JAGUAR, 3DO, AND THE CDI

[NeoGeoNinja]

This is about as factually accurate as your "the CD-i only has 20 games" statement earlier in the thread. Please go back under the rock you've been hiding under and spare us from this stupidity.

 

LOL. I think it was the 32-X. To be be fair though, the 32-X suffers from the same level of general consumer ignorance the other platforms we're discussing in this thread does; that the consoles have no games worth playing and only 10 titles were released per platform.

 

Just a shame that those who are so proud/defensive of Atari and the Jaguar aren't aware of the strengths and libraries available on other platforms (read: NeoGeo & 32-X).

 

I'm going to go ahead and presume people feel the same way with regards to the MegaCD too.

 

P.s. for what it's worth, I feel that Gunstar has returned with a better attitude overall. Obviously, I can't get on board with the Jaguar being better than a NeoGeo BUT... it's all subjective. After all, you can't play Tempest 2K, Iron Soldier & AVP on a NeoGeo

Edited March 8, 2015 by NeoGeoNinja

[phoenixdownita]

I have a few of "them" 32bits, and I confess at present I am enjoying FMV on my CDi, for better or for worse they are among the best FMV of the era. It does lack in RPG, shmup, arcades (except a rare few like Hotel Mario and The Apprentice], but also it had great gun games (or gun compat like Chaos Control) that still work to this day (of course no replay value there).

 

So told I can't get to like the 3DO ... nothing about the tech capabilities, just I can't relate to the games, none of it is the console fault, most of them I played on PC and better and the few exclusive are not so special to me.

 

The CD32 is interesting but not a must have by any means due to the poor support it received, very few exclusive none of which particularly memorable.

 

The FM Towns Marty also has a few notable games but in the end I really don't play it that much.

 

PC-FX is a quirky one too, too few titles and "Pia Carrot He Yokuso" is overrated (rent a porn please), but there are like 5 games worth looking and playing.

 

Regarding the Jag it's got a few interesting titles (a handful, mind you) and that's it, not much else to say, another side note in the history of gaming.

 

PS1 and Sat we all know what they are good for: Sat for 2D and JRPG (unfortunately many untranslated), PS1 for the 3D of that time (mind me they didn't age that well but so didn't I).

[JagChris]

I have a few of "them" 32bits, and I confess at present I am enjoying FMV on my CDi, for better or for worse they are among the best FMV of the era. It does lack in RPG, shmup, arcades (except a rare few like Hotel Mario and The Apprentice], but also it had great gun games (or gun compat like Chaos Control) that still work to this day (of course no replay value there).

 

So told I can't get to like the 3DO ... nothing about the tech capabilities, just I can't relate to the games, none of it is the console fault, most of them I played on PC and better and the few exclusive are not so special to me.

 

The CD32 is interesting but not a must have by any means due to the poor support it received, very few exclusive none of which particularly memorable.

 

The FM Towns Marty also has a few notable games but in the end I really don't play it that much.

 

PC-FX is a quirky one too, too few titles and "Pia Carrot He Yokuso" is overrated (rent a porn please), but there are like 5 games worth looking and playing.

 

Regarding the Jag it's got a few interesting titles (a handful, mind you) and that's it, not much else to say, another side note in the history of gaming.

 

PS1 and Sat we all know what they are good for: Sat for 2D and JRPG (unfortunately many untranslated), PS1 for the 3D of that time (mind me they didn't age that well but so didn't I).

 

 

Well.. you have come to the right forum. The crowd here definitely has the kool-aid you'll be liking.

[NeoGeoNinja]

Well.. you have come to the right forum. The crowd here definitely has the kool-aid you'll be liking.

 

What does this mean?

 

That we don't worship failed platforms, blow technical matters out of proportion and treat said platforms like some long-dead mythical presence still awaiting to rise and take control of it's rightful kingdom? That we look at things objectively and enjoy things for what they are as opposed to constantly living and preaching from the shadows about what could have been?

 

If that's what you mean then, yeah... we have the right kool-aid for this member: Grape, Sanity & Melon flavour. Although, you have to order it. It's not something you can just happen across or find by yourself.

[Gunstar]

I no longer own a Neo (sold my cab) and when I did own one, I didn't have any of the fighting games as I'm not really into those. There are plenty of excellent Neo Geo games that aren't fighters. Metal Slug series, Baseball Stars 2, Puzzle Bobble, Neo Turf Masters, Magical Drop 2/3, Shock Troopers and most of the shooters to name a handful.

 

The Neo Geo being successful isn't a delusion, games were produced for it for 14 years and IMO still stand the test of time even in today's 3D hi-def age.

From the titles mention only MS and ST catch my attention. I also remember some platformer looking game where the character looked like a Wizard, I was interested in it too. I may look into getting a Neo CD system, I can't attempt to start a collection of carts that cost hundreds though, even if we are only talking about a few.

 

What Neo-Geo did right is throwing tons of memory into the cartridges. If the Jag could have cartridge games as large things would be different with it too, unlike the jag CD, the carts don't have to use extra Jag ram. But looking at specs of the processors, both have a 68000 running at comparable speeds, neo has Z80, jag has 4 other processors, 380 sprites on the Neo, the Jag's blitter can throw around at least that much, i just downloaded a demo that's says it's running 110,000 sprites per second, and it looks like it. The jag has more ram, so I see no reason the Jag couldn't easily keep pace with Neo Geo games if it's cartridges could be as huge. Even with the CD unit using up ram, the Jag still has more left over than the Neo, So i see no reason the Jag couldn't have any of the Neo's games ported running from CD and be just as good at least, if quality ports. So I honestly can't see why you don't see the Jag as being able to keep up with the neo in 2D muscle. I could see your point if we forget about the Jag CD, since the Jag can only have 6MB carts, so maybe comparing the Jag CD and Neo-Geo CD is the way to go.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Gunstar

[JagChris]

 

What does this mean?

 

That we don't worship failed platforms, blow technical matters out of proportion and treat said platforms like some long-dead mythical presence still awaiting to rise and take control of it's rightful kingdom? That we look at things objectively and enjoy things for what they are as opposed to constantly living and preaching from the shadows about what could have been?

 

If that's what you mean then, yeah... we have the right kool-aid for this member: Grape, Sanity & Melon flavour. Although, you have to order it. It's not something you can just happen across or find by yourself.

 

Sanity and objectivity lol ok. Go preach it on the mountain brotha!

[Gunstar]

This is about as factually accurate as your "the CD-i only has 20 games" statement earlier in the thread. Please go back under the rock you've been hiding under and spare us from this stupidity.

Actually, I think it's about your reading comprehension as i was refer to the 32X very clearly. I openly admit a lot of ignorance about the CD-i because i have never owned one, but I do know that my point was it's not a traditional video game console so i said I wouldn't consider it for this thread's subject choices. I stand by that.

[Papa]

They're all pretty fun in one way or another! Pending they still work, and your internet is out (no DLC or logging in to your Windows, 360, PS3, PS4, XboxOne games..), and your 360 just went RROD, or your PS3 BSOD, or your PS4 won't connect to PSN, or you just want to play a fun game that's not drinking your soul or replacing your life while requiring a headset, subscription, and a portable urinal!!

 

It would be great to somehow port Neo-Geo stuff over to the Jag just to see what that would be like..

 

I think Neo-Geo is still pretty awesome (although the NeoGeoCD was a wreck).

[Gunstar]

They're all pretty fun in one way or another! Pending they still work, and your internet is out (no DLC or logging in to your Windows, 360, PS3, PS4, XboxOne games..), and your 360 just went RROD, or your PS3 BSOD, or your PS4 won't connect to PSN, or you just want to play a fun game that's not drinking your soul or replacing your life while requiring a headset, subscription, and a portable urinal!!

 

It would be great to somehow port Neo-Geo stuff over to the Jag just to see what that would be like..

 

I think Neo-Geo is still pretty awesome (although the NeoGeoCD was a wreck).

 

 

Do you mean the CD was a wreck commercially, or is it a wreck in implementation? Should i avoid the NeoGeoCD altogether as a cheap alternative to the original? How many of the original titles made it to the CD? How many non-fighting games?

Edited March 8, 2015 by Gunstar

[NeoGeoNinja]

From the titles mention only MS and ST catch my attention. I also remember some platformer looking game where the character looked like a Wizard, I was interested in it too. I may look into getting a Neo CD system, I can't attempt to start a collection of carts that cost hundreds though, even if we are only talking about a few.

 

What Neo-Geo did right is throwing tons of memory into the cartridges. If the Jag could have cartridge games as large things would be different with it too, unlike the jag CD, the carts don't have to use extra Jag ram. But looking at specs of the processors, both have a 68000 running at comparable speeds, neo has Z80, jag has 4 other processors, 380 sprites on the Neo, the Jag's blitter can throw around at least that much, i just downloaded a demo that's says it's running 110,000 sprites per second, and it looks like it. The jag has more ram, so I see no reason the Jag couldn't easily keep pace with Neo Geo games if it's cartridges could be as huge. Even with the CD unit using up ram, the Jag still has more left over than the Neo, So i see no reason the Jag couldn't have any of the Neo's games ported running from CD and be just as good at least, if quality ports. So I honestly can't see why you don't see the Jag as being able to keep up with the neo in 2D muscle. I could see your point if we forget about the Jag CD, since the Jag can only have 6MB carts, so maybe comparing the Jag CD and Neo-Geo CD is the way to go.

 

From a conversation I had with (I think?) Zerosquare... or someone else in the know, a short while ago, it was suggested that Bank Switching could be wholly possible on the Jaguar, meaning that larger titles could also be possible. Potentially, NeoGeo games.

 

Please also bear in mind that the way the NeoGeo handles games is different again, using 2x separate boards in any one cart and an entirely separate sound processor. I'm out of my depth when it comes to technicalities unfortunately, but I'm sure the underlying structure of the Neo is the key to it's continued improvement, expansion and longevity (high level productions still being made for it today).

[NeoGeoNinja]

I think Neo-Geo is still pretty awesome (although the NeoGeoCD was a wreck).

 

Do you mean the CD was a wreck commercially, or is it a wreck in implementation? Should i avoid the NeoGeoCD altogether as a cheap alternative to the original? How many of the original titles made it to the CD? How many non-fighting games?

 

Plenty of non-fighting games on the NeoCD Gunstar. If anything, it was the fact that the demands of the fighting games, SNK's focus and growth concerning their fighting games and their updates is what levied the most criticism towards the NeoCD. The machine was fine with undertaking the initial fighters, but as the amount of characters, animation, overall complexity increased, the NeoCD - in terms of available RAM/Memory, wasn't able to keep up.

 

However, the NeoGeo CD is more than ample at undertaking the many non-fighters the NeoGeo received and many consider it a great, viable and more economic alternative go the Home Cart system and even the overall financial layout for an MVS set-up.

 

The majority of people will advise you to undertake an MVS based machine (consolised or cabinet) and to collect the MUCH cheaper MVS carts - identical to the Home Carts. I'm not at all inclined to disagree with them, however, don't let any perceived negativity put you off a NeoCD for non-fighting game gaming.

[JagChris]

They're all pretty fun in one way or another! Pending they still work, and your internet is out (no DLC or logging in to your Windows, 360, PS3, PS4, XboxOne games..), and your 360 just went RROD, or your PS3 BSOD, or your PS4 won't connect to PSN, or you just want to play a fun game that's not drinking your soul or replacing your life while requiring a headset, subscription, and a portable urinal!!

 

It would be great to somehow port Neo-Geo stuff over to the Jag just to see what that would be like..

 

I think Neo-Geo is still pretty awesome (although the NeoGeoCD was a wreck).

 

 

Haha this was pretty funny.

[phoenixdownita]

I agree about the fun factor for the Neo Geo.

Got an AES, a top loader CD and CDZ (both modded with a language switch, albeit now obsolete due to available UniBIOS 3.2 which I do not plan on installing for now at least).

 

The AES only gets played with one of those 161-in-1 MVS multi and related MVS adapter as it is way too expensive to buy actual carts. Install a UniBIOS in it and you're good to go.

 

The CDZ is faster than the top loader CD and it shows in the figthers games but it is still no picnic, hence I opted for an AES when I want to scratch that hitch.

The rest of the library (read not fighters, which alone do account for about 35%) when available in CD format is pretty quick to load (generally around 30sec) and works very well.

 

There's a few games that are MVS only, but between a CD system and the 161-in-1 you're pretty much covered, I believe there's a couple missing from the 161-in-1 that are MVS exclusives.

 

I really like the arcade style of those games, they all are pick up and play and they cover many genres of that era. No FPS, 3D, RPG (there's 1 jap in this category being translated), Adventures obviously. But fighters, shmups, puzzles, sports, racers, run & gun, couple of platformers etc...

Edited March 8, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Atlantis]

All non-fighters are great to Neo Geo. For die hard games that you an play forever, get Magicial Lord and Viewpoint. They will give you a lot of playing time for the money, and hard games are back in fashion! (easy games are for cell phone-zombies.)

The beat em ups you better check out before you buy them, since the quality has a large variety from shit to great. A good fighter is Double dragon, it is fun, easy controls, humorous, and you can double jump which adds lots of air strategy, and this game you can find on the Neo cd for 20 bucks or something.

[NeoGeoNinja]

The beat em ups you better check out before you buy them, since the quality has a large variety from shit to great. A good fighter is Double dragon, it is fun, easy controls, humorous, and you can double jump which adds lots of air strategy, and this game you can find on the Neo cd for 20 bucks or something.

 

There really aren't any truly 'shit' fighters on the NeoGeo. Like you have stated about Double Dragon, almost all the Neo's fighters has its own unique flavour to offer. If anything, it's the original fathers of certain series' (i.e. Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting) that haven't aged too well, but everything from Fatal Fury 2, Art of Fighting 2, Samurai Shodown I onwards are all great.

 

FWIW though, Double Dragon is definitely nearer to the bottom of the pile of a great library of fighters...

[+madman]

 

LOL. I think it was the 32-X. To be be fair though, the 32-X suffers from the same level of general consumer ignorance the other platforms we're discussing in this thread does; that the consoles have no games worth playing and only 10 titles were released per platform.

 

Just a shame that those who are so proud/defensive of Atari and the Jaguar aren't aware of the strengths and libraries available on other platforms (read: NeoGeo & 32-X).

 

I'm going to go ahead and presume people feel the same way with regards to the MegaCD too.

 

P.s. for what it's worth, I feel that Gunstar has returned with a better attitude overall. Obviously, I can't get on board with the Jaguar being better than a NeoGeo BUT... it's all subjective. After all, you can't play Tempest 2K, Iron Soldier & AVP on a NeoGeo

The 32X had a total of 36 US releases, including a couple CD games that worked with or without the 32X adapter. There were I think 2 Euro exclusives, 1JP and 1 Brazilian Tec Toy release. So, 40 in total. The 32X suffered from similar hardware issues as did the Jaguar, most games barely used any of the 32X's capabilities and instead relied mostly on the good ole Genesis. This is quite evident with a number of games. However, there are still some excellent games for the platform. There are also a lot of duds and many "how is this any better than just a regular Genesis?" releases.

 

While the Sega/Mega CD is mostly remembered by the masses for having a bunch of crappy FMV games, there are some gems to be had on that platform. Though the RPGs tend to cost quite a bit these days.

 

I think it's subjective to say that one platform is superior to another, but objectively the Neo Geo was orders of magnitude more successful than the Jaguar. That's a fact.

 

From the titles mention only MS and ST catch my attention. I also remember some platformer looking game where the character looked like a Wizard, I was interested in it too. I may look into getting a Neo CD system, I can't attempt to start a collection of carts that cost hundreds though, even if we are only talking about a few.

 

What Neo-Geo did right is throwing tons of memory into the cartridges. If the Jag could have cartridge games as large things would be different with it too, unlike the jag CD, the carts don't have to use extra Jag ram. But looking at specs of the processors, both have a 68000 running at comparable speeds, neo has Z80, jag has 4 other processors, 380 sprites on the Neo, the Jag's blitter can throw around at least that much, i just downloaded a demo that's says it's running 110,000 sprites per second, and it looks like it. The jag has more ram, so I see no reason the Jag couldn't easily keep pace with Neo Geo games if it's cartridges could be as huge. Even with the CD unit using up ram, the Jag still has more left over than the Neo, So i see no reason the Jag couldn't have any of the Neo's games ported running from CD and be just as good at least, if quality ports. So I honestly can't see why you don't see the Jag as being able to keep up with the neo in 2D muscle. I could see your point if we forget about the Jag CD, since the Jag can only have 6MB carts, so maybe comparing the Jag CD and Neo-Geo CD is the way to go.

Magician Lord is the game you're thinking of, it was one of the launch titles.

 

I can't see why the Jag can't keep up with the Neo in 2D muscle because none of the games prove it. Power Drive Rally is a great Jag game, but it doesn't look as good as Neo Drift Out or Thrash Rally. Rayman looks excellent on the Jag, but doesn't come anywhere near the amount of enemies on screen as something like Metal Slug. Raiden looks good too, but can't compete with Blazing Star or Pulstar.

 

I have zero programming experience with the Jaguar, but I've read from multiple sources over the years that bus contention is an issue with the Jaguar. There was a thread recently about music slowing down in Wolfenstein that demonstrated this issue. I think one of the reasons the Neo is able to do what it does so well is that it used multiple buses. The 68k and z80 have their own buses, along with the graphics/sound ROMs. From what I recall the graphics ROMs are mapped directly to a video chip and the 68k never has to get involved with moving the graphics data around, it just tells the GPU what to do. It's been years since I've been into NG, but I believe that's how it works. I'm open to corrections if any of that is incorrect. Yes, large cart sizes help, but not if the underlying architecture can't process all the data coming in.

[Papa]

I just meant that the Neo-Geo CD took a frustratingly long time to load anything. Pulstar is the worst, I've heard. You can recap a Neo Geo and they sell cards to let you play MVS on AES. When I think of the Genesis and how awesome the arcade ports were and then how it blew my mind how different they really were (usually less color) when compared side by side, I am also reminded that the Neo Geo AES stuff was the ever tiniest ,barely noticeably, little bit different than the MVS. Mostly just a little less splashy stuff here and there due to a tiny bit less RAM.

 

I really like a lot of the fighters for it! Voltage Fighter Gowkaizer was one of my favs (lots of hot chicks in wedgie-ware), and the hack jobs like King of Gladiator are really fun (and Mai rips out her rack every time you blaze across the screen ). Some of the KOF series are better than others, if you can even tell them apart aside from the titles. Metal Slug is a great game, but the arcade demo screen is so annoying with the "AHHHH... AHHHHH. AHHHHH...AHHHHHH" ever repetitious death WAV screaming every couple of seconds. There are a LOT of faithful multicarts for those games, too. It seems that a lot of these carts start with Neo-Geo emulation and then work their way around other titles afterwards. I really loved League Bowling and Magician Lord back in the day. I still play them both in my arcade at times. League Bowling just never gets boring to me..

 

I'm sure the Jag could keep up (prolly the CD over carts, though)!

[phoenixdownita]

The NGCD does not take frustratingly long time to load anything .... except the fighters you can time that it's 30 sec and then the vast majority never loads again .... for fighters it is really too much as they load at every interlude, at every round and at every ending ..... it's not 30sec each time but still King of Fighters quickly becomes King of Loaders etc...

 

If you step aside all the fighters the load times are actually pretty reasonable compared to other CD based consoles .... it is by no mean fast but at the same time not that slow either ... obviously can't compete with instant on carts.

 

BTW MVS carts afaik had no RAM, just a hell of a lot of ROM up to 1Gbit = 128MBytes (there's a couple bigger than that).

The CD/CDZ actually has quite some RAM (7MB or so) split among the various subsystems as reported by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_Geo_CD#Technical_specifications

 

Anyway if you have the chance to pick up an AES and a CD (or CDZ) do it and you'll enjoy.

In 2015 is it mind blowing? No! Is it still good? Hell yeah!!!

[Austin]

The NGCD does not take frustratingly long time to load anything .... except the fighters you can time that it's 30 sec and then the vast majority never loads again .... for fighters it is really too much as they load at every interlude, at every round and at every ending ..... it's not 30sec each time but still King of Fighters quickly becomes King of Loaders etc...

 

The loading in Pulstar is nearly as bad as the later fighting games on the system. It's the exception to the rule though when it comes to action/shooting games on the system.

[BassGuitari]

Between the Jaguar, 3DO, and CD-i, I'd go 3DO. I think the 3DO has the best library of the three, and many games have absolutely stunning music (Super Street Fighter II Turbo and Doom, for example). Plus you can rip ISOs to CD-Rs and not even have to buy the games to play them on hardware...but the awesome tall game boxes make it worth it to collect real copies.

Jaguar would be #2. It's not a bad system, but it has fewer games I'd actually want to play than the 3DO does, and with some exceptions (Doom again, for example), the quality seems a little higher on the 3DO. The cost of the hardware and games is a turn-off as well.

 

CD-i has the novelty factor going for it and not much else.

[phoenixdownita]

According to here:

http://www.egameaddiction.com/neogeocd/loadtimes.html

 

The CDZ version is not exactly bad, even assuming the top loader doubles the times (which is not a given) it is still in bearable-land also it's so hard that you'll stay on a level for quite some time .... I may have played Pulstar on the 161-in-1 only and never really tried it again on the CD.

 

The point though stays, CD and CDZ are for everything but fighters (fighters only to take a cursory look) ... AES/CMVS for everything that you can put your hands on but basically mandatory for fighters ..... I am not even sure why they kept on making KOF from 94 to 99 on CD, the loading time gets worse and worse.

Edited March 9, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

Between the Jaguar, 3DO, and CD-i, I'd go 3DO. I think the 3DO has the best library of the three, and many games have absolutely stunning music (Super Street Fighter II Turbo and Doom, for example). Plus you can rip ISOs to CD-Rs and not even have to buy the games to play them on hardware...but the awesome tall game boxes make it worth it to collect real copies.

 

Jaguar would be #2. It's not a bad system, but it has fewer games I'd actually want to play than the 3DO does, and with some exceptions (Doom again, for example), the quality seems a little higher on the 3DO. The cost of the hardware and games is a turn-off as well.

 

CD-i has the novelty factor going for it and not much else.

For all 3 systems [3DO, CDi, JagCD] you can find "backups" CD that you can burn yourself so take that one out of the equation.

 

The same holds for Sega/32X CD, PCE CDROMROM [all variants Normal/Super/Arcade], PC-FX, FM Towns Marty, Amiga CDTV/CD32... no mods required at all. So those too don't really have the issue you may be referring too.

Edited March 9, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Punisher5.0]

What Neo-Geo did right is throwing tons of memory into the cartridges. If the Jag could have cartridge games as large things would be different with it too, unlike the jag CD, the carts don't have to use extra Jag ram. But looking at specs of the processors, both have a 68000 running at comparable speeds, neo has Z80, jag has 4 other processors, 380 sprites on the Neo, the Jag's blitter can throw around at least that much, i just downloaded a demo that's says it's running 110,000 sprites per second, and it looks like it. The jag has more ram, so I see no reason the Jag couldn't easily keep pace with Neo Geo games if it's cartridges could be as huge. Even with the CD unit using up ram, the Jag still has more left over than the Neo, So i see no reason the Jag couldn't have any of the Neo's games ported running from CD and be just as good at least, if quality ports. So I honestly can't see why you don't see the Jag as being able to keep up with the neo in 2D muscle. I could see your point if we forget about the Jag CD, since the Jag can only have 6MB carts, so maybe comparing the Jag CD and Neo-Geo CD is the way to go.

With the two systems you have to look at bottlenecks as well. This of course ways heavily in the AES favor. It may have less powerful processors and less ram but it was designed to make the most out of what it had. IIRC the cartridges on the Neo acted like it was part of the systems hardware and not an external medium.

 

Also don't forget that more powerful systems than the Jaguar had frames removed from ported fighters. Even the Saturn needed a ram cart for some of the games. The Neo CD needed several times more ram and it too had frames cut.

[+madman]

Also don't forget that more powerful systems than the Jaguar had frames removed from ported fighters. Even the Saturn needed a ram cart for some of the games. The Neo CD needed several times more ram and it too had frames cut.

This is due to the CD media, doesn't have anything to do with processing power, it has to do with RAM. The Neo Geo didn't need much RAM because data was accessed directly from the cart.

[Punisher5.0]