Mux Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 The 3 tiers of the FPGA are/were supposed to be: 25K LE 50K LE 100K LE Neither of those tiers warrant an additional $2m. :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 From the revised IGG bios: "John has degrees in computer science and management from St. Edward's University in Austin, and five degrees from De Anza College in Cupertino—where Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak studied." Why is that bit important? I doubt the 2 ever met, it was Woita the got a resistor replacement approved by Woz in the early 80'. Yeah, that's pretty transparent resumé padding and name-dropping, but I guess it's better than "he was hired to design a Playstation because he reverse-engineered a Playstation" or whatever it said before. On the bright side they added an intermediate goal, they changed the numbers of how the funds will be spent ..... It's great to see things so stable that nothing you read lasts for more than 2 days, while attempting to get money. Exactly. I seem to recall an ancient proverb that warned against building on quicksand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_convoy Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 What's baffling is Mike is already taking the victim route (those Facebook comments were mean! Kevtris isn't the only game in town! Just give us a chance!) while seemingly not listening to the very real concerns. I'd pay 200 - 300 for a console that could play games from every era up to the Playstation one (taking real carts would be my preference, but it wouldn't be not mandatory; I'm not ROM adverse) that upscales, hooks up to HDMI, does scanlines, lets me use the controllers I want, etc. I have a LOT of video games, and while I have most of my consoles hooked up in various ways, nothing would beat the convenience of playing my games in my living room on my big screen. Add to that, the ability to play the Axiom Verges of the world? Great! But that's not what's happening here. Mike is way too concerned with multiple colors of consoles and cartridges and low serial numbers... and not nearly enough with proof of concept. Attacking Kevtris doesn't fix that. Whining about mean people online doesn't fix that. Announcing a new color available for a launch title doesn't fix that. Showing failed Kickstarter consoles doesn't fix that. Some of us have dealt with Mike for years; I think we know that he isn't setting up a scam... but people who DON'T know Mike can't be blamed for making that jump in thinking. It REEKS of scam! It's the Konix-MultiSystem or the Phantom or what the Ouya was promised to be at this point. Seriously, this whole thing needs to be scrapped and retooled from the ground up... he's either too proud to see it... or he's getting REALLY bad advice from somewhere. I'm still, after all this time, not certain what the goal of this console is meant to be. Yes, I get "playing new retro-styled games," but beyond that. This isn't nailed down in concept enough; it's too scattershot, serving too many masters and ultimately serving none. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atm94404 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Guys, you can't make this stuff up: Quote I co-founded a game developer that sold for nearly as much as Atari. The experience and knowledge I gained there through reverse-engineering the Sony PlayStation later got me hired by Sony, to develop a PlayStation. So John Carlsen got hired by Sony because of his reverse engineering of the Playstation and Sony then hired him to develop the Playstation. Are flux capacitors one of the IGG perks? Did he really just brag about having a company that sold for NEARLY as much as Atari? First of all, which time Atari was sold? The biggest was the sale to Warner, but that was for ~$30 million. Then Tramiel got Atari from Warner for $50- not million, fifty dollars in cash- as long as he would help make all of Atari's creditors go away by whatever means he could. Then we have the sale of what was left of Atari to Hasbro for $5 million. I've worked on small teams for individual engineering projects that sold to third parties for more than all those combined. I don't think that makes me special enough to ask people to trust me with $2 million for an idea with no prototype. If I added up all the revenues of the game SKUs I've worked on, it's easily in the billions of dollars. And guess what? Many (most?) mid-to-large software makers in the 90s reversed engineered the Playstation (I know because I worked for one) to make their own dev kits because they were 1) In short supply 2) Ridiculously expensive 3) Dead simple to figure out. It wasn't like the cornucopia of hardware thrown together for the Saturn. There are thousands of people in this industry that can make these same claims. You just have to work in the game industry and be old :-) . 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickcris Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) I have an interview scheduled with Mike and the team tonight. Any questions you all want losed to them? I would like to know about this post on facebook: RETRO VGS Trevor, we don't have the many thousands of dollars to create our prototype. That is why we are here now trying to raise funds. You can't prototype something like this for a few thousand dollars despite what you have read and are lead to believe. Once funded you will see real working prototypes come together relativey soon. From what they said before, they bought the Jaguar moulds and covered the cost of them already by selling the clear shells on here. I thought the moulds cost "many thousands of dollars" also. Why did they not reinvest that money into a prototype? Just seems to me that they don't have faith in their own system and dont want to risk their money. Edited September 23, 2015 by mickcris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algus Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I stand by my theory that his hardware guys are misleading him. Someone must be telling him, "oh it'll be easy once we have the money" if he really thinks just having a case is 1/2 the battle. The case should be the least of his concerns. I'm assuming he isn't a hardware guy (some of the breakdowns here have definitely been over my head!) and doesn't get the work that needs to go in what he is asking for. It doesn't help that the project goal is some sort of nebulous "can play homebrews and new style retro games too" Having a goal like "it needs to run Tiny Knight and Gunlord flawlessly" is a good starting point but what specs are you shipping and what do those specs offer developers? How the hell can he have any serious developers lined up if they don't even know what specs they'll be working with? See if the hardware goals were even remotely defined, I could be down for helping to get the prototype off the ground. Small benchmarks instead of this big campaign all in one go. It is to much trust to put into people that are still in the planning stage. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantis Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 It's interesting that they've posted a couple of Kickstarter campaigns without prototypes. As I wrote earlier, I think for some (many?) of us there's no difference in what those campaigns did and what RVGS did. Like them, RVGS has "nothing to show". Part of an escape plan. They put it into proportions and context, "no big deal, we didn't make it this time, it happens to lots of projects" kind of thing. If the project can't be saved save your honor and your judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 They just said the following on FB: "We do in fact, have lots of the pieces of the puzzle in place with the tooling and controller in hand. That is half the battle." Do they honestly believe that anywhere remotely close to half the work is done at this point? Earlier in the week the tooling and OEM controller was the "majority" of the work, now it's only half. Maybe some day Mike will realize it's much, much less than half. Unlike the IGG campaign, his thinking is going in the right direction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_convoy Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 He has all of the designer colors picked out and the low serial numbers reserved; that's something, I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I stand by my theory that his hardware guys are misleading him. Someone must be telling him, "oh it'll be easy once we have the money" if he really thinks just having a case is 1/2 the battle. The case should be the least of his concerns. I'm assuming he isn't a hardware guy (some of the breakdowns here have definitely been over my head!) and doesn't get the work that needs to go in what he is asking for. It doesn't help that the project goal is some sort of nebulous "can play homebrews and new style retro games too" Having a goal like "it needs to run Tiny Knight and Gunlord flawlessly" is a good starting point but what specs are you shipping and what do those specs offer developers? How the hell can he have any serious developers lined up if they don't even know what specs they'll be working with? See if the hardware goals were even remotely defined, I could be down for helping to get the prototype off the ground. Small benchmarks instead of this big campaign all in one go. It is to much trust to put into people that are still in the planning stage. I think misleading is a bit strong. It seems like this group is naive to modern innovation, and are relying on decades-old, out of date processes. KevTris has illustrated this fairly well. When they've been advised, hey, nobody does it that way anymore, there are cheaper ways, they've seemed to stonewall. From day one, even I couldn't understand the need to reuse 20 year old molds? I think it's commendable on one side that RVGS would choose utmost quality, but we're talking plastics here. Why increase the price of the system so much? This is not nor will ever be as widespread a release as a corporate system (PS4, XBONE, Wii U). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantis Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I'm starting to think they will sit this fund race out. Maybe the'll stick to their LAST choice in the end, to run the entire campaign, to show us consistence.After a couple of weeks people will get used to this not being funded, and start to "forgive" helping them out with "excuses". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I find it interesting that Double Dragon Trilogy is listed on the IGG site as a game coming to the RVGS. But when asked, this was Mike's response: We have talked with DotEmu about this and are hopeful it will be on the system. They are waiting to see if the demand is there so help us show them and we will get in on RETRO VGS! More BS and deception from the RVGS crew. Truly makes me wonder about every other title they've listed. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leods Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I stand by my theory that his hardware guys are misleading him. Just think about what you're saying. The lead guy in a gaming Hardware Project has no technical knowledge, and you're saying the guys with actual technical knowledge are the ones ruining the Project? I've heard People talking about how great Mike is. I don't know if he's great or not, but to think you should lead a Multi Million Dollars Project to fund a gaming Company and a console, without having much knowledge of Hardware or Software development at all seems delusional. If something he should be listening. John was working on a plug and Play PLaystation aimed at growing economies, and the Project was cancelled. But it's completely different to have worked on packaging a console that's already layed out, and developing gaming Hardware from scratch. Atari had many arcade machines and the 2600 under the belt and still screwed up the 5200, and by the time they were releasing the Jaguar they were already veterans. And it still flopped. So I think People should just stop talking aobut "this guy is this and that guy is that" and start talking: "the RVGS is this and that". I don't care who's making the System. I'm not here to like or dislike People, I'm here to make coverage of a product. I want to know what is being offered, so I can decide and help People decide wether they should back the Project or not. Telling me your past won't Change that. I want to know about the present and the future. But not in Terms of Abstract nebulous promises. I just want to know what this System is, what the games for it are, and what the plans are for supporting this in the future. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenegg Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) Seems like the team RetroVGS team doesn't see eye-to-eye. When they started posting failed Kickstarter campaigns, I responded with the following: "Showing failed projects that didn't have prototypes isn't exactly helping your cause. It's not like you have anything much more substantial in your campaign" John Carlsen 'liked' that comment. I also wrote the following regarding the comment that having the tooling and choosing a controller was half the work. "They don't seem to realize that making comments like this go against their statements of having an experienced team working on the project." John 'liked' that comment as well. Seems like those guys need to sit down and figure things out. Edited September 23, 2015 by goldenegg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 John was working on a plug and Play PLaystation aimed at growing economies, and the Project was cancelled. But it's completely different to have worked on packaging a console that's already layed out, and developing gaming Hardware from scratch. Atari had many arcade machines and the 2600 under the belt and still screwed up the 5200, and by the time they were releasing the Jaguar they were already veterans. And it still flopped. I gave them some crap earlier for going on and on about their "decades of experience," as if their appeals to authority were supposed to be enough to assuage everyone's doubts. It's true that even veterans make mistakes, and it's also true that the kind of experience that they seem to have may not be directly relevant to the needs of this project. As you say, it's one thing to work for a big established company as part of a team of engineers and/or developers, but it's quite another to be starting a company yourself, creating a new platform from scratch, and interacting directly with the public. Just having X number of years of experience doesn't automatically give you the ability to do all that. I'm sure that Mike has been getting lots of bad advice, but if he's the head of the project, it's ultimately his responsibility. A good project manager doesn't necessarily have to have all the necessary skills to do the job himself; he just has to have the self-awareness and the honesty to realize what his limitations are, and the ability to bring the right people together. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algus Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I know Mike, I don't know the other guys so that is where I am coming from...though I am inclined to agree with Greg2600 about misleading being to strong a word. Obviously something is broken somewhere. Is it just that they are out of touch with modern practices? Could be since they want to build a 90s era console. BTW I don't absolve Mike...there is plenty of blame to go around for this train wreck. But yes, I do think his hardware guys are giving him unrealistic expectations. Why would they stay on board after everything that has happened if it was all Mike? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 It's probably way too early to say this, but I think this project and its aftermath will make a fascinating case study in what not to do with a crowdfunding project. I hope someone writes a book about it someday. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 It's probably way too early to say this, but I think this project and its aftermath will make a fascinating case study in what not to do with a crowdfunding project. I hope someone writes a book about it someday. No book needed, just a single PPT slide. Don't blame everyone else for your troubles Have a clear vision of what you're trying to manufacture Have an actual prototype, not just 3D images before asking for $2,000,000 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I think misleading is a bit strong. It seems like this group is naive to modern innovation, and are relying on decades-old, out of date processes. KevTris has illustrated this fairly well. I completely missed that part. Using decades-old tech? I guess it's completely possible that hardware guys with 1990/2000s heydays might not be updated to newer tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 No book needed, just a single PPT slide. Don't blame everyone else for your troubles Have a clear vision of what you're trying to manufacture Have an actual prototype, not just 3D images before asking for $2,000,000 Well, of course one can sum up the lessons of the RVGS that way, just as one could sum up the sinking of the Titanic by saying "don't go crashing into icebergs." But I think the story of how and why it happened would be edifying to learn more about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenegg Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 But I think the story of how and why it happened would be edifying to learn more about. The problem is that I don't think there's a non-biased source who could write the story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 No book needed, just a single PPT slide. Don't blame everyone else for your troubles Have a clear vision of what you're trying to manufacture Have an actual prototype, not just 3D images before asking for $2,000,000 Bull! This needs to be made! Here's a computer-generated cover for you. Now start an IndieGogo fund and I'll be throwing money your way: 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I'd pay 200 - 300 for a console that could play games from every era up to the Playstation one (taking real carts would be my preference, but it wouldn't be not mandatory; I'm not ROM adverse) that upscales, hooks up to HDMI, does scanlines, lets me use the controllers I want, etc. I have a LOT of video games, and while I have most of my consoles hooked up in various ways, nothing would beat the convenience of playing my games in my living room on my big screen. Someone posted this in the RVGS Facebook feed, which I have been checking compulsively for the LOLs but don't want to "Like" lest someone get the wrong idea. I can link KS hardware consoles too. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/robotloveskitty/gamekid and https://www.kickstarter.com/.../mini-emu-all-in-one-retro... - Yes, they're using Raspberry Pis and putting them in cases. People paid for it because they all were realistically priced and people knew what they were getting. Do you see the difference yet between your project and theirs? I just backed the GameKid project (I've been meaning to build something like this with a Raspberry Pi anyway) and the Mini Emu is the "do-everything" console you say you want. There are plenty of other semi-DIY ways to do this (Nvidia Shield, Ouya or other Android micro consoles, GPD handhelds) that would deliver more than RVGS can offer for a lot less money. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mux Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 There's something odd about John Carlsen's LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johncarlsen In that he's got all these things listed but apparently only worked for one company? With regards to 'old technology', considering his vast resume I don't think that would be a problem? Just curious here, especially after 'liking' comments that actually seem sensible yet go against what Mike's putting out.. Maybe there's some in-fighting going on or the blame game has started internally? -Mux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariNerd Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 So, it would really need to get to the 3.1M stretch-goal to get a FPGA chip with enough gates to simulate most of what people would want? If it only reached the minimum funding, it would be limited to probably 8-bit and maybe 16-bit systems, I'm guestimating? Or is more possible? That was a big part of my hesitation - the feeling that to reach a certain margin point it would need to feel somewhat compromised rather than the stretch goals being an icing to the proverbial cake. At that level, it's pushing the need to get about 9 pledges per hour to meet that level - not impossible, but surely slipping away.. .I generally like the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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