+CyranoJ Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Wouldn't serial access to mask ROMs require additional hardware in each cart? Sure, but that's easy to print on another bit of paper. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagman Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I know they'll probably be really angry about me leaking this secret proto pic, but... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I see how this could get lucrative. Anyone interested in a run of cardstock AES consoles? Guaranteed to resemble the real thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I know they'll probably be really angry about me leaking this secret proto pic, but... Where is the link to your kickstarter please? If they want 3 mil I'm sure you will get at least 6! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) My point of view. Personally I am really disappointed that they took the stance of "we sell you an idea" and "give us the money and we will build something". I was really hoping they really had already something up and running with some retro core and some "contemporary" support. Alas this seems to turn out to be a simple exercise in good will, maybe they can pull it off maybe not, but I ain't throwing money before I see something. There's plenty of projects out there, it seems it is easier to add an ARM to the Mist project (they already have one as IO controller) or an FPGA to the RPi2 (they already have an ARM too) than pulling this one off based on simple "good will". I really really wanted an HDMI console that could emulate faithfully the retro systems (16 bits included) so that I can get rid of all the clunkers around the house and all the clutter and cables and ... but it seems like it is not going to happen ... such a shame. And yes I did not plan to use the old carts, that adds to the clutter, flash/SD was the way forward, oh and keep in mind that buying overpriced and used old games does not help at all the original developers so playing the game via flash/SD is not damaging at all for systems that are 20Y+ old. Instead we are here at 1 week from the kickstarter with just a rushed paper printout of a PCB that obviously does not exist yet ... what did they do in the last 6 months beside buying the Jag molds? .... they sure should have some kind of proto somewhere ... do they? Seriously at this point I believe I am busy on the other line with "the prince of Nigeria" as it is more likely to NOT disappoint. EDIT: obviously if they ship something in 1Y from now and it seems reasonable and it is NOT 400US$ and it has some believable core I will likely buy it used ... yeah I am a little full of s**t but you know my eyes are brown so go figure!!! Yeah I am an old bitter retrogamer. Edited September 8, 2015 by phoenixdownita 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 The wife thinks they are using (going to use) an Intel-Altera chip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) EDIT: obviously if they ship something in 1Y from now and it seems reasonable and it is NOT 400US$ and it has some believable core I will likely buy it used ... yeah I am a little full of s**t but you know my eyes are brown so go figure!!! Yeah I am an old bitter retrogamer. Welcome to the club! Mine are brown as well, as are my mom's. I guess better to have brown eyes than a brown nose! My fiance on the other hand, has green eyes with amber in the center, just like my deceased dad... The wife thinks they are using (going to use) an Intel-Altera chip. Assuming AMD and Intel both adopt FPGA cores in future processor builds, do you think it is something EMU authors will utilize? You still have to deal with frame buffers and OS underpinnings and USB controller dongles though. I hate PC emulation for gaming... Edited September 8, 2015 by stardust4ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) Assuming AMD and Intel both adopt FPGA cores in future processor builds, do you think it is something EMU authors will utilize? You still have to deal with frame buffers and OS underpinnings and USB controller dongles though. I hate PC emulation for gaming... I doubt it. Not directly. And certainly not right away. It'll take at least 5-8 years before it becomes commonplace in the installed base anyways. The compiler may use some of it if its available. But to have an option to "turn it on" for better realism, I doubt it. Emulator authors tend to want to keep their works as cross-platform as possible. I love PCs for emulation. The ability to organize and locate with file system is a huge advantage. So is being able to segue from system to system nearly instantly. I've been dealing with the minutia of controllers and configurations for ages so it's no big deal. It's the virtual equivalent of manipulating your real hardware. Taking it out, setting it up, maintaining it, that sort of thing. While emulators are not 100% accurate, they're close enough to enjoy the goodness surrounding classic gaming. And you get a dose of reliability for free. Having 5 games in MAME is a huge time and tedium saver. Increase that to just 10 games if you can't see the advantage. Then imagine Tempest and Pole Position are among them, you begin to appreciate emulation. Getting parts, constantly adjusting monitors, dealing with intermittent controllers, high power consumption.. Those are all issues unless you spend time refurbing and upgrading what you buy. Then there's the comfort and customization and space-savings. An emulation box can fit anywhere, even face-hugger style on the back of a TV set. You can adjust just about anything in any way conceivable. And you can play from the couch or recliner or survival shelter. Edited September 8, 2015 by Keatah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 One thing taking shape is the polarization of digital downloads with subscriptions, vs. independent physical media. And by independent I mean NO internet connection. There are many reasons why your digital download won't work in the future. 1- Console failure an inability to transfer to new console. 2- Server closure due to corporate boardroom profit decisions. 3- License expiration 4- Delisting due to declining popularity. #1, #2, and #4 are familiar issues and we all expect that to happen. #3 is a little more insidious and tricky. All of a sudden your game refuses to work and that is that. They just simply don't renew the license and the developer and "the service" part ways. You get left with nothing. They talk (and pitch to you) about reducing costs. But more and more digital games in the online "stores" are more expensive then the physical ones in real stores. Reducing their costs, not yours. They don't pay for mfg, distro, boxes, shipping, retail space.. And yet the price to you stays the same. You can be happy and support that. I'm not. The day that physical games stop being produced is the day I stop purchasing. I do not purchase any download-only material that I cannot easily back-up with simple copy/paste operations. And if it calls home for activation I also don't bother with it. Because then it's only a matter of time till something happens and the server goes down. Physical media is definitely out of style right now. But I hope that changes when things start disappearing and people discover they don't own anything. If people don't wizen up, they will be playing their home console games on a pay-per-play basis. Pay each time you start the game. Digital downloads are 100% a result of manufacturers' profit incentives, nothing but a big bad fuck-you to the consumer. You know it. I know it. They know it, they don't care about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I really really wanted an HDMI console that could emulate faithfully the retro systems (16 bits included) so that I can get rid of all the clunkers around the house and all the clutter and cables and ... but it seems like it is not going to happen ... such a shame. And yes I did not plan to use the old carts, that adds to the clutter, flash/SD was the way forward, oh and keep in mind that buying overpriced and used old games does not help at all the original developers so playing the game via flash/SD is not damaging at all for systems that are 20Y+ old. It's called an SSF PC - we've had them for years. As has been discussed endlessly in this very thread! It's a shame it took some cardboard and an ink jet printout held in place by a LOL-finger for you to finally see sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 You may read about my own KVGS here. Revel in its capabilities. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242452-how-many-of-us-geezers-are-down-with-the-retro-vgs/?p=3316445 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) I doubt it. Not directly. And certainly not right away. It'll take at least 5-8 years before it becomes commonplace in the installed base anyways. The compiler may use some of it if its available. But to have an option to "turn it on" for better realism, I doubt it. Emulator authors tend to want to keep their works as cross-platform as possible. I love PCs for emulation. The ability to organize and locate with file system is a huge advantage. So is being able to segue from system to system nearly instantly. I've been dealing with the minutia of controllers and configurations for ages so it's no big deal. It's the virtual equivalent of manipulating your real hardware. Taking it out, setting it up, maintaining it, that sort of thing. While emulators are not 100% accurate, they're close enough to enjoy the goodness surrounding classic gaming. And you get a dose of reliability for free. Having 5 games in MAME is a huge time and tedium saver. Increase that to just 10 games if you can't see the advantage. Then imagine Tempest and Pole Position are among them, you begin to appreciate emulation. Getting parts, constantly adjusting monitors, dealing with intermittent controllers, high power consumption.. Those are all issues unless you spend time refurbing and upgrading what you buy. Then there's the comfort and customization and space-savings. An emulation box can fit anywhere, even face-hugger style on the back of a TV set. You can adjust just about anything in any way conceivable. And you can play from the couch or recliner or survival shelter. I never said I hated emulation. I have a Raspberry Pi 2 bartop arcade. It's a thing of beauty. I just don't like the idea of gaming on a PC. This includes plugging in USB controllers, configuration, etc. Maybe it's just that I associate computers with work and consoles with play. The idea of sitting behind a laptop or desktop instead of a game machine doesn't thrill me. If you could somehow use a computer as the "brains" but hide the OS, kind of how the Raspberry Pi boots directly into Retro Pie instead of Rasbian. Yes you could technically do the same with a Windows PC by shutting down all unnecessary services and loading MAME directly. But then it wouldn't be much good for anything else. Physical media is definitely out of style right now. But I hope that changes when things start disappearing and people discover they don't own anything. If people don't wizen up, they will be playing their home console games on a pay-per-play basis. Pay each time you start the game. Digital downloads are 100% a result of manufacturers' profit incentives, nothing but a big bad fuck-you to the consumer. You know it. I know it. They know it, they don't care about it. Not for long. Vinyl is making a comeback. I see a similar cart renaissance in the future. Retro gaming is at an all time high right now. Cloned consoles are a thing. Maybe RetroVGS is the next step. Physical carts. Indie games. But cater to the hipster market, the $300-$400 price tag will not. Edited September 8, 2015 by stardust4ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Yes you could technically do the same with a Windows PC by shutting down all unnecessary services and loading MAME directly. But then it wouldn't be much good for anything else. Unlike a console, which is also good for.... oh, wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I never said I hated emulation. I have a Raspberry Pi 2 bartop arcade. It's a thing of beauty. I just don't like the idea of gaming on a PC. This includes plugging in USB controllers, configuration, etc. Maybe it's just that I associate computers with work and consoles with play. The idea of sitting behind a laptop or desktop instead of a game machine doesn't thrill me. If you could somehow use a computer as the "brains" but hide the OS, kind of how the Raspberry Pi boots directly into Retro Pie instead of Rasbian. Yes you could technically do the same with a Windows PC by shutting down all unnecessary services and loading MAME directly. But then it wouldn't be much good for anything else. The whole "PC" and "Windows / OS" stigma is very real to many people. Understandable. Especially in today's world of dumbed down smartphones. A configuration file and keyboard can leave somebody frozen in terror. I've gotten past that a long time ago. Getting past the stigma and a minimalist custom skin for the desktop does the job nicely. I built in two Bliss Boxes, Ipac4, 2 standard legacy game ports, and 4 USB ports specifically for controller interfacing. I also have a couple of tabletop controllers that interface via Ipac. Heavy wood, with various arcade quality controls suited for games like Assault, Discs of Tron, Tempest, Asteroids, Blasteroids, Star Wars, Lunar Lander, and so on. The wife wanted them so I made them. Always remember you can built a mini-ITX system ready to run anything you can imagine. And make it look not like a PC. That helps! You divide your system software up into 3 major parts. 1- OS 2- Emulators 3- Maintenance tools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) Bah! I am hardly what some would call a casual PC user. I built a massive 8-core Bulldozer rig from scratch, Windows 7 Pro 64 bits, overclocked to 4.2Ghz continuous turbo on all cores. Last year I upgraded to 16Gb (8Gbx2) of dual channel 1867Mhz Raedon RAM. That was not cheap. But seriously, sans the RAM upgrade, I built my current rig in 2011, expecting to upgrade in two or three years. My 8150 FX was the first 8-core processor to hit the desktop market. Where's our 16-core desktop processors, AMD? Intel? Nobody cares about RAW performance anymore. I could upgrade to 5Ghz with shorter pipeline but the marginal performance boost is hardly worth it. Seriously, 4 years have gone by and that's all you got? Very little innovation on the home computer front. Now AMD is talking of APUs with graphics and CPU combined on a single die. Thanks, less options for the system builder. Silicon tech has hit diminishing returns. Nothing's really getting any faster, just more efficient through die shrinkage. That and everyone's going to mobile now... Edited September 8, 2015 by stardust4ever 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Consoles are just as much work as PCs if you hack them and go through the same process of loading emulators and ROMs to them. Consoles out of the box are far easier, obviously, but if you want to make them (say, the original XBOX, as an example) as useful as computers in terms of emulation, it takes work. But, it's typically free, unlike this project, so that has a huge benefit in and of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Not for long. Vinyl is making a comeback. I see a similar cart renaissance in the future. Retro gaming is at an all time high right now. Cloned consoles are a thing. Maybe RetroVGS is the next step. Physical carts. Indie games. But cater to the hipster market, the $300-$400 price tag will not. Physical media may very well survive as a semi-sustainable niche, much like vinyl, but the reality is we're moving to all digital for all our media (music, movies, books, games, etc.) for a variety of very good reasons, not the least of which is convenience and accessibility. It always comes down to what the average person - who makes up the largest market - wants, and the average person seems to have a strong preference for digital. While I myself am a hopeless collector of physical items, even I find myself preferring the incredible convenience of digital these days and growing ever more frustrated with the clutter of said physical items. As for the price of the RetroVGS, that is what it is. When they're dealing with the kind of sales numbers they'll likely be dealing with, there will be little in the way of economies of scale. In that regard it is a good analog to the vinyl market in that that target audience has to work a bit harder and put up with a bit more to get what they want, assuming they indeed want what's on offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 For the average consumer, a simple smartphone is all that's needed. And if that consumer has a PC, they are more than satisfied with 2 cores at 3GHz. Computing power in the consumer sphere doesn't advance like it used to. We are just over the curve of good-enough computing. Companies with their improved metrics and market climate analysis see that and stopped pushing the envelope. The (largest base of) consumer has spoken! Currently it isn't scientific or gaming that is driving advances. It is the data center, and the managing and accessing of datasets. And you will see intel chips in 2017 that cater to that end. Another thing is that consumer applications don't really need all the power a continuation of Moore's Law, or extrapolation of performance increases from the past 10 years, would exhibit. It's just not necessary. A note on low-power chips. I like elegant quiet computing and I'm all for advances in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 While I myself am a hopeless collector of physical items, even I find myself preferring the incredible convenience of digital these days and growing ever more frustrated with the clutter of said physical items. Emulation provides the best of both worlds. All the material can be saved on a real device under my control. Not in the cloud. And it consumes minimal physical space. Win-Win! As for the price of the RetroVGS, that is what it is. When they're dealing with the kind of sales numbers they'll likely be dealing with, there will be little in the way of economies of scale. In that regard it is a good analog to the vinyl market in that that target audience has to work a bit harder and put up with a bit more to get what they want, assuming they indeed want what's on offer. It may be that $400-$500 is what is needed to get something like RVGS off the ground, including some profit for its creators. Does anyone know the BOM for the VCS and the cost of the development and manufacturing work? Completely itemized? In 1977? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glazball Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 In an interview I listened to this weekend (I believe it was linked earlier in this thread), Mike says that for the KS, he wants to have a working prototype so that everyone can see it powered on. Will that still happen? Do you have something tangible to demonstrate proof of concept? If not, I hope the team will consider pushing back the KS until ready. I'm willing to support the RVGS but don't have the luxury of throwing away hundreds of dollars on a leap of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) That's the point. Without a prototype to base on is hard to judge .... hot air, paper PCBs, and verbal promises don't help either. Edited September 8, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantis Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Oh, man... if they had come up with a real prototype by now things would have been different. But a cardboard WITHIN THE TRANSPARENT SHELLS THEY SOLD HERE - they sure haven't come anywhere at all!!!The last 6 months they have only changed their minds about what it is, and now this?They obviously don't have any money for a prototype at this point, they don't know what they will put in it, and kickstarters will need to fund their prototype and their salaries sitting down and argue what will end up inside of it...Since they don't know what it is themselves, HOW CAN THEY PUT A PRICE TAG ON IT???? And "sell" it?????????????Hm, yeah... I'm out, but my pop corn bowl is on! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletunes Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 This reminds me of the XM (runs away) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 It appears they've taken down their inkjet photos. I'm guessing they popped in and read this thread. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts