Should Atari have attempted more updates of classic games on the Jaguar?

[Lost Dragon]

Ok, so we saw the likes of:Tempest, Breakout and Defender in the 2000 series, with Space War 2000 planned, Hoverstrike starting out as Battlezone 2000 before straying too far from original concept?, plus Missile Command 3D and we know Dactyl Joust was in development and Atari were looking at bringing Major Havoc 2000 to the Jaguar....

 

But would, as 'the press' seemed to ask for at the time, Jaguar updates to titles like:Marble Madness, Gauntlet, APB, Super Sprint, 720, Paperboy etc have really 'worked' on Jaguar? and if so:Who would you of had update them and what use of the Jaguar hardware would you have liked to of seen?.

 

I ask, as whilst Tempest 2000 was superb and i'm 1 of the few who seem to like Hoverstrike, i never went much on Defender 2000, never tried Protector :-(.

 

Fallen Angels seems to be a decent update to Rescue On Fract. and Battlesphere seems to be a 'modern day' Star Raiders, so it seems updates can work, but were the public really that interested in them?.

 

Discuss...

[+CyranoJ]

Polybius - by Paradox.

Edited April 7, 2015 by CyranoJ

[Lost Dragon]

I never tried N64 Paper Boy, that was High Voltage, was it not?, not sure how it played, but then i only found Paper Boy really worked in the arcades, not suited to home formats.

[Rybags]

No. No. No.

 

Recycling old titles just contributed to the downfall of Atari. The pattern started with the 5200 and including Super Breakout when Colecovision had Donkey Kong which is essentially a 5 year newer game.

The rot continued with 7800. Asteroids (PAL builtin) was ancient by the time 7800 finally made the mass market and even Pole Position II was showing it's age.

 

At least with the Lynx there did seem to be some new stuff. Jaguar, although Tempest 2000 is highly praised, didn't seem to bring much new to the table.

 

Look at practically every other console of the 80s until end of the 90s, almost all had a killer app or bunch of titles that were fresh or not available on the competition.

[+SabertoothRetro]

I think that they should have updated some other classics. Classic IP is classic IP. Every iteration of a Nintendo console gets a new Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Mario Kart, etc. Variations on a theme. Tempest 2000. Defender 2000, MC3D and Breakout 2000 are four of the better Jaguar titles. Atari definitely had other IP to mine and update.

 

Personally, I always wanted them to work with Atari Games to update some of the later arcade titles that were brought to the Lynx. Roadblasters, XYBOTS, Stun Runner come to mind. Also, updates of Asteroids, Centipede and Yars Revenge could have been cool. The challenge with updates to very old games is adding depth to a game while staying true to the original spirit. Tempest 2000 and MC3D did a fantastic job of this.

[Rick Dangerous]

PONG 4000 You are the ball!!!

[Atlantis]

Yes, all other consoles makes sequels to old titles on their new generation machines, so why not Atari too. I see it as a good strategy.

They would have, if things worked out better back then, as we can see what was in the pipeline. I don't think these titles would have saved them though.

[Lost Dragon]

Great responses, keep'em coming.

 

I've...mixed feelings..having blown £50+ on Defender 2000 and having come away non-plussed and Hoverstrike was something i grew to like...

 

I'd loved to have seen Dactyl Joust finished (but swish video footage does'nt mean game would of played as good as it looks).

 

I've never thought Stun Runner worked on the home formats, Lynx ver. technically outstanding but lot lost on small screen and feel game would of needed a lot of enhancements to give it lastability on an updated Jaguar version.

 

Major Havoc and I, Robot (2 titles that often crop up) i think would of been too 'obscure' from a commercial point of view.

 

Minter talked of how great a Jaguar version of Virus would of been...shaded polys etc, but controls might have taken a bit of reworking for jag pad...

 

 

Starglider 3, would of been better suited to the Jaguar than the Konix, but again, was it a big enough name?.

[ilaskey]

No, it was a mistake to do as many as they did. Rybags is bang on. It's cool now to release retro classics but back then it was just seen as Atari cranking out tired old games yet again. T2K worked but the rest were very much meh at the time. Heck, even the old games which they released on the ST were viewed as being a bit desperate and frankly embarassing but by the time the Jaguar arrived, it was really not what they should have been doing - essentially "Look! State of the art 64 bit hardware! And here's a bunch of 8bit games for it!"

[Willard]

I think they got most of the notable ones that made for good conversions.

 

Centipede 2000 was also being worked on too.

 

They just needed some good games. They totally missed the mark on what was popular at the time (good platformers, 2D fighters .etc) and squandered their chances to make games of a type that were about to become popular and show what the point of the technology was all about (fight for life, Checkered Flag, BIWN, Battlewheels, Skyhammer, Highlander, Zone Hunter)... those games should've gotten people enthusiastic about the Jaguar but instead they were cancelled or extremely disappointing.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Willard

[+LS650]

Good games are good games, whatever the concept.

[AtariBorn]

No. No. No.

 

Recycling old titles just contributed to the downfall of Atari. The pattern started with the 5200 and including Super Breakout when Colecovision had Donkey Kong which is essentially a 5 year newer game.

The rot continued with 7800. Asteroids (PAL builtin) was ancient by the time 7800 finally made the mass market and even Pole Position II was showing it's age.

 

At least with the Lynx there did seem to be some new stuff. Jaguar, although Tempest 2000 is highly praised, didn't seem to bring much new to the table.

 

Look at practically every other console of the 80s until end of the 90s, almost all had a killer app or bunch of titles that were fresh or not available on the competition.

 

 

I agree completely. I think Atari fell back on its coin-op titles like a crutch. The games were good but the direction that the industry was going in, called for something new, like Mario or Sonic or Crash.

 

It's only my opinion, but I think if Atari had focused more on establishing "the next big thing" and less on "what always worked in the past", things would have been much different. They had a machine that was more powerful than anything on the market at the time, with networking capabilities and yet they fell back on those worn out arcade titles, focusing on high scores and very little story line.

 

Don't get me wrong, they had some amazing remakes, but those games should have surfaced during the Jaguar's 2nd or 3rd generation titles, like bonuses...not system sellers. Imagine if Atari was dead set on pumping out a couple original RPGs, a couple action/adventure games that weren't ported from other systems or clones of other big sellers. It would have been righteous.

[Bill Loguidice]

I agree with some others on here that Atari focusing on updating more classic properties wouldn't have made much difference. Clearly what the Jaguar needed was a combination of blockbuster IPs and software that unequivocally showed how technologically superior it was to the 16-bit systems that were still the rage at the time. Instead, for the most part, the Jaguar received second- and third-tier IPs and unpolished software that had no real hope of impressing the average consumer and ultimately moving consoles.

As we talked about in one of the other countless Jaguar threads of similar subject, you can have lots of classic updates and port compilations when your library is already balanced out with regular AAA titles and the good kind of hype. It can't be the foundation of a mainstream platform.

EDIT: AtariBorn posted just before mine and more or less said the same thing.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Bill Loguidice

[Rick Dangerous]

Stun runner would have been sick on the jag. Sick I tell you. Just look at tube SE...

 

Someone should make it now, make only 50 copies, and sell them on Kevincals eBay store for $600 a pop. THERE IS A MARKET FOR THAT!!!!

[LynxJagLunatic]

I would have liked an updated version of Yar's Revenge.

[Clint Thompson]

More things like Black Ice/White Noise and less things like Pong 2000 - Agreed, Yar's Revenge would have been cool if they could have kep the dark/scary whatever it is... Mutant Storm on other platforms did a good job of quenching that thirst for me though.

[Christos]

I'll go by CyranoJ's comment. When the ST was released, Atari assigned Paradox (I think it has no relation to the current developer company called Paradox though there are some similarities in how their games are received) to convert some of their IP to the machine. It was a failure of epic proportions. Just play ST Tempest...

 

The problem is that the users by 1986 and much more by 1993 were interested in games that could offer a bit more, in terms of narrative and in terms of game mechanics and design, not just upgraded graphics and sound. It's easy to believe that it would have been interesting, especially when even promises of simple games with broken mechanics are cause for orgasms among jaguar fans, but it would have done little for the game playing population of 1993.

[+madman]

No. No. No.

 

Recycling old titles just contributed to the downfall of Atari. The pattern started with the 5200 and including Super Breakout when Colecovision had Donkey Kong which is essentially a 5 year newer game.

The rot continued with 7800. Asteroids (PAL builtin) was ancient by the time 7800 finally made the mass market and even Pole Position II was showing it's age.

 

At least with the Lynx there did seem to be some new stuff. Jaguar, although Tempest 2000 is highly praised, didn't seem to bring much new to the table.

 

Look at practically every other console of the 80s until end of the 90s, almost all had a killer app or bunch of titles that were fresh or not available on the competition.

Spot on. I think it made sense to re-do the arcade titles from the 2600 on the 5200 as the hardware was greatly improved in both sound and graphics, of course the controllers were another story. The Colecovision was bringing the arcade experience home and Atari needed to compete. The problem is they never really innovated after the 2600. The 5200 was just improved sound and graphics, but the same old story. Still a great system and worth collecting for, IMO. As for the 7800, they were releasing the same tired, one-screen arcade games when the NES and SMS had totally changed the home gaming experience. Was Scrapyard Dog supposed to compete with Super Mario Bros or Alex Kidd?

 

The Lynx I think was ahead of its time, it was technically superior to the Gameboy and Gear Gear, I still play the heck out of the Lynx it's one of my favorite retro systems. But facing reality, the Lynx just wasn't commercially successful. By the time the Jaguar came out, nobody cared about Atari and the games on the system didn't give anyone a reason to start caring.

[Warzard]

I, Robot 2000 would have been cool. Updated graphics and game play with bells and whistles like Tempest 2000.

[Atlantis]

I seem to be alone thinking it would have been a good idea. Guess Atari were on my side, and where did it take them...

Democracy has spoken, and I was dead wrong. =)

Edited April 9, 2015 by Atlantis

[AtariBorn]

I seem to be alone thinking it would have been a good idea. Guess Atari were on my side, and where did it take them...

Democracy has spoken, and I was dead wrong. =)

 

You're not wrong in thinking that. It should have happened but later on, after Atari established the Jaguar's place. If the Jaguar had its killer apps and Atari had gained some ground, we might have gotten a Midway's Greatest Hits, Atari Arcade Classics, a couple volumes of Namco Museum and maybe a couple compilation CDs of Atari Reboots.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

Actually, some press criticized Atari early on for their plans to convert some of their old IPs, Gamepro in particular although at the moment I do not recall the exact issue, late 93 IIRC. Fortunately Tempest 2000 was a nice surprise but if you look at their laughable "review" of Missile Command 3D in 1995, they were not warmed up to the Jag because of that effort or their other updates. It is hard to say if any old Atari IP could have changed the minds of reviewers at that point.

 

Maybe if all of the 2000/3D updates were released in late 1993 or early 94 then it might have made a difference in terms of initial impressions but one issue is that in terms of arcade conversions, people were not really clamoring for updates to 10+ year old games at the time. Consoles could quickly become defined by the quality of their recent arcade ports, the closer to arcade perfect, the better. Aside from those, people wanted something completely new, "next-gen". The Genesis grabbed the mantle of the "cool" console to own because of their many arcade ports, followed by original stuff that they had the money to market the snot out of, like Sonic. It was conversions of games like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter II that gave fanboys the bragging rights between the Genesis and SNES, among other things. One of the few games for the 32X that they pumped up was the arcade port of Star Wars. The PSX got a great boost out of ports like the Tekken series. I don't think it was much different as in '82 when the Atari 5200 came with Super Breakout as a pack-in and Colecovision had Donkey Kong - in the case of the Jaguar, it felt like Atari was behind the times.

 

Sure the Jag did have some arcade ports - Raiden, NBA Jam, Primal Rage, Dragon's Lair and Space Ace but only NBA Jam had hardcore prestige when it came along. Fabtek had already done Raiden II and Raiden DX by 1995 and Dragon's Lair is ported to everything anyways so that doesn't move the needle. Then you had games that obviously wanted to be like arcade games but those always get panned - Kasumi Ninja trying to be Mortal Kombat, Double Dragon V trying to be Street Fighter II, Fight For Life trying for Virtua Fighter, Blue Lightning trying to be Afterburner, Checkered Flag trying to be Virtua Racing. The problem in every single case was that the player would say "I would much rather play the game that this is trying to copy". That never bodes well for your system's reputation if it is the poor man's version of the good stuff. If they had nabbed something as an exclusive port, like MK3 or Area 51 then that would provided the most benefit to the console since those were fresh and popular properties. In the Jag's case, just getting MK3 out like it was supposed to do would have generated positive buzz but I doubt it would have been enough after the PSX came along. Overall, it would have been easier from a marketing perspective to say "Buy a Jaguar and play your favorite arcade games - NBA Jam, T-Mek, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Area 51, etc. etc." as opposed to "get a Jaguar to play 64-bit updates to some games that you might have played in the arcade 10-12 years ago!"

 

Now I do think that a balance is needed, that among the reasons that the 5200 and 7800 struggled was because they were a little too lopsided on port reliance, not following up with good original content after that (among other issues they had). I do think that Black ICE/White Noise had it been finished would have been one of those games to have made a difference; same with other games not released in the 93-95 era such as Iron Soldier II, Skyhammer, Alien Vs. Predator II, Phear, Phaze Zero, Freelancer 2150, Wing Commander III,Conan, Zzyorrxx II, BattleSphere, Need for Speed, Legions of the Undead, etc. The challenge is that when you have original IPs, it takes a lot more marketing money combined with good reviews and good word-of-mouth to get them to sell.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Shaggy the Atarian

[Bill Loguidice]

<snip>

 

Maybe if all of the 2000/3D updates were released in late 1993 or early 94 then it might have made a difference in terms of initial impressions but one issue is that in terms of arcade conversions, people were not really clamoring for updates to 10+ year old games at the time. Consoles could quickly become defined by the quality of their recent arcade ports, the closer to arcade perfect, the better. Aside from those, people wanted something completely new, "next-gen". The Genesis grabbed the mantle of the "cool" console to own because of their many arcade ports, followed by original stuff that they had the money to market the snot out of, like Sonic. It was conversions of games like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter II that gave fanboys the bragging rights between the Genesis and SNES, among other things. One of the few games for the 32X that they pumped up was the arcade port of Star Wars. The PSX got a great boost out of ports like the Tekken series. I don't think it was much different as in '82 when the Atari 5200 came with Super Breakout as a pack-in and Colecovision had Donkey Kong - in the case of the Jaguar, it felt like Atari was behind the times.

 

<snip>

 

Now I do think that a balance is needed, that among the reasons that the 5200 and 7800 struggled was because they were a little too lopsided on port reliance, not following up with good original content after that (among other issues they had). I do think that Black ICE/White Noise had it been finished would have been one of those games to have made a difference; same with other games not released in the 93-95 era such as Iron Soldier II, Skyhammer, Alien Vs. Predator II, Phear, Phaze Zero, Freelancer 2150, Wing Commander III,Conan, Zzyorrxx II, BattleSphere, Need for Speed, Legions of the Undead, etc. The challenge is that when you have original IPs, it takes a lot more marketing money combined with good reviews and good word-of-mouth to get them to sell.

 

The monumentally low sales figures clearly show that the only thing that would have made any difference in sales would have been exceedingly desirable software released in the first year, with a steady supply thereafter. For whatever reasons, the Jaguar never got off the ground, so there's really no scenario where late life games like Black Ice/White Noise would have turned the tide.

 

As for what they could have released in that first year to lead into true second generation product the second year, I think even a handful of AAA titles and high profile arcade conversions (not Raiden), would have gone a long way. In retrospect, it's clear the Jaguar's primary problem was demonstrating how much more powerful it could be than the 16-bit systems that were still in their primes. They needed at least a couple of "wow" titles in that first year to justify the thrust of the 64-bit marketing campaign. If that happened, the system wouldn't have become the running joke that it did within the industry and average gamer.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Bill Loguidice

[Shaggy the Atarian]

Well I mention BI/WN as a part of those other titles, in that together it would have made a difference. A finished BI/WN would have been revolutionary and the ambitious nature of what it offered would have at least pumped up Jag fans for some positive word-of-mouth buzz . Phear was impressive enough to get Nintendo to buy that up; Freelancer 2150 had some buzz, Phaze Zero was quite impressive, fans wanted a beat 'em up like Conan and AvP II was pretty ambitious from the design document and given the positive press the first got, it would have sold more Jag CDs at the very least. I also imagine that had Sega lived up to their part of that $90 million settlement and promise to make some Jaguar games, that would have done some turnaround. I'm not saying it would have made the Jaguar the PSX but perhaps it might have made that difference to get to the Jag 2. Of course we'll never know what scenarios would have worked.

 

We are in agreement that what mattered was initially. The impression I get from most people who soured on the Jaguar was that it happened for them in late 1994 after T2k, AvP and Doom came along. Avp got them to buy the console but then they bought some of the new games that hit the shelf right after - Checkered Flag and Club Drive. I think those games belted out plenty of damage to the Jag's reputation at the time and it was mostly downhill from there, also in part thanks to new consoles like the PSX, Saturn, "Ultra64", M2, etc. on the horizon.

[Lost Dragon]

:-) Ho well, at least this thread i created has gone down a lot better than i thought.....