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Commercially successful Jaguar


Eyemsougly

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After the tirade of anti-AA foaming the great Doctor LeGrande went out of his way to fertilise twitter with recently, I say the ossom oppressor's name deserves never to appear in these pages again... what an absolute flaming, arrogant and ignorant fool he makes of himself.

Exactly, when people spout such unbelievable fucking nonsense as Legrande did there it becomes a rather large and unavoidable problem of credibility, which has been one of the big problems all along...

 

An impressive use of the dual-layer flux capacitor and a commendable workaround for the hyperwaffle flabbergard bug in the cuntywoofer. It seems to be acutely pinpointed to the upper nufflebanks of the Digihole Super Pebble making it as though the problem no longer exists. From the evidence the music plays and the links are up when the general codes are all making computations when this workabout is finely situated, I can't see how anyone might disagree that swinging from a scatosack isn't the best thing you can spend a Saturday afternoon occupied with.

 

Pretty good, but I think you're still giving him a bit too much credit in having any understanding whatsoever of anything technical he writes or repeatedly regurgitates.

 

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He's saying the A.I on offer is better than PS1 era games, that's a bold claim as i loved things like Darklight Conflict, 1st 2 Colony Wars games on PS1 (not so keen on Red Sun) and have previousily interviewed one of the Colony Wars team, so it'd be an interesting game to approach, having pre-set expectations as it were based on his interview quotes...

 

 

I want to get Darklight conflict for my Saturn! That looks so bad ass!

 

As for the claims LeGrand made, he also did say that it was 'his opinion' of the Jaguar vs the PSX. He was not shy about that either. They are bold claims. And I don't blame ANYBODY for being skeptical. But to dismiss them out of hand and to go along with a crowds ridiculing and chortling of a claim when they themselves have not achieved anywhere near the level of technical achievement of the party making the claim is not fair and a bit suspect. Especially without giving the other person equal time or a chance to respond.

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Exactly, when people spout such unbelievable fucking nonsense as Legrande did there it becomes a rather large and unavoidable problem of credibility, which has been one of the big problems all along...

 

 

Pretty good, but I think you're still giving him a bit too much credit in having any understanding whatsoever of anything technical he writes or repeatedly regurgitates.

 

 

 

You keep trying to convince yourself of that.

 

 

I did not realize LeGrand was on twitter. Hmm. I'll check that out.

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Rebellion were not the people to attempt a Virtua Racing clone (but in fairness the Time Warner team screwed up the Saturn ver.of V.Racing), anymore than H.M.S or Beyond Games were to attempt to copy SF2/MK and trying to do a texture-mapped VF on Jaguar, just madness, but that was Atari desperate to vcompete with what 3DO, PS1 and Saturn were offering, rather than admit they could'nt match them and instead pour resources into only on Jaguar type projects.

 

Exactly. The only possible way the Jaguar could have succeeded was as a niche console with a unique library of games. Games like Cybermorph and IronSoldier. If there needed to be Virtua Fighter and Virtua Racer clones, and I think that would have really helped, then Atari need to develop them in house. If Atari didn't have the resources to develop such games than it had no business selling consoles in the first place.

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Darklight Conflict looked (for the time) gorgeous on PS1, but man alive the difficulty curve was steep even back then.Think Saturn version looses something in the lighting etc from what i've read, but is no slouch.

I can never quite explain why Colony Wars:Red Sun left me so cold..on paper it should be the best in the series, was doing more technically, it just seemed to lack that spark as it were.Had the same with Wipeout Fusion on PS2, could'nt fault it, technically, it just felt ..clinical compared to Wipeout 2097, let alone Wipeout 3.
I'm not going along with anyone for or again'st anything Battlesphere related, as like i say i've no personal exp., plus i did say i read his view as being his and it came across unbiased as he detailed what PS1 offered in terms of technical support as well as Sony's deep pockets and marketing.I also explainned how in my exp.alone full interviews often get content cut as it's not related to the article or there's a word count.
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I stand by my choice of words that perhaps his claims were perhaps optimistic as, they are quite a bold thing to say, it's one thing to praise an akward to develop for system like the Jaguar, by saying what it's nature offered you as a coder (indeed you'll find plenty of PS2 coders who prefered coding to the metal that the PS2 offered over the Xbox and vice versa....) but it was the comment about it not being until Halo on the Xbox that raised an eyebrow for myself, and i wondered if he'd not been carried away by the moment as it were...because that's some leap in hardware performance to go from Jaguar to Xbox and to myself, i wondered what Xbox did that PS2, DC, Game Cube had failed to offer, as a big selling point or hype factor for PS2 was all the Physics and complex A.I the hardware offered developers over the PS2...basically a lot of RAW horse power developers could allocate as they saw fit.

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I mean i too am not a coder, but from what i've read, if you wrote code 'properly' for both the Jaguar and later the Saturn, then PS2, which took (considerably? ) longer than it might to code for other platforms from those 2 era's, everything should work fine, if you did'nt, your code was basically up shit creek and not a paddle in sight.

 

So far no-one can tell me if he's coded on Saturn though, so i'm still unsure how he knew Jaguar was easier to code for than Saturn.

 

Panzer Dragon Team said in interviews they had no 'oissues' with Dual CPU factor as they'd been coding for coin-op's featuring multiple CPU's, so there a non-techy like myself had a point of reference, the Jaguar article simply left me scratching my head in places.

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OMG you are so amazing! How do you do it with your wordplay magicksessessss and you're masterful use of meme's and double whoopfer flubbing word flippin use of negative emotional stimuli rather than logic points is incredible!!

 

You are my hero.

I do it because you do not cease.

 

It's simple:

 

1. Admit to yourself when you are out of your depth.

 

2. Resist offering comment on that which you do not even begin to understand.

 

3. Choose not to be a puppet for those who no longer grace us with their presence.

 

4. Worship and praise anyone you like, but, in doing so, resist the urge to belittle others in the process (Refer to points 1, 2 and 3.).

 

Do these things and you might even begin to enjoy yourself a little.

 

Alternative is to carry on regardless, make further cringeworthy posts and continue an increasingly bizarre cycle of pretence and fail... but to what end?

 

p.s. Ignore user: you're doing it wrong. Idea: Open up some debug windows. Post screenshots to your buddies. ????. Profit.

Edited by sh3-rg
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Swiftly back on topic:

 

@Eyemsougly-Yep i've always found it odd that Rebellion take so much 'crap' for C.Flag II (ok, it's an horrendous game in places, but they were a small team, limited resources) yet by comparison both Time warner and SEGA get away with not only a poor version of Virtua Racing after proving what could be done on MD SVP and 32X, but also rushing the 1st version of Daytona USA to Saturn, then whilst making technical amends with C.E, loosing something in the process, plus was'nt Touring Car said to be awful as well on Saturn? (Racers are'nt my thing).Basically Jaguar was'nt only platform to suffer from dissapointing racers that people expected far more from, it seems to escape simply due to fact Sega Rally was so superb.

 

Also Virtua Fighter, Remix and VF2 were all good showcases for how coders got more and more from the hardware, but if smaller teams with far worse development tools had been given task of coding them or the 32X version, would they have been anywhere near as good?

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I really don't know how Atari could have done things differently. They saw what was popular and tried to replicate it ( Starfox, Virtua racing, Mortal kombat, and mariokart ) we all say it was a bad decision but thats only because they were substandard shit versions. I wonder if they produced great clones if that would have made a difference.

 

It was the 16bit ports that were a real problem as well, why bother when you can already get them on existing machines.

 

 

The mentioning of the NeoGeo was an interesting point as it reminds me of something a friend of mine came up with. Dont know if it would work but I always thought it was a pretty cool Idea.

 

Neo geo ports on the Snes and MD were pretty crap compared to the source material, trying to squeeeze then into much smaller carts. Jag would have the same problem with the bigger games as well, but some Neo Geo games such as magician lord, windjammers were similar in size to jag carts. around 48 megabits I believe.

 

instead of chasing ports here there and everywhere, could they not have just licensed a load of neo geo games in one go. The reasoning being that A ), it was games unavailable on machines already out, B ) Neo Geo was already seen as some sort of super powerful arcade machine, that mystique would rub off on the Jag if you were seeing it run the games that for ages were seen as games that other home consoles were incapable of running. C ) would have at least warrented a little interest from the japanese.

 

Whether it would have worked, well who knows.

 

As for Atari themselves, Club drive with a bit of time could have been done as a hard drivin / Race drivin game, somthing that never really got a decent home conversion and a decent version would show hpw far the jag was when compared to the 16 bit versions.

 

What about Stun Runner, I always thought the Jag was a perfect fit for that, and maybe Steel talons.

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Sega never really learned with the Dreamcast (as DC was used in a comparison earlier) Pal games like VF3, Sega Rally etc were rushed :-(..Sega's inital claim that ALL DC games would run in 60 FPS were soon swept under the table by Sega....

 

 

Then you had modern attempts on years old formula's like Soul Fighter, trying to be a modern take on the old school side scrolling beat-em-ups, Blue Stinger, which a lot of the press claimed belonged on the N64, ditto shadow Man etc..so not what was expected from Sega's 128 Bit System (And for the record:apparently it's 128 Bits where it needs to be... :-) ).

 

 

The online aspect was a fiasco here in UK, marketing angle of 6 Billion players became a laughing stock,Sega gambled on Online being next big thing, market said NO, we want DVD...

 

So it's not only Atari who could have handled things very differently...

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@AtariORdead :We've comments from both ATD and Imagitec in interviews and PR statements (Battlemorph and Freelancer on Jag CD) that give some insights into the mindset of Atari at the time..ATD saying Atari had seen 3DO Shockwave and wanting Battlemorph fully textured, had done so on an internal game at the time, it ran between 3-5 FPS, ATD held their ground, did 'limited' textures in Battlemorph, but kept the frame rate...

 

Imagitec describing Atari going into 'complete and utter mental mode' wanting Freelancer to feature loads of texture-mapping, light sourcing etc as that's what PS1/Saturn games were doing.

 

ATD describe Jag hardware (inc CD Drive) as being 'eclipsed' Imagitec that PS1 was much more capable, so we do know Atari were trying to get the Jaguar to punch above it's weight, even though key developers were trying to warn them off this idea.

 

There were a few Neo-Geo ports to MCD were there not? seem to recal them getting knocked at review, but were'nt things i paid that much attention to..

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And yes a Steel Talons 2000, along with Stun Runner 2000, Virus 2000, good few other updates that would of only been on Jaguar, played to strengths of hardware, i'd of loved to have seen..but you've only to look at how things broke down when Atari approached Owen Rubin about him doing Major Havoc 2000 for Jaguar, he said he'd work on it, but wanted some money up front, Atari would'nt agree on it so it never happened (though word has it Jeff Minter was approached, might have even signed up, but doubt work ever started, never heard Jeff himself say he'd started coding it).

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There were a few Mega cd Neo geo ports, and a big part of the problem was CD load times. I mean even the Neo Geo CD versions were shadows of the Cartridge versions.

 

Part of this is the size of the games and the animation involved in the fighting games. Those are not the games I would have used.

 

I would have went with the smaller sized neo geo carts that were of similar size to the Jags ( a lot of the neo geo carts were much bigger )

 

Sure its a little bit cheating to only use the smaller sized neo geo games but it would have given atari to go " look at this, we are running 2D games that are usually available on a hugely expensice arcade based system with cartridges that cost more than some actual sytems )

 

Sure we are cherry picking the smaller games, but its all about projecting an image.

 

That alongside Ironsoldier, Tempest, AVP, would have given the impression of a really powerfull machine.

 

Of course they really would have also had to stop the release of the likes of club drive etc and held them back as they really did more harm than good.

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Sticking with the theme, but rather than restarting from scratch..What If...Atari HAD stuck it out a bit longer?

Lets say Skyhammer had been commercially realeased, Freelancer, Black Ice, Legions Of The Undead, Dact.Joust etc been finished and released, Beyond Games had done AVP 2 and it made use of the VR Headset (systems 1st Killer App ?), basically Atari sorted it's shit out enough to turn the tide, even to a small degree where Jaguar was now cheap enough to warrant a purchase as a 2nd or 3rd machine and had enough quality, only on Jaguar games to justify a purchase.Would it still be seen in the same light?.
Did it perhaps just need a far greater balance of Triple A exclusive games, to have a better standing in the footnotes of history? or was it cluster f**ked from the start due to THAT 64 Bit marketing angle and no 3rd or 4th wave of quality software was going to undo so much damage caused as a result?.
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Battlezone 2000 was advertised in that 'Let The Games Begin' advert i seem to recal, heard claims Hoverstrike started out as Battlezone 2000 before being re-named.No idea if this is true, C.Flag 2 started out as Redline Racer (?) before Atari seemed to want a more familar name, ditto lynx Gauntlet 3 not starting out as a Gauntlet game, but then neither was Wii/PS2/PSP Silent Hill SM or Xbox Silent Hill:The Room, originally Silent Hill games, just adapted to make use of the name.

 

But then this is the Atari that did'nt want the solid £D Battlezone on Lynx-hence it becoming a hidden Easter Egg...

 

 

Best Battlezone reboot was Pandemic's 2 games on PC, all kinds of awesome, but then on far more powerful tech, so guess time was simply right then for a true, modern reboot.

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quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack

 

Forget it shruggs'. Save your breathe.

 

Though really you have an awesome skill set there. I mean wow. You should move here to the states and go to work for Fox News. They would snap you up in a heartbeat.

 

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Sticking with the theme, but rather than restarting from scratch..What If...Atari HAD stuck it out a bit longer?

Did it perhaps just need a far greater balance of Triple A exclusive games, to have a better standing in the footnotes of history?
or was it cluster f**ked from the start due to THAT 64 Bit marketing angle and no 3rd or 4th wave of quality software was going to undo so much damage caused as a result?.

 

 

1. Are we also assuming that Atari had more money and a robust game division ala Sega or Nintendo? Because that is the only way I could see this working out.

 

2. Err... I don't think better games alone would have been enough. It would need to be marketed to hard core gamers, like the 3DO was, instead of kids and there was no way for a company as small as Atari to sell consoles at a loss and survive because the absolute ceiling for Jaguar sales can't possibly be any more than 2 million, so there is no way to recoup losses from game sales.

 

3. I never saw the problem with the 64 bit campaign. "64 bit" was the only way to say 5th generation and more advanced hardware than SNES or Genesis. Both claims, by the way, were categorically true. I'm the first to admit that the Jaguar was the 2nd worst 5th gen console but a 5th gen console it undoubtedly was.

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I stand by my choice of words that perhaps his claims were perhaps optimistic as, they are quite a bold thing to say, it's one thing to praise an akward to develop for system like the Jaguar, by saying what it's nature offered you as a coder

 

Looking back it seems you were basing your choice of words on this testimony:

 

 

 

AI: Nope, not enough RAM in the jriscs.

 

Network link up: Nope, UART is bugged, needs nanny watching from a cpu to make work.

 

65000 colours: Odd number. 65536 is 16-bit, not 24 bit.

 

All the things being said 'nope' to were actually achieved(sans the 65k color part). Not optimism. I'm actually not sure where Battlesphere's A.I. went but from the other testimony in question its strongly implied it was in the gpu or dsp.

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Forget it shruggs'. Save your breathe.

 

Though really you have an awesome skill set there. I mean wow. You should move here to the states and go to work for Fox News. They would snap you up in a heartbeat.

 

 

Well, you do sound like an avid Fox News viewer. *Someone* is feeding shit into your head and making you repeat it elsewhere.

 

As for the 'nope' above, what a lot of bullshit. If you look in BS/BSG you'll see it's mostly 68000 - because *GASP* there isn't enough RAM in the JRISCS. This is one case where if you open enough debug windows you might possibly learn something.

 

The UART is being nanny watched. It's how you get around the bug.

 

You really are a sock puppet. Do try and think up some sentences on your own without so obviously being told what to write by others.

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Well, you do sound like an avid Fox News viewer. *Someone* is feeding shit into your head and making you repeat it elsewhere.

 

As for the 'nope' above, what a lot of bullshit. If you look in BS/BSG you'll see it's mostly 68000 - because *GASP* there isn't enough RAM in the JRISCS. This is one case where if you open enough debug windows you might possibly learn something.

 

The UART is being nanny watched. It's how you get around the bug.

 

 

Really? Awesome that you know how Scatologic got around the bug. Can you demonstrate this fix with the Doom source code? That would be fantastic to see!

 

As for the first statement being a bunch of 'bullshit' this is why we need fair and equal time. We really should get LeGrand in here.

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And actually you have a point there about the 68k. I don't think he specified which cpu's of the multiple selection he had to choose from on the Jaguar that he used for A.I. He did just say 'multiple cpu's'. I don't think he excluded the 68k specifically.

 

The point is this multiple cpu option made him feel he could not achieve the same results on the PSX.

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