The Official Turbografx 16 Thread!

[CZroe]

Yeah doubling up would not be good. I am sure nothing in the screen is designed to account for that.
 
I'm not sure why somebody would jiggle the cables while it was on, but I suppose that could certainly make for some flakiness. That'd probably be true of...all my systems. It's not a portable in the sense that you'd have it on while playing AND moving so...pretty much a non issue to me. Mine seems very snug and secure (HDMI popped in neatly and tightly).
 
I saw no flickering, artifacting, or flashing while playing Override or R-Type on my TV...the picture was rock solid. Maybe I'll try Bonk's Revenge on the big screen and see how the waterfalls look in stage 1. If anything, the picture is slightly soft. I'd suggest you see one in person if you can, I think you would be surprised.  

I'm sure the modern LCD looks great, especially compared to anything we had back then, but the scaler issues are well known. If it sources RGB things will look a bit better than the original composite or RF output, just like those SCART2HDMI boxes of TurboGrafx-16 HDMI cables with the same scaler chip... but that chip is intended to handle analog inputs for a modern digital display which is why it processes video the same way they do (treats 240p as 480i).

It isn't that it causes flickering and flashing, it's that it causes problems with intentional 60hz flickering and flashing that a game might use for something like simulated transparency. A flashing character or drop shadow might appear solid, invisible, striped, or all three (cycling) instead of see-through. Also, smooth scrolling is a 60hz effect which causes the image to go soft when moving on these scalers. At least that is hard to notice since it only happens when everything is moving and sharpens back up as soon as it stops.

This also means the image gets "double scaled" when you use the HDMI output on a display that needs to scale it again. Since both have frame buffers for motion-adaptive de-interlacing, neither are a zero-latency scaler like RAD2X, RetroTink 2X, OSSC, etc. This may add up to something noticable.

Even if it sources composite I'm sure it's just as serviceable as the Hyperkin HDMI cables available. Even so, I'd never blow $40+$10 on one of those (Hyperkin sells a $10 PC Engine adapter piece) when I could get a RetroTink 2X Mini that properly handles 240p for all my old consoles. I wouldn't have the attached LCD, of course, so it really comes down to that. I'm positive this thing wouldn't exist if the PC Engine LT didn't exist but at least that could be used with a CD-ROM² Interface Unit.

[+GoldenWheels]

27 minutes ago, CZroe said:

 

I'm sure the modern LCD looks great, especially compared to anything we had back then, but the scaler issues are well known. If it sources RGB things will look a bit better than the original composite or RF output, just like those SCART2HDMI boxes of TurboGrafx-16 HDMI cables with the same scaler chip... but that chip is intended to handle analog inputs for a modern digital display which is why it processes video the same way they do (treats 240p as 480i).

It isn't that it causes flickering and flashing, it's that it causes problems with intentional 60hz flickering and flashing that a game might use for something like simulated transparency. A flashing character or drop shadow might appear solid, invisible, striped, or all three (cycling) instead of see-through. Also, smooth scrolling is a 60hz effect which causes the image to go soft when moving on these scalers. At least that is hard to notice since it only happens when everything is moving and sharpens back up as soon as it stops.

This also means the image gets "double scaled" when you use the HDMI output on a display that needs to scale it again. Since both have frame buffers for motion-adaptive de-interlacing, neither are a zero-latency scaler like RAD2X, RetroTink 2X, OSSC, etc. This may add up to something noticable.

Even if it sources composite I'm sure it's just as serviceable as the Hyperkin HDMI cables available. Even so, I'd never blow $40+$10 on one of those (Hyperkin sells a $10 PC Engine adapter piece) when I could get a RetroTink 2X Mini that properly handles 240p for all my old consoles. I wouldn't have the attached LCD, of course, so it really comes down to that. I'm positive this thing wouldn't exist if the PC Engine LT didn't exist but at least that could be used with a CD-ROM² Interface Unit.

Well I saw no artifcating at all in two high action shooters with decent amounts of overlapping layers/scrolling, which I thought was very good. I mentioned Bonk's waterfalls because aren't they something that uses flickering to make the motion effect? I thought water like that often did. Figured they'd be a good check. Maybe Ninja Spirit ninja doubles.

 

There is no significant image difference based on movement or not. There was also no discernible lag, but I don't have 2ms hands either!

 

Best option for me as always is the Duo on the CRT. But the ability to drag this thing around on a battery pack and plug it into any HDTV is really nice. Comparing it to a retrotink set up seems to miss the point. But that's (understandably) always what every one of these conversations seems to turn into. Check one of the screens out yourself if you get a chance.

[CZroe]

Well I saw no artifcating at all in two high action shooters with decent amounts of overlapping layers/scrolling, which I thought was very good. I mentioned Bonk's waterfalls because aren't they something that uses flickering to make the motion effect? I thought water like that often did. Figured they'd be a good check. Maybe Ninja Spirit ninja doubles.
 
There is no significant image difference based on movement or not. There was also no discernible lag, but I don't have 2ms hands either!
 
Best option for me as always is the Duo on the CRT. But the ability to drag this thing around on a battery pack and plug it into any HDTV is really nice. Comparing it to a retrotink set up seems to miss the point. But that's (understandably) always what every one of these conversations seems to turn into. Check one of the screens out yourself if you get a chance.

I'm starting to think it may have the same scaler as the RetroTink 2X since people are claiming that it has no latency and all the flicker effects work right. Someone really has to try the Lens of Truth drop shadow test from 240p Test Suite! Do you have a TurboEverdrive?

If it is the same scaler chip as RetroTink 2X then it should output 480p. It's also the same one used in some Wii2HDMI adapters... the ones that support 240p component video for Virtual Console titles.

I recall the water in Bonk looking really fast but 60hz would make it look like both frames are flashing in place, semi-transparent, so it's likely slower. Water does often use the effect for transparency, like in Castlevania Dracula X Rondo of Blood. Obviously we can't try CD-ROM² titles like that on this thing until the Retro Game Restore HuDebug is released but that would be a killer package.

[+GoldenWheels]

16 minutes ago, CZroe said:

I'm starting to think it may have the same scaler as the RetroTink 2X since people are claiming that it has no latency and all the flicker effects work right. Someone really has to try the Lens of Truth drop shadow test from 240p Test Suite! Do you have a TurboEverdrive?

If it is the same scaler chip as RetroTink 2X then it should output 480p. It's also the same one used in some Wii2HDMI adapters... the ones that support 240p component video for Virtual Console titles.

I recall the water in Bonk looking really fast but 60hz would make it look like both frames are flashing in place, semi-transparent, so it's likely slower. Water does often use the effect for transparency, like in Castlevania Dracula X Rondo of Blood. Obviously we can't try CD-ROM² titles like that on this thing until the Retro Game Restore HuDebug is released but that would be a killer package.

errr....I have a knock off I think. It does have some weird demo software on there, but probably not test software. I could try and load it...

 

Do I dare see if the thing will still output video to my CRT via the normal  AV port, and run a test of the two side by side? There's no way that would work, right?

[CZroe]

errr....I have a knock off I think. It does have some weird demo software on there, but probably not test software. I could try and load it...
 
Do I dare see if the thing will still output video to my CRT via the normal  AV port, and run a test of the two side by side? There's no way that would work, right?

Not sure if it is wired correctly for doing simultaneous output without issue but even if it isn't it will probably work and just be too dim. The test should still work. Does the included composite cable turn off the display?

I did see some videos that show it uses a mono AV cable, which is how it fits audio, video, and ground onto a three pole connector. If you want stereo you are expected to get it from the headphone jack on the side.

Any flash card should be able to run 240p Test Suite. If you have the Smokemonster TurboGrafx/PC Engine ROM set it is in the Tools folder.

The test shows a picture of Major Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell with a flashing drop shadow sprite that you can move around on the screen using the D-pad. One button changes the shadow sprite to a Sonic the Hedgehog flying enemy sprite with a drop shadow. The shadow is supposed to flash at 60hz so you can still see the part of the Major it covers. It should not change when moving. If the video processor does bad scaling it may appear striped, solid, invisible, or change when moving (you might see stripes when moving down, for example). Every detail covered by the drop shadow is supposed to remain visible and unchanged except for the perceived shadow over it.

[+GoldenWheels]

1 hour ago, CZroe said:

Not sure if it is wired correctly for doing simultaneous output without issue but even if it isn't it will probably work and just be too dim. The test should still work. Does the included composite cable turn off the display?

Any flash card should be able to run 240p Test Suite. If you have the Smokemonster TurboGrafx/PC Engine ROM set it is in the Tools folder.

The test shows a picture of Major Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell with a flashing drop shadow sprite that you can move around on the screen using the D-pad. One button changes the shadow sprite to a Sonic the Hedgehog flying enemy sprite with a drop shadow. The shadow is supposed to flash at 60hz so you can still see the part of the Major it covers. It should not change when moving. If the video processor does bad scaling it may appear striped, solid, invisible, or change when moving (you might see stripes when moving down, for example). Every detail covered by the drop shadow is supposed to remain visible and unchanged except for the perceived shadow over it.

I'll check the output this weekend hopefully, and see if my card already has that test. Thanks!

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

question..  

 

I used to have a turbobooster but I wound up selling it (regret!).  I've gotten back a TG16 console an everdrive, and over the summer picked up a nice little CRT.  I had bought that little green composite output adapter from Hyperkin and it works but then I started reading how it could damage your system?  Does anyone have an experience with this?  I really love playing the tg on the crt, but I don't want to damage the system and i'd rather not use RF.      Maybe one more question..  I've been using the SNES mini's power block, is this bad?  Some people are saying yes and some no.. I havent had any issues and i've used the system quite a bit over the past year or so.  I think I finally got my unit last May I think.

 

 

[CZroe]

question..  
 
I used to have a turbobooster but I wound up selling it (regret!).  I've gotten back a TG16 console an everdrive, and over the summer picked up a nice little CRT.  I had bought that little green composite output adapter from Hyperkin and it works but then I started reading how it could damage your system?  Does anyone have an experience with this?  I really love playing the tg on the crt, but I don't want to damage the system and i'd rather not use RF.      Maybe one more question..  I've been using the SNES mini's power block, is this bad?  Some people are saying yes and some no.. I havent had any issues and i've used the system quite a bit over the past year or so.  I think I finally got my unit last May I think.
 
 

SNS-101 ("mini" SNES) uses the same power brick as the SNS-001 (original SNES), which should not even fit the TG16. The power brick from the Super Famicom (SHVC-001) and SFC "mini" is the same from the Family Computer and should work fine. An original Sega Genesis 1/Sega CD MK-1602 power adapter should also work fine (also used for Game Gear in Japan).

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

im sorry.. i had two different questions going on there.  I meant the power block that comes with the snes mini.. ive been using that on the tg mini.

[CZroe]

im sorry.. i had two different questions going on there.  I meant the power block that comes with the snes mini.. ive been using that on the tg mini.

 

You mean the USB adapter bundled with the SNES Classic Edition? LOL! That explains it.

 

I know the SNES Classic Edition is called "SNES Mini" in Europe and Austrailia but I avoid calling it that since a lot of people call the SNS-101 and SHVC-101 SNES consoles "Mini." Even then, the EU/AU version of the SNES Classic Edition doesn't include an adapter at all, much like the TG16 Mini, making me even more sure you had to be talking about original consoles. Since you never mentioned the TG16 Mini and the Everdrive could never work with that I figured you had to be talking about original consoles.

 

There are reports of some power supplies bricking the TG16 Mini or the controller ports but it seems that it's often those non-standard 3A+ microUSB power supplies intended for RaspberryPi. It specified 1A (1,000mA) so a standard half-amp or less adapter may not cut it, but most have been 1A or more since the old iPhone 1" cube, which would work perfectly. CAREFUL! There are a ton of counterfeit Apple USB adapter that look identical but have even killed people. While most name-brand 1A chargers are fine I would not use any with a non-standard quick charge feature, like Samsung Fast Charge 3.0 or Qualcomm Quickcharge or whatever. I would also avoid USB-C to microUSB cables since there are all kinds of things going on with USB-C Power Delivery and cables with proprietary non-PD quick charging.

 

Knowing the issues with this console, I might also suggest avoiding the ones that output 5.1v or 5.2v. They are probably fine but I wouldn't risk it. If the SNES CE adapter is 1A or more with 5v output, which I think it is, you should be good. It sounds like the perfect option. I've also used the one from the Genesis Mini, the Mega Sg, and one of my FireTV sticks. All worked great!

 

On another note, it seems that the power issue results in non-functional controller ports so I would avoid plugging and unplugging USB while the system is on in case it is particularly sensitive to power disruptions there.

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

thanks!  I generally use the nintendo USB blocks for all my mini systems just because it's easier.  I was using one that had Amazon printed on it, I think it was from a fire tablet I got a long time ago, but I may have been charging my phone with that. 

[Steven Pendleton]

15 hours ago, CZroe said:

Perhaps seeing it with a Print Booster will suffice? 

Just uploaded a couple hours ago:

 

 

 

SuperGrafx made the thumbnail in the second video but features in both.

lol the Print Booster! The PC Engine has so much weird stuff that nobody knows about. I found a ROM2 Amp again recently, but I've never found the Print Booster, the DUO Monitor, the Virtual Cushion, or the PC-KD863G monitor+PC Engine combo thing. They are all rare and expensive, though.

[CZroe]

lol the Print Booster! The PC Engine has so much weird stuff that nobody knows about. I found a ROM2 Amp again recently, but I've never found the Print Booster, the DUO Monitor, the Virtual Cushion, or the PC-KD863G monitor+PC Engine combo thing. They are all rare and expensive, though.

Nice! I've been on the lookout for a deal on a ROM² Amp for a while now. How much did you see it for and did it have the speakers?

[Steven Pendleton]

Just now, CZroe said:

11 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

lol the Print Booster! The PC Engine has so much weird stuff that nobody knows about. I found a ROM2 Amp again recently, but I've never found the Print Booster, the DUO Monitor, the Virtual Cushion, or the PC-KD863G monitor+PC Engine combo thing. They are all rare and expensive, though.

I've been on the lookout for a deal on a ROM² Amp for a while now. How much did you see it for and did it have the speakers?

I don't remember how much it was, but it was in its box, so I am assuming that it was complete with the speakers. I'm going back to Akiba on the 24th. If it's still there, I'll attempt to remember to check the price and if it has the speakers.

[+GoldenWheels]

Man....I passed on a boxed Rom amp for 400 a while back. I honestly wish I had grabbed it.

 

My Duo would look so sexy on top of that beast....

[Steven Pendleton]

10 minutes ago, GoldenWheels said:

Man....I passed on a boxed Rom amp for 400 a while back. I honestly wish I had grabbed it.

 

My Duo would look so sexy on top of that beast....

lol that's way too expensive!

 

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k466791372

[CZroe]

lol that's way too expensive!   https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k466791372

 

 

I dunno... It looks like that one is up for bids. Let's see where it ends up.

 

Also, international shipping is going to be painful!

 

Edit: OK, I see it's finished. That's actually one I had a tab already open for. Still, that's close enough that $400 for a tested one is reasonable.

 

[+GoldenWheels]

3 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

lol that's way too expensive!

 

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k466791372

Was in the states, and on ebay. Looked mint. This was at least 6-8 months ago, and the only one I have seen since is speaker-less, boxless, and untested. 400 may be too expensive for you, I agreed at the time. Now....well I changed my mind!

[+GoldenWheels]

On 1/15/2021 at 10:21 AM, CZroe said:

Not sure if it is wired correctly for doing simultaneous output without issue but even if it isn't it will probably work and just be too dim. The test should still work. Does the included composite cable turn off the display?

I did see some videos that show it uses a mono AV cable, which is how it fits audio, video, and ground onto a three pole connector. If you want stereo you are expected to get it from the headphone jack on the side.

Any flash card should be able to run 240p Test Suite. If you have the Smokemonster TurboGrafx/PC Engine ROM set it is in the Tools folder.

The test shows a picture of Major Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell with a flashing drop shadow sprite that you can move around on the screen using the D-pad. One button changes the shadow sprite to a Sonic the Hedgehog flying enemy sprite with a drop shadow. The shadow is supposed to flash at 60hz so you can still see the part of the Major it covers. It should not change when moving. If the video processor does bad scaling it may appear striped, solid, invisible, or change when moving (you might see stripes when moving down, for example). Every detail covered by the drop shadow is supposed to remain visible and unchanged except for the perceived shadow over it.

My card didn't have the test suite, but it did have several water wave/blur demos, and maybe I don't understand the point of these but....I think the flicker IS messed up as you said as these effects either do nothing or look like graphics garbage. I'll try to get that test suite on there.

[+GoldenWheels]

14 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

lol the Print Booster! The PC Engine has so much weird stuff that nobody knows about. I found a ROM2 Amp again recently, but I've never found the Print Booster, the DUO Monitor, the Virtual Cushion, or the PC-KD863G monitor+PC Engine combo thing. They are all rare and expensive, though.

The Power Console prototype is my personal PC-E weirdness grail, something I always wanted to find and sadly I know I never will. Saw one in a "look at me"  auction a few years ago that may or may not have been "real". I wish I had saved the pic. It was the best PC-E collection I ever saw. Dude had everything but the KD863G.

 

There's a Virtual Cushion and KD863G on ebay now (I think it is still there), and the print boosters show up now and then. Duo Monitors, there were the same one or two on there for a while (broken) but nothing lately. It's for sure been getting tougher to find the weirder PC-E stuff I think.

[CZroe]

5 minutes ago, GoldenWheels said:

My card didn't have the test suite, but it did have several water wave/blur demos, and maybe I don't understand the point of these but....I think the flicker IS messed up as you said as these effects either do nothing or look like graphics garbage. I'll try to get that test suite on there.

Well, I talked to someone yesterday and found that the HDMI port outputs 480p. The good news is that means we are probably dealing with the same scaler chip as some Wii2HDMI and RetroTink 2X. I have been unfairly harsh on this thing. That also means it sources composite video since it would need a RGB to YPbPr circuit to support RGB and there is no S-Video. I'm cool with that since the colors are wrong for RGB on PC Engine consoles anyway.

[Tanooki]

I still do enjoy reading all this stuff, and hell I forgot there was a printer of all things for the PCE too, nice.  I should have that art program on my pc everdrive though.

 

At this rate I decided I'm going to hold onto the core grafx 2 so it has stayed on the TV.  I'm still wanting someone to finally take my Duo off my hands, already lowered it a few times now down from $400-300(off ebay, 350 on there due to fees) and I get lots of traction, and nothing but flakes.

 

I wonder if someone would trade me a PCE GT for a Duo?  I know CD is far more popular than card anyway.  I'd so love to have one of them, recapped, preferably not with that original screen, so even if that popped it over the value of that Duo I'd pay the difference.:(

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

Are there any examples in the pc engine library that use graphical confetti?  I'm asking this because I have noticed over the years that confetti in video games always looks the same, seemingly regardless of generation.  It especially looks bizarre on more current systems.  The pieces of confetti are always the same colors too..  Does this ring true for anyone else or am i crazy?  I'm talking literal confetti here, not a graphic trick with that name.  It's especially pronounced in racing games.   I tried googling this but google sucks so bad now and only seems to bring up etsy garbage these days.

 

 

[turboxray]

3 hours ago, NeonSpaceBeagle said:

Are there any examples in the pc engine library that use graphical confetti?  I'm asking this because I have noticed over the years that confetti in video games always looks the same, seemingly regardless of generation.  It especially looks bizarre on more current systems.  The pieces of confetti are always the same colors too..  Does this ring true for anyone else or am i crazy?  I'm talking literal confetti here, not a graphic trick with that name.  It's especially pronounced in racing games.   I tried googling this but google sucks so bad now and only seems to bring up etsy garbage these days.

 

 

I'm not sure. But I imagine it's just sprites with a few different patterns (potentially flipped as well). I highly doubt it's 'pixel' based, at least for consoles of the 4th gen, simply because dev's didn't take the time to do that kind of stuff (and it can be slow if not optimized).

[Steven Pendleton]

So my friend and I were originally planning to go to Akiba, but we ended up just playing Neo Geo stuff at my house instead. Sorry, but no AMP-30 prices this time. I might go to Akiba tomorrow, but I have not decided since I might be getting some Neo Geo stuff, which will of course kill my disposable income for the next 3 months all at once.