The Atari interview discussion thread

[Savetz]

Tim Huntington: Krazy Kopter, Fire Chief, Adventures of Robin Hood
https://ataripodcast.libsyn.com/antic-interview-430-tim-huntington-krazy-kopter-fire-chief-adventures-of-robin-hood

Tim Huntington was an Atari game developer based in the United Kingdom. He programmed Krazy Kopter, The Adventures of Robin Hood, and Fire Chief, which were published by English Software; and Despatch Rider, which was published by Mastertronic.

This interview took place on December 23, 2021.

Video version of this interview

Tim's segment on Look North West UK TV

[+Psionic]

On 12/4/2021 at 7:03 PM, Savetz said:

Jack Verson: Action Quest, Ghost Encounters, Journey to the Planets, Gyruss

As part of On-Time Software, Jack programmed the Atari versions of Gyruss, James Bond 007, and perhaps other games, published by Parker Brothers.

You claim that Jack programmed the Atari version of Gyruss, but you said the same thing about Joe Hellesen when you interviewed him back in 2018.

 

It's worth noting that several online sources attribute the C64 port of Gyruss to Hellesen, which he confirmed when I spoke with him personally back in 2009.  I brought this to your attention back when you posted your interview with him and asked you to follow up with him and clear up the confusion, but you never did to the best of my knowledge.

 

Now would be a good time to contact one or both of these guys and straighten this out once and for all.  It also would help to ask Verson straight up which version of Mr. Do!'s Castle he worked on, instead of us just speculating.

[_The Doctor__]

Maybe because Gyruss was kind of sort of programmed twice... so it's possible both did their own things... that's not uncommon. As for speculation, that leads to questions to ask people when you finally talk or interview them...

[+Psionic]

1 hour ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Maybe because Gyruss was kind of sort of programmed twice... so it's possible both did their own things... that's not uncommon.

Actually, quite the contrary.  Different versions of the exact same game being programmed by different people to actual or near completion is very uncommon.  In the rare case of Gyruss for the Atari computers, there is indeed an alternate version.  But that was developed by Anthony Weber and we already know the story with that version.

 

This isn't a question of alternate versions existing.  It's a question of a programmer telling me he worked on the Commodore version of a game and then apparently telling someone else he worked on the Atari one.  And then a second programmer telling that someone else that he did the Atari version.  These guys were all working together, so someone's memory is off.  Something is clearly amiss here, but until I said something, no one (including you) seems to have picked up on it.  You apparently still don't.

 

1 hour ago, _The Doctor__ said:

As for speculation, that leads to questions to ask people when you finally talk or interview them...

What the hell are you talking about?  Both of the individuals in question have already been interviewed.  There should be no speculation at this point. The questions I'm asking (which are obvious ones that any thinking person would ask) should already have been answered in the podcast interview.

[Lostdragon]

6 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Maybe because Gyruss was kind of sort of programmed twice... so it's possible both did their own things... that's not uncommon. As for speculation, that leads to questions to ask people when you finally talk or interview them...

I only dabbled with crude interviews for a brief while myself back in the day, but the process really opened my eyes as to why you never go off single sources. 

 

 

After this one went live:

 

https://shinobiman.proboards.com/thread/9878/andrew-holdroyd-desert-exclusive-interview

 

I had people from the Kremlin (coding group, not Russia itself ?) contact me saying Andrew never touched the Master System version of Desert Strike. 

 

 

From there, the whole investigation into Jane Whittaker threw up a whole new world and one in which Jason Kingsley of Rebellion Software claimed to of coded Star Raiders on the A8 and took credit for the 3 seperate species campaigns in Jaguar AVP, something Purple Hampton says he and his team were responsible for. 

 

 

An initial interview can often just be the start of a much deeper investigation. 

 

[_The Doctor__]

Thank you Lostdragon, you explained it wonderfully... and now I must move on the overly excited one

 

Wow,

 

He didn't claim, he interviewed and they said...

  A good deal of the software was passed around, farmed out for finishing, differing ports as well as re writes and serious fixes... any number of people may have felt they did it when asked about it especially with a group working in decent software houses... if a substantial amount of coding was done, software was passed from on programmer to another as they moved on to another more important project or moved on to a completely new work place. What's the big deal? It also isn't the first time two people worked on the same project or both came up with their own start to a project and then the one that is going to get the job done on time is picked. Sometimes ideas from both are used, sometimes a programmer will continue with his own version even after the decision was made to go another way... for their own personal satisfaction. They use and share code as well as graphics or graphists. Let's not forget shared 6502 code bases for software either...

 

In this case there were a number of 'Atari' version... which happens when you have multiple platforms... 2600, 800 series XL/XE, 5200, 7800 or later ST etc.

It gets to be even more fun as a whole house goes down and offshoots of the same company and people pick up where they left off. So it starts at Atari or wherever, get contracted to company R for Roklan... and then gets finalized at ON TIME....

 

https://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index.php/On-Time_Software

https://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index.php/Roklan

this site has some of the information but there were others, and you might consider two people whom were heavily involved at or with Roklan are or were here at AA imparting what they remember or know of these things.

 

and since we've already posted up documents from Roklan and spoke to the players you might just realize the complexity of it... and that there wasn't anything to get excited about or pick up on...

 

Gyruss (US/CA Publisher: Parker Brothers) [Joe Gaucher]

Gyruss (US Publisher: Parker Brothers) [Jack Verson]

Gyruss (US Publisher: Parker Brothers) [Jack Verson]

The Atari 8-bit version was originally being developed by Roklan. Joe Helleson. and guess who.. and if you search the threads and web you'll find more background about a number of hand in this sort of thing, and yes it happens more than you think.

Gyruss (unreleased version) (Parker Brothers) [Anthony Weber]         Possible that Anthony was leaving... so this and rockball... well you get the picture... and this was-

Scrapped for the version by Jack Verson at On-Time Software

 

as you look around just this one site you will see notes that say more than one programmers claims they did this or that... and it's the tip of the iceberg... there are more than one version listed, and only one made official, one dropped, leaked or demo'd.... and then it changed and you get the official it won out or could be completed on time version.

 

I know that more of this very information is here on AtariAge as well as other sites.. please check out an elastasearch or site search and find the relevant information. There might even be more conflicts found, but a little thinking and some horse sense will get you close to what is or isn't.

Edited January 11, 2022 by _The Doctor__

[Tempest]

1 hour ago, _The Doctor__ said:

The Atari 8-bit version was originally being developed by Roklan. Joe Helleson. and guess who.. and if you search the threads and web you'll find more background about a number of hand in this sort of thing, and yes it happens more than you think.

 

So both Jack and Joe worked on the released PB version of Gyruss?  I just want to make sure my page has the correct info.

[_The Doctor__]

@Tempest

Jack Joe and Anthony... as to what the exact Roklan/On-Time mix is ... well leave that to the lawyers... Anthony had a problem with parker brothers and parker brothers had a problem with Anthony...  A bit of comparison and a little research is what you'd want to do so all is verified to the best it can be. Plenty of it is here on AA and the links to the other places are littered about, it isn't the first time the topic has come up so a good scrape and reconcile is in order. I will touch base with a couple people and revisit my pile this summer. Who knows maybe I have some disks and paper or Dutchman will have access to something that will have some more notes or progress reports, source as has been done before. I hope folks had grabbed the links that were left about this years ago... if the links are dead, maybe the wayback machine will help. Memory is a funny thing. Trust your memory but verify

I bet you I posted most of this stuff before anyway... de ja vu

 

How do you think a number of graphics and music from Anthony's were used in the released version? Did you notice the title screens being just about the same? Music the same... star fields the same.... Do the math.

Edited January 11, 2022 by _The Doctor__
correct spelling add @tempest add some info

[Mclaneinc]

8 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

something Purple Hampton says he and his team were responsible for. 

 

 

Purple Hampton, are we talking John K here?

 

Not sure who it's referencing but saw the Kremlin team mentioned, which John K either the boss or part of.

 

Me also wonders how many got the name joke..

Edited January 11, 2022 by Mclaneinc

[Lostdragon]

5 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

 

Purple Hampton, are we talking John K here?

 

Not sure who it's referencing but saw the Kremlin team mentioned, which John K either the boss or part of.

 

Me also wonders how many got the name joke..

James 'Purple' Hampton. 

 

In interviews, Jason Kingsley swears blind he and his brother Chris came up with the concept of having seperate  campaigns for the Colonial Marine, Alien and Predator species, in Jaguar AVP. 

 

 

But James Hampton has also gone on record saying it was something he (as producer) and his Atari Corporation team came up with and implemented. 

 

 

Considering Kingsley had already claimed he'd been responsible for coding Star Raiders on the A8 and has given 2 very different accounts as to how Rebellion were granted a Jaguar development licence (Atari had been impressed by the 3D graphics on the Kingsley's earlier PC title, Eye Of The Storm Vs they took a 3D demo to Atari UK looking to get a Falcon licence, Viking longboats Vs Dragon's, but were signed up to the Jaguar instead)... 

 

 

I know whom i am inclined to believe. 

 

 

As well as these incidents, we also some years ago, had an incident where Retrogamer Magazine allowed a Jr Artist to take credit for graphics work Jim Sachs had done on Amiga Defender Of The Crown. 

 

 

 

[Mclaneinc]

Made me laugh that he claimed to have coded Star Raiders..Dear oh dear, how did he think he was going to get away with that..

 

As for Retro Gamer, does not surprise me..

[Lostdragon]

33 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

Made me laugh that he claimed to have coded Star Raiders..Dear oh dear, how did he think he was going to get away with that..

 

As for Retro Gamer, does not surprise me..

The offending article itself. 

 

 

Of all the A8 games to lie about, he had to go for Star Raiders ?

Edited January 11, 2022 by Lostdragon

[+Psionic]

11 hours ago, Tempest said:

So both Jack and Joe worked on the released PB version of Gyruss?  I just want to make sure my page has the correct info.

I would doubt that, given that Joe Hellesen was in Chicago and Jack Verson was out in California.  If Jack had any help with the 8-bit version, it probably would've been from Cameron Shaffer.  But the only way to know that would be to ask him.

 

According to Dutchman2000, Joe Hellesen was indeed responsible for the C64 version of Gyruss, and this can be confirmed by looking at the source code.  On-Time Software subcontracted Windy City Software (which was Joe's company) to develop this port.  This makes sense and matches up with what Hellesen told me ten years ago.

[Mclaneinc]

19 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

The offending article itself. 

 

 

Of all the A8 games to lie about, he had to go for Star Raiders ?

 

Christ, he would have still been in his dad's ball bag then..

[Tempest]

Maybe he meant a different Star Raiders?  I mean claiming you wrote Star Raiders would be like claiming you wrote Pac-Man and expecting to get away with it.

[+Psionic]

Some rando British dude claiming Star Raiders?  Yeah...I don't know what that's all about.

 

In this case, I wasn't implying that Joe Hellesen or anyone else was lying about Gyruss.  I would just attribute it to a faulty memory.  It happens.  We're going back 35+ years here.

 

My point in all of this was simply that a major fault in these interviews is the lack of questioning and/or follow up when people say things that just don't make sense.  This is not the first time this has happened.

[_The Doctor__]

It's an interview not a news presser. Unless there is something unreasonable or glaring it's going to be fine and normally can be reasonably explained as has been done. We all realize the memory issues and listen/read through that lens, taken with a grain of salt. The rest is an exercise for the reader/listener.

[Lostdragon]

3 hours ago, Tempest said:

Maybe he meant a different Star Raiders?  I mean claiming you wrote Star Raiders would be like claiming you wrote Pac-Man and expecting to get away with it.

He sounds quite specific..

 

 

'I' d done Star Raiders on the Atari 800 ages ago". 

 

 

Not a Star Raiders type game, but Star Raiders 

 

Wish I had known of this claim years ago when we put Q's to him on RVG I would of asked him to explain it. 

 

 

To the best of my knowledge he's never been called out over it. 

 

 

Last time I contacted Rebellion, everything was dealt with by some P. R guy and you hit a brick wall, answers to questions were never forthcoming. 

 

 

[Wrathchild]

On 1/11/2022 at 6:59 PM, Mclaneinc said:

Me also wonders how many got the name joke..

Something battered/bruised & Cockney, similar to our PM (in surname and character) perhaps ? ?

[Mclaneinc]

Spot on

[youxia]

17 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

He sounds quite specific..

 

 

'I' d done Star Raiders on the Atari 800 ages ago". 

 

 

Not a Star Raiders type game, but Star Raiders 

 

Wish I had known of this claim years ago when we put Q's to him on RVG I would of asked him to explain it. 

 

 

To the best of my knowledge he's never been called out over it. 

 

 

Last time I contacted Rebellion, everything was dealt with by some P. R guy and you hit a brick wall, answers to questions were never forthcoming. 

 

 

To be honest, it's just a one-off sentence in a game mag interview. It could be that he was deliberately lying about this very particular game, but other explanations are also possible. It's the same with the other things, like the AvP campaign. I mean, he doesn't really need to lie about these things, because he's a very succesful designer/CEO (unlike that other person whose name rhymes with Spinnaker

[Lostdragon]

On 1/13/2022 at 1:00 PM, youxia said:

To be honest, it's just a one-off sentence in a game mag interview. It could be that he was deliberately lying about this very particular game, but other explanations are also possible. It's the same with the other things, like the AvP campaign. I mean, he doesn't really need to lie about these things, because he's a very succesful designer/CEO (unlike that other person whose name rhymes with Spinnaker

It's a curious one to be sure. 

 

 

We know at the time of the AVP Previews, Rebellion were a small, fledgling company and they were being briefed by Atari, so why Kingsley would at this stage in his career, choose to make the Star Raiders claim, I am honestly not sure. 

 

 

He was always very bullish about his teams abilities back then, AVP wasn't making the Jaguar sweat (well no, but at this point you'd yet to add Whittaker's frame rate killing A. I routines ☺️).. 

 

 

But it's only been in the post Jaguar era years i have seen him belittling Rebellion staff who were part of the company back then, claiming credit for the 3 separate campaigns in the game. 

 

With Rebellion having grown to the major force it is today, there's little need to behave like he sometimes does ?

[Lostdragon]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:21 PM, Mclaneinc said:

Made me laugh that he claimed to have coded Star Raiders..Dear oh dear, how did he think he was going to get away with that..

 

As for Retro Gamer, does not surprise me..

Update time. 

 

Found a random, later interview with both Chris and Jason Kingsley (Gamestm Retro compilation Bookzine, Volume

 

 

Chris Kingsley talks about home systems he and Jason had as kids, him getting into coding etc. 

 

 

Chris talked of the family getting a 48K Atari 800 and the game Star Raiders  being  a clear favourite of theirs they liked to play. 

 

 

Chris went onto say he wrote an action game, whilst experimenting with the hardware Player-Missile-Graphics. 

 

 

So there we have it, Jason and Chris loved Star Raiders as kids, only coding done for the Atari by either of them was non-commercial. 

 

Either Jason misquoted or Chris the far more sensible one when interviewed. 

 

Maybe both ?

Edited January 17, 2022 by Lostdragon

[Mclaneinc]

Methinks Jason has an overly active imagination

[nonprophet]

On 7/17/2021 at 10:07 AM, Savetz said:

Brenda Laurel, Atari Research
https://ataripodcast.libsyn.com/antic-interview-420-brenda-laurel-atari-research

Later she founded Purple Moon, a software company focused on creating games for young girls...

Kay,

This was a great interview, thanks for doing it!

 

It's too bad that there wasn't time for Dr. Laurel to talk about Dani Bunten Berry (AKA Dan Bunten) with whom she had collaborated; I remember you've asked previous interviewees to share their memories of Berry because you can't interview her yourself.

 

From https://www.carpeludum.com/dani-bunten-berry-tributes-anticlockwise-september-22-2001/#:~:text=From Brenda Laurel of Purple Moon:

Quote

Danielle Berry was a friend and collaborator. She worked with me on the gender project at Interval which gave rise to Purple Moon, and built the first prototype of “emotional navigation” in 1994. She also consulted on game design for us in 1995-6. Our first two games, Rockett’s New School and Secret Paths In The Forest, bear a dedication to Danielle in the credits. She was an inspiration, a wonderful creative partner, a brave person, and a dear friend. Without her help at the early critical stages, Purple Moon would not have come to be.

I remember her as a funny, intensely bright, curious person who would just not let things be. She questioned everything and when the answer didn’t satisfy her, she changed it. Danielle was a tall girl and easily caught the bouquet at Rob’s and my wedding. I miss her very much and will always honor her memory.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by nonprophet