or re-writing if it's a microdrive (god help us then!). You could even develop a small re-programming pass-through adapter that connects the cart to a computer and flash it yourself. Or connect RVGS to the computer or directly to the internet. I'm just blowing smoke there. I don't want cartridge updatability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Or, maybe, you can. With some gymnastics. Send it back for re-flashing if it's flashrom. I can do that with most of the 2600 games I am selling. ..Al 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Bah ... a cheap ARM + FPGA from Altera is 75US$, single core, 25K LE: http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/partsearch.dll?Detail&name=544-3009-ND This one at 137US$ dual core and 40K LE: http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/partsearch.dll?Detail&name=5CSEBA4U23C6N-ND IDK.. 40K LE is rather weak. What you want is a +500k array integrated into a modern-day x86 chip. Now that Intel owns Altera that's exactly what they plan on for release in 2017. Except that Intel has minimal influence in the mobile space. Which is where all the consumer innovations happen now, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) The RVGS has declared 49K LE so I got something in the ballpark .... dude help me here!!! I was trying to disprove how extremely expensive this is supposed to be. Also I keep on popping veins!!! Edited September 3, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Nobody is going to give you 3 million dollars EVER. Everyone mind you would rather have a PS4 instead of investing in this ridiculous pipe dream called the Retro POS. 'Course not. Not any one investor. Maybe collectively they'll get even more. There's a lot of forward looking tech in here. Just wait till the official announcement. I have avoided buying a Wii U, or any late-model XBOX or PS specifically, exclusively, because of the internet connectivity requirements and the fact that they will fail to operate due to artificially imposed limitations - like when the games are taken off market or a server becomes unreachable. People that know me know I completely abhor DLC and games that require patching over the internet. Not only that, optical and mechanical storage is so 1990's. Semiconductor memory slacked for a while in density, but that hasn't been true in a long time. I think we all just need to wait and see what they can offer and deliver. We should all go back to the 1970's and be kids again and not play armchair product directors. By all the difference of opinion it is clear NO ONE knows what they're talking about when it comes to specifics. And (you're) not conducting the project anyways. Back in the 1970's we'd see a tv ad. Maybe read a paragraph in a catalog and then pester mom and dad till they got us an Intellivision or VCS. We didn't know or care what was inside. We just wanted one. And we had faith the cardboard box with the console in it would bring all sorts of goodness. Back in the 70's we weren't privy to all this noise and differing viewpoints, which currently/immediately seem to be brewing up a storm regarding this console. This melting pot of noise will be simmered down in a few weeks, and then you can watch the kickstarter numbers rise like the stock market! Or remain stillborn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 The RVGS has declared 49K LE so I got something in the ballpark .... dude help me here!!! I was trying to disprove how extremely expensive this is supposed to be. I had my datacenter hat on. 50K elements is probably alright for a toy. Where did they say the spec? I must have missed it. Also I keep on popping veins!!! Bloodletting! Drain that evil out of you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) The Mist project ( https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki) is based on a CycloneIII EP3C25E144 ( https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki/mist13_schematic.pdf and https://www.altera.com/content/dam/altera-www/global/en_US/pdfs/literature/hb/cyc3/cyc3_ciii51001.pdf ) which is around 50US$ (if I can read Altera pricing that is, just search for EP3C25E144 at http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/partsearch.dll?KeywordSearch ) and the Mist guys managed to support a few 16 bits system with "only" 25K LE. Side note: we are talking about a Video Game System .... retro or not obviously it is a toy, their spec is at http://www.retrovgs.com/f.a.q..html just read up to the "system spec" ... work with me here!!!! Edited September 3, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 By all the difference of opinion it is clear NO ONE knows what they're talking about when it comes to specifics. Not even the people trying to shill this to us. That there is the problem. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Nobody is going to give you 3 million dollars EVER. Everyone mind you would rather have a PS4 instead of investing in this ridiculous pipe dream called the Retro POS. P.O.S. - Isn't that a little harsh? RetroVGS is not a "piece of dookie." I would love to support this but atm I don't have the funds, and most other people not named "Keatah" probably don't either. I'm afraid they are pricing themselves out of the market, especially with the FPGA cores raising the projected price to $400 and what not. I hope they can get a Neo Geo core going and get SNK and the few Neo Geo homebrewers on board. That would be a savior. So would the cart adapters potentially. Attract more audience. But currently is being marketed as a platform to port a few measely homebrews currently available on retro platforms we already own, or indie titles already available on the big three consoles for $10, or iOS/Android for $5. Will current gamers be willing to pay essentially the same price for a Wii-U, PS4, or Xbone, to get a bunch of indie and homebrew games they already have access to on other platforms? Yes, carts are wonderful, don't get me wrong. I see a lot of parallels to the rebirth of music on vinyl, because retro is awesome. Regardless, I hope you succeed and wish you guys the best. I'll be watching from a distance, and if it succeeds I will buy one when/if I can afford it. I just cannot invest right now at the current price point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) The wife pointed out, independently of reading this thread, that a console like this is needed at any price point. Especially if there's ever to be any inkling of hope of reversing the disposable digital game trend made popular by phones. Or at least having something co-existing beside it. The new information revealed more than justifies the price. For those of you hoping to get it for less than $200, no.. That should have been obvious from the get-go. Specs change and budgets always balloon upwards. Whether it be be toys like this or the F-35 it's all the same. What you can do, is take the $200.00 you were saving for this and stash it away. Then save a dollar a day for next year. Shit, $0.80 would even do it. Stop smoking, give up that designer extra super latte, downsize them fries.. You'll even come out ahead of the curve! ADDED: Just one of those will cover the increased cost, not take a whole year, and improve your health at the same time. Those of you that just think this project is ridiculous, just keep playing smartphone style games. No harm done. Everything here is a choice. Edited September 3, 2015 by Keatah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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