The Jaguar version of Rayman Conspiracy

[Lost Dragon]

So.....

 

After 6 pages, statements from Michel Ancel and Martyn Brown that confirm Sony really did not see 2D as being the aspect of the Playstation they wanted to promote and thus making the concept of paying to have a version on a platform that was never considered a rival in any shape or form rather questionable.....

 

2 'Official' PR Statements from Ubisoft themselves concerning the delay.....

 

And it's still tin foil hats at 500 paces/spam fritters for lunch my dear?

 

Or has common sense descended and the fact that in past 12 months so many publishers/developers have answered question of why game X was canned, why Games A-T never arrived on Jaguar, with simple fact that to them the Jaguar was 'Commercially Unviable'....

 

 

Pretty much answered just why Ubisoft would wait until other versions were ready?.

 

It's...it's the Fritters is'nt it?

 

:-)

[Andromeda Stardust]

Perhaps rather than question why the game was delayed, we should be thankful it came out at all? The majority of games released for the Jag and sold at retail probably did not break even on development costs. Jaguire was more of a train wreck than a successful console after all.

[Lost Dragon]

I've come to the conclusion that Jaguar sits up there with my Sega Mega CD purchase, both day 1's, based on magazine hype etc.Both found themselves 'victims' of a rapidly changing industry-MCD found itself faced with a future which was'nt sprite-scaling it seemed, but polygon 3D on console, cue the SFX and Sega VR chips.....for a while at least.

 

Jaguar with it's plain polys found itself facing a texture-mapped 3D world where it simply was'nt geared up to compete.

 

 

So after paying good money for both, i'm eternally thankful the likes of Rayman/AVP/Tempest 2000/Iron Solider etc landed on Jaguar and Final Fight SE/Terminator SE/Dune/Batman Returns etc landed on MCD as if not? they'd both of been utter disaster purchases for myself.

[+madman]

Fritters?! I miss the corn fritters we used to get at Brown's Chicken BITD.

Did you grow up in Illinois? I worked at a Brown's Chicken during high school. I ate WAY too many of those fritters!

[+save2600]

Did you grow up in Illinois? I worked at a Brown's Chicken during high school. I ate WAY too many of those fritters!

Yes, I did! I think ALL the Brown's Chicken are gone now, except maybe the one in Waukegan?

 

[+madman]

Yes, I did! I think ALL the Brown's Chicken are gone now, except maybe the one in Waukegan?

 

browns-chicken-pasta-logo.jpg corn.jpg

They've still got a number of stores, according to their website. The last one I saw was downtown, underground in a train station. That company really fell off the map.

[Schmudde]

They've still got a number of stores, according to their website. The last one I saw was downtown, underground in a train station. That company really fell off the map.

 

Okay, I'll contribute to some good ole fashioned thread hijacking.

 

I grew up downstate, but wasn't the franchise's decline a direct result of the Brown's Chicken massacre? Or is that just a simplistic reduction of their larger problems?

 

Speaking of massacre, I really killed it on Rayman last night (see what I did there, I just tied it all together).

 

/Schmüdde

[+madman]

 

Okay, I'll contribute to some good ole fashioned thread hijacking.

 

I grew up downstate, but wasn't the franchise's decline a direct result of the Brown's Chicken massacre? Or is that just a simplistic reduction of their larger problems?

 

Speaking of massacre, I really killed it on Rayman last night (see what I did there, I just tied it all together).

 

/Schmüdde

I think it was multiple factors, certainly the massacre was one of them. I worked there right around when the massacre happened until the fall of 1995 when I went off to college. Even as a kid, I remember thinking of how bland the offerings were compared to what KFC was doing at the time. We would even do food trades w/the KFC down the block, which was hilarious. Other than the addition of cakes, there were no new menu items or limited time only items during the time I was there. We did a TON of catering business which helped. I remember driving past my old store in college and seeing signs advertising Italian beef sandwiches and I think sausages too, looking at their website now it seems they've added some other dishes, but the damage is done. I had a lot of fun at that job, despite how crappy the work actually was. But that's part of being a teenager.

 

One interesting thing that happened is there was an execution scheduled at Stateville and they sent a flyer to surrounding stores saying not to accept any orders from the prison system because Brown's didn't want to be serving a last meal to whoever was to be executed. I wish I had saved that.

[Atlantis]

 

Okay, I'll contribute to some good ole fashioned thread hijacking.

 

I grew up downstate, but wasn't the franchise's decline a direct result of the Brown's Chicken massacre? Or is that just a simplistic reduction of their larger problems?

 

Speaking of massacre, I really killed it on Rayman last night (see what I did there, I just tied it all together).

 

/Schmüdde

Terrible, seven killed. I checked it up on wiki:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown's_Chicken_massacre

 

yes, the business suffered hard from the massacre, no wonders.

 

Better play Rayman and forget the terrible world out there.

[+save2600]

 

I grew up downstate, but wasn't the franchise's decline a direct result of the Brown's Chicken massacre?

 

Lived in Wheeling (town over) when that happened. Uggh. Yes, definitely contributed, but stores had already been closing before then. Sad, sad stuff.

 

Re: the thread hijacking… LD is the one that brought up fritters! lol

[+madman]

 

Lived in Wheeling (town over) when that happened. Uggh. Yes, definitely contributed, but stores had already been closing before then. Sad, sad stuff.

Strangely, the "new" Palatine Brown's is one of the few locations still surviving. The only other store other than the downtown location that I remember seeing recently was in Highland Park, but that turned into a Taco Bell a few years ago. The one I worked at is still around as well. This concludes the thread jacking

[Lost Dragon]

http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DcLKAZQsbvp8&sa=U&ved=0CD0QtwIwCWoVChMIxLnPysaTxgIVRI3bCh3NFgDA&usg=AFQjCNGPWqE5bJb-f8Hfsgqtj-Cx13fHRA

 

Lovely Jubbly Fritters.....

[Klove]

Hmmm.. This is interesting, actually. I remember Rayman only ever originally being on the Jaguar at one point in time. That is was never destined for another platform. I remember going to that Atari offices back in the day and Bill Rehbock showing the game to me. It was still unfinished, but far along in the development cycle. I recall the game being an Atari exclusive. At this point in time, there was no mention of any other platforms at all.

 

What I believe happened.. and am pretty sure it went this way, is… "I think Atari took a BIG payment from Sony in order for it to release on their PSX first."

 

When I originally saw the game , I remember thinking.. "This game would DEFINITELY bolster an Atari comeback."

 

Around the same time, I recall being over in England and visiting ATD and them showing me… I forget.. some other Atari CD game that was still in development. With it, I remember thinking.. "This is the last thing Atari needs."

 

I forget the name, I'm afraid.

 

- Ken

[Bill Loguidice]

Hmmm.. This is interesting, actually. I remember Rayman only ever originally being on the Jaguar at one point in time. That is was never destined for another platform. I remember going to that Atari offices back in the day and Bill Rehbock showing the game to me. It was still unfinished, but far along in the development cycle. I recall the game being an Atari exclusive. At this point in time, there was no mention of any other platforms at all.

 

What I believe happened.. and am pretty sure it went this way, is… "I think Atari took a BIG payment from Sony in order for it to release on their PSX first."

 

When I originally saw the game , I remember thinking.. "This game would DEFINITELY bolster an Atari comeback."

 

Around the same time, I recall being over in England and visiting ATD and them showing me… I forget.. some other Atari CD game that was still in development. With it, I remember thinking.. "This is the last thing Atari needs."

 

I forget the name, I'm afraid.

 

- Ken

 

I'm sorry, but I just don't think any of that makes sense for the litany of reasons already discussed in this thread. The Jaguar was clearly no threat to anyone at that point. One game, no matter how lovely, was not going to make any appreciable difference either. Sony would have no reason to specifically undermine Atari, and that would of course be ignoring the fact that the title also was made for and appeared on the Sega Saturn just a little over a month after the Jaguar and PS1 versions. So either Sony and Sega both made special points to pay off Ubisoft to delay a game on a Jaguar platform that didn't even break 100,000 units sold at that point because it was somehow a threat, or it was Ubisoft who realized they had a special game on their hands that needed to be released on more than one (epically struggling) platform, a strategy they would coincidentally repeat with Rayman Legends in 2013. So really, which theory makes the most sense here?

[Goochman]

I think the more likely story is Sony paid Ubisoft to allow the PS1 version to be the first and delay all others.

[Bill Loguidice]

I think the more likely story is Sony paid Ubisoft to allow the PS1 version to be the first and delay all others.

 

Sure, why not, because that few day to month or so headstart in the US really made a monumental difference in the fortunes of all three platforms the game released on. That's why the PlayStation console sales in the US doubled the Jaguar's lifetime sales in just a few months, right, because it got Rayman at the same time as the Jaguar and a little over a month sooner than the Saturn? (let's ignore the fact that the PlayStation already sold over 2 million units in Japan before its US launch and just repeat the mantra that Sony was CLEARLY desperate to undermine the Jaguar any way it could).

[KappaGuy99]

I don't think Klove's memory is unreasonable. He remembers Rayman being a Jaguar exclusive, for a time. When he saw the game, he thought it would bolster a comeback. That might be unreasonable, but not out of sorts for an Atari fan. Now, possibly, his memory is wrong.

 

On the other hand, I don't think it's unreasonable that:

 

1) There may have been a deal, at one point, between Atari and Ubsoft for Rayman be a Jaguar exclusive game.

 

2) Atari, at one point, wanted a platformer with a kid-friendly mascot. Said deal would have involved a legal contract, I'm guessing, and if there was a deal, we don't know when it was struck. See point #1.

 

3) Sony, a large electronics company not yet in the video game business, might have tried to put the squeeze on its newfound competitors, even the sick/lame/dying competitors like Atari.

 

4) A "LARGE" payment to Atari might have been a relatively small payment to Sony. I can't stress this point enough. I believe that even 3 to 6 months after making this deal (if it was truly ever even made) Atari would have been willing to "sell" it for cash, seeing how poorly things were going. Atari was desperate for cash throughout the last months of its life. Sony certainly had cash, which Atari had little of. If the deal was for cash, and not stock and other "assets" Atari may well have jumped at the deal.

 

5) For the reasons that have been stated, Atari probably saw that one game was not going to save the system or the company, so why not take a payment from Sony if Sony offered one? Even if it wasn't as much as they had spent on the deal in the first place, they may have been willing to forgo the agreement for at least some cash.

 

6) It doesn't make sense to me that Sony would pay Ubisoft to break an exclusivity deal with Atari. It's possible, but I think it would take more money to do this than it would to entice Atari to give up its deal. And I don't think it would have more than a few million dollars to entice Atari to give up Rayman exclusivity. That is a "big" payment to Atari and it's pocket change for Sony. What is the benefit? Sony weakens a competitor and gets a 2D platform game with a fair amount of buzz.

 

Seems pretty plausible to this armchair CEO.

[Bill Loguidice]

I'd love to know where this idea of Sony paying Atari even one penny came about. It's completely ridiculous, particularly for a Sony that was introducing a console in the US that in the past year already sold two million consoles in Japan and already had plenty of pre-launch momentum, buzz, and third party relationships at the ready. Of course, this is the Jaguar we're talking about in this thread, so crazy theories are of course to be expected.

 

Also, while Sony was new to creating their own consoles, they were well experienced in creating computers, computer software, and console software prior to the PlayStation's Japanese debut, and were also of course no slouch in consumer electronics in general. That explains (the experience) at least part of why the PlayStation's worldwide execution was so inspired.

[Lost Dragon]

With no offence meant to views of fellow posters:

 

Sony never viewed the Jaguar as a serious contender, let alone threat.

 

Michel Ancel and Martyn Brown alone have confirmed Sony really did not see 2D as being the aspect of the Playstation they wanted to promote, so there's simply no logic to any suggestion they'd want a 2D game released before or same time as other platforms and thus pony up money to ensure that happened.

 

Bill Rehbock , i really wish i had managed to interview via Skype year or so ago, so many claims of his i'd love to put to him, starting with the pantomine fiasco of Jaguar CD Battlechess, Interplay saying it was'nt headed to Jag CD, Bill saying Ohh yes it was and coding had started etc etc.

 

Can someone point me in the direction of where it's even been suggested there's a quote etc that indicates Sony paid Ubisoft anything to ensure Playstation had Rayman as well as the other formats?

[Lost Dragon]

Rayman started 'life' as an animation demo on the Atari ST, but then Xcom started life as Laser Squad 2 on the Atari ST, PS1 Medievil started out on the Sega Saturn, Malice was to be an Xbox exclusive, Croc started out as a tech demo on Saturn, yet was released on PS1 1st, Saturn version followed...etc etc.

 

Gaming history simply littered with examples of games changing platforms, released later or not at all, due to how a platform was seen to be performing at retail or how newer platforms were expected to fare...

 

 

 

 

We know from countless coder/publisher interviews that Jaguar simply=commercially unviable platform, harsh, but the reality of the situation.

 

 

As Bill L.said earlier, you'd have to throw in the idea that Sega were also in on this deal and they paid Ubisoft to ensure Saturn version appeared no later/Jaguar version no earlier etc etc.

 

I'd of thought if anyone wanted it 1st as a showcase game, it'd been Sega as they were pushing 2D aspects of Saturn, Sony saw 2D as yesterdays news.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[NeoGeoNinja]

Most likely reality of what happened concerns simple logic and timelines.

 

At the time when Rayman began serious development, the Jaguar was the target platform. However, upon seeing completion in sight, it was probably plainly obvious that the forthcoming Saturn & PS1 were receiving all the attention and, ultimately, would be the 'way to go'.

 

No doubt, time was then dedicated to getting PS1 & SAT versions of the game ported over to CD format for both consoles and, realistically, it is possible the Jaguar version was put on hold pending the releases of the obviously more important SEGA & Sony versions.

 

Can't have been too difficult for a company like Ubi to keep tabs on the Jaguar's performance whilst development was taking place. Only to find that, in the near future, the consoles that will be introducing Daytona USA, Virtua Fighter and Ridge Racer into the living room, are just around the corner.

[Atlantis]

I remember Rayman only ever originally being on the Jaguar at one point in time. [...] At this point in time, there was no mention of any other platforms at all.

 

What I believe happened.. and am pretty sure it went this way, is… "I think Atari took a BIG payment from Sony in order for it to release on their PSX first."

If a game ever was said to be exclusive there must have been a contract written for that.

 

If one part of the contract decides to break a written contract, this often results in them paying the other part money. Plain and simple... if!

 

Now, do we have that written contract to rest our eyes on? No.

 

Edited June 17, 2015 by Atlantis

[Lost Dragon]

It's an Atari thing...right?

 

I mean Rayman is fast approaching Jaguar Quake levels of 'Good Grief!' :-)

 

To put it in perspective here:

 

Playstation never saw Quake released, claims were hardware could'nt handle it...that was put to be by Hammerhead and Quake 2 appearing.Now it turns out there was a PS1 version by Lobotomy, better than Saturn version even, no publisher wanted it as market had moved on etc etc.

 

People accept what's been stated by Lobotomy themselves, chalked game up as a 'would of been nice to see, but....'

 

Meanwhile over in Jaguar community, peoplewere once quoting Carmack as proof of Jaguar Quake started and yet only parts of the quotes so far match what's actually been found.....

 

Rayman meanwhile did appear, which is more than can be said of the 32X version and yet because it had a delay and appeared on more than 1 platform, statements from numerous sources giving reason/s for delay, Sony's attitude towards the 2D genre period seem to account for nothing.

 

A very odd affair indeed.

[Bill Loguidice]

As Bill L.said earlier, you'd have to throw in the idea that Sega were also in on this deal and they paid Ubisoft to ensure Saturn version appeared no later/Jaguar version no earlier etc etc.

 

I'd of thought if anyone wanted it 1st as a showcase game, it'd been Sega as they were pushing 2D aspects of Saturn, Sony saw 2D as yesterdays news.

 

The other factor with the Sega thing we have to consider is that they had a series of platform games ready to go at US launch/launch window (first six months), including Bug! and Clockwork Knight, which were soon followed by the somewhat Rayman-like Astal. It's logical that it would have been highly unlikely for Sega to have been interested in giving Ubisoft any incentive, financial or otherwise, to ensure Rayman was released on their platform. As with the PlayStation version, this was almost certainly a smart business decision by Ubisoft, which again we saw with the most recent Rayman release that was originally a Wii U exclusive. No payoffs or conspiracies are needed here.

 

As for Sony, their early aversion to 2D was one of the inspired factors in the success of their launch year. Their hardware was 3D-centric and they had a high percentage of software that played up that fact, making the PlayStation seem like the freshest hardware platform in years, "finally" marking the true shift from sprites to polygons. I think Sony thought something like Jumping Flash! would have had far more impact than something like Rayman. While Jumping Flash! was indeed inspired and the far more original creation, it didn't exactly set sales records, while Rayman went on to become a top seller on the platform. The safe money would have been on Jumping Flash! being the far bigger hit over Rayman, and, even though it didn't work out that way, it again seems perfectly logical that Sony wouldn't have thought otherwise at the time, so no reason to incentivize anyone over a new, unproven IP like Rayman, no matter how lovely the visuals.

[Lynxpro]

 

I'm sorry, but I just don't think any of that makes sense for the litany of reasons already discussed in this thread. The Jaguar was clearly no threat to anyone at that point. One game, no matter how lovely, was not going to make any appreciable difference either. Sony would have no reason to specifically undermine Atari, and that would of course be ignoring the fact that the title also was made for and appeared on the Sega Saturn just a little over a month after the Jaguar and PS1 versions. So either Sony and Sega both made special points to pay off Ubisoft to delay a game on a Jaguar platform that didn't even break 100,000 units sold at that point because it was somehow a threat, or it was Ubisoft who realized they had a special game on their hands that needed to be released on more than one (epically struggling) platform, a strategy they would coincidentally repeat with Rayman Legends in 2013. So really, which theory makes the most sense here?

 

Sega of America thought the Jag was enough of a threat to push the 32X option despite all of the drama that escapade caused with Sega of Japan…not to mention amongst Sega fans caught between deciding to buy it or hold out for the Saturn.